jump number

[Malfunction 0]

Why do people pass judgment on your experience based solely on the number of jumps you have? I don't like being judged the way it is (Only God Can Judge Me), but having my information, research, knowledge, experience and personality judged simply because I have 341 jumps is stupid! Anyone else ever run into this?

Examples, being told 'NO' on a formation load because I have only 341 jumps and you should have 500 to make that kind of jump (when I had 250, I was told that you should have 300); or being told that my knowledge of gear is limited because I have 341 jumps ("keep in mind he only had 341 jumps" someone said - mind you, I have been in the sport since 96); or being told I can't jump a Diablo because I don't have enough jumps (someone ACTUALLY said that to me - I have been jumping a Stilletto 135 for over 2 years).

I say BULLSHIT! There is no magic number of jumps that means you know everything. There is no magic number that determines your investagative skills are more honed than others. You could have 50 jumps and be a VERY skilled rigger, or 2 jumps but be an incredible jump pilot.

Jump numbers are jump numbers. HOW MANY TIMES YOU HAVE GOTTEN OUT OF THE DAMN PLANE! Not what you know, how much you know, what your experience level is, and so on. People put too much emphasis on jump number and it starts with USPA's liscense ratings. 25 jumps for A liscense, 50 for B, 200 for C, 500 for D (or whatever they are now). Just this weekend I was in a conversation with a jumper that has 50 freefalls and another jumper was trying to talk him into a Viper170. The new jumper said, "I really like the begger, slower canopy." Does that mean he doesn't know what he is talking about because he only has 50 jumps? Or does it mean that he isn't qualified to jump with me because he only has 50 jumps? As a side note, his progression is MUCH better that many jumpers that have graduated and now have hundreds or even thousands of jumps. I have rarely seen a newbie like this learn to flat track so effectively (one of our more experienced jumpers and jumpmaster have said the same thing)

I may not be able to get on the plane much in my 7 years in the sport simply because I don't always have the money (and God forbid there is more to life than jumping), but does indicate I know nothing about the sport? It just so happens that I pack more than I jump, so I am at the dz almost every weekend, learning, reading, packing, thinking, investigating, tossing out 'what if' sceanarios, coaching jumpers, teaching static line classes, gearing up tandem passengers, manifesting. Since when does 341 jumps mean that I can't do any of that or that I have no knowledge in those fields?

Ok, Rant over.
I don't feel any better though.
Good Day.

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[Jayruss 0]

Well there is some validity in the jump number system. Thankfully with advents such as the tunnel, flying skills have improved rapidly among lower numbered jumpers. But there is something to be said for simply being in freefall and seeing what shit can really go down out there.

I can personally tell you that the old jump number system is being phased out, but is necessary for various accounts such as canopy loading etc. Hang in there, and the best thing to do is what I did. Just go out and prove how good you are to those telling you you can’t do it. Nothing like humble pie in their face!!

__________________________________________________
"Beware how you take away hope from another human being."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes

[chopchop 0]

hang around, jump more often.. prove your skills on less technical stuff and people will invite you on harder stuff.. Jump number is a very good ruler but some people adapt to the air quicker and some people never get all that good.

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[rehmwa 2]

I've held more credibility with currency - how many jumps of THIS TYPE have you made in the last year, rather than your career.

Also, I find quite a few of the huge jump number types not accepting new stuff readily - but maybe there is just a percentage like that at any experience level......

Give me someone hungry to learn, with about 300 jumps, and with the right practice, next year he'll be flying circles around that 'one guy' (you know who I'm talking about) who struts around with his wings on his forehead. I've got 3 (hopefully 4
On the other hand, give me that 300 jump wonder with a chip on his shoulder, and he'll be doing the same RW for the rest of his life - or he'll turn to sit flying solo and have the same result there too as it also applies to the other disciplines.

attitude is everything

Go take a tunnel camp and coaching (they have both RW and FF) this winter. Come back and fly circles around these guys. If you're not still the belle of the ball, you either have an attitude problem or they do. If you do, change. If they do, coach some promising new people. In a couple years, those original guys will be wishing they could do the stuff you and yours are doing every weekend.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

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Why do people pass judgment on your experience based solely on the number of jumps you have? I don't
like being judged the way it is (Only God Can Judge Me), but having my information, research, knowledge,
experience and personality judged simply because I have 341 jumps is stupid! Anyone else ever run into
this?

Welcome to what we call "The World". In "The World" the number of times a person has done something IS a very good indicator of their ability to do it better than someone with less.

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Examples, being told 'NO' on a formation load because I have only 341 jumps and you should have 500 to
make that kind of jump (when I had 250, I was told that you should have 300)

Sucks, but I bet there was a reason...Even if that reason was that group wanted to ensure a higher level of skill on that jump...And yes barring someone with a ton of tunnel time, I would bet on the guy with 500 jumps to be better than the guy with 200, and 90% of the time I would be right.

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or being told that my
knowledge of gear is limited because I have 341 jumps ("keep in mind he only had 341 jumps" someone said
- mind you, I have been in the sport since 96)

Time in sport does help with gear...Ya know what helps more? A riggers ticket. A guy with 300 jumps and riggers ticket will know more about gear than the guy with 500 jumps...Is it fair to say a guy with a riggers ticket knows more than a guy without? For that matter a rigger with 5000 packs is most likely better than the guy with 300 packs.....Oh shit its all about the numbers again!!!!

The people with more of X are better than people with less of X in almost anything.

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or being told I can't jump a Diablo because I don't have
enough jumps (someone ACTUALLY said that to me - I have been jumping a Stilletto 135 for over 2 years).

Well how many jumps is a better indication of if you can handle a canopy, not how long you have had it....

Funny again the more times you have used something the better you will be with it!!!

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I say BULLSHIT! There is no magic number of jumps that means you know everything. There is no magic
number that determines your investagative skills are more honed than others. You could have 50 jumps and
be a VERY skilled rigger, or 2 jumps but be an incredible jump pilot.

Yes, but if you have 50 jumps you might be a good rigger, but your RW will still suck. And just because you are a great rigger does not mean that you can turn points...Or just becasue you are a great pilot does not mean you know shit about headdown...

Compare Apples to Apples....5000 jumps does not make you a good rigger. But 5000 pack jobs most likley makes you better than they guy with 100. 50 jumps does not make you a good skydiver, but I would bet the guy with 5000 is better.

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Jump numbers are jump numbers. HOW MANY TIMES YOU HAVE GOTTEN OUT OF THE DAMN PLANE! Not
what you know, how much you know, what your experience level is, and so on.

It is exactly what your experience level is.....How can you be better than what you have done? It may not be what you know, but on average I'd bet the guy with 5000 jumps knows more than the guy with 5, 50, 500, or even 2,000 jumps.

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Since when does 341 jumps mean that I can't do
any of that or that I have no knowledge in those fields?

Who said it did, but I would put my money on the guy that has been in the sport 7 years and has 1000 jumps to know more.

I could be wrong, but 99% of the time I bet I'd be right.

This is an argument that people who feel they are being treated badly always use...Like it or not, jump numbers DO mean a lot. I hated it when I had 500 jumps, but it does not make it less true.

If you do X 100 times you will be better than the guy that has done X 5 time. This will hold true in 99% of the situations.....But then again everyone thinks they are ahead of the normal.

But its not true, someone has to be normal. Not everyone can be that 1%

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kansasskydiver 0]

There is a huge discussion on jump numbers and experience. In my opinion, you can make 1000 jumps in a year, but if you've only been around for a year, you haven't really had the true feeling for the sport and the people. Again, this is just my opinion, but I believe time in sport and jump numbers are correlated to experience

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!

[Ron 10]

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There is a huge discussion on jump numbers and experience. In my opinion, you can make 1000 jumps in a
year, but if you've only been around for a year, you haven't really had the true feeling for the sport and the
people.

True, you will not know the history or the culture, but I'd bet you would be more skilled than the guy with 500 jumps over 10 years. Or for that matter the guy with 1000 jumps over 10 years. You will not have the same knowledge, but you will have better skills.

And I'd bet the guy that has been around 10 years has more Knowledge than they guy that has been around a year.

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Again, this is just my opinion, but I believe time in sport and jump numbers are correlated to
experience

Well I would put it like this.....

You can spend 20 years and zero jumps on a DZ and have knowledge, but not skill.

You can do 1,000 jumps in a year and have very little knowledge, but have mad skill.

But I would bet all the time on the guy that has been around longer and has more jumps to have more knowledge and skill than either...And this is experience.

It takes both, one does not make up for the other.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TEB6363 0]

***You can spend 20 years and zero jumps on a DZ and have knowledge, but not skill.

You can do 1,000 jumps in a year and have very little knowledge, but have mad skill. [\quote]

It also depends on how you present your knowledge and/or skill.

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[Ron 10]

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It also depends on how you present your knowledge and/or skill.

Explain please?

You have skill or you don't...You have knowledge or you don't.

And skill or knowledge is subjective. An AFF I with 1,000 jumps has more skill with students and more knowledge of students than me at 3,000 jumps.

A rigger with 100 packs knows more than me about gear.

But I coach 2 guys in 4way with 6,000 jumps (one was on the 300way), and I know a guy with 10,000 that will listen to me about 4way.

I however know almost nothing about headdown, and a guy with 100 Freefly jumps I am sure could teach me a few things.

Now you can pretend you have more skill than you do, or know more than you do. But thats a different subject.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TEB6363 0]

>>Explain please?

Just what you said, I can have over 1K tandems... and I don't know shit about free flying.

So, it depends on how I interact with the other jumpers. E.G. I don't go to a group of freeflyers and ask to participate and then tell them how the jump will work - because I don't have the skill or knowledge for that.

However, if someone comes to me and ask how to work on the skills to pass his level 5, I can help with that.

Just saying, that how you present your knowledge or skill has a lot to do with how you might be received.

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[Malfunction 0]

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You can spend 20 years and zero jumps on a DZ and have knowledge, but not skill.

You can do 1,000 jumps in a year and have very little knowledge, but have mad skill.

You and I start at the same spot. 0 years in the sport, 0 jumps. Over the last 5 years, you have 1000 jumps, I only have 300. Over the last 5 years, I have packed 2000 sport rigs, watched 100 reserve repacks and packed 800 tandems. You have only packed your own.

It would be logical that I know a bit more about gear than you do. On your 1000 jumps, you packed maybe 3 different rigs. In my 2000 packs, I have packed 10 different rigs, plus 800 packs on 5 different tandem rigs, plus watched 10 different reserve rigs being packed.

I tell you something about gear, and the first words from you are "keep in mind, he only has 300 jumps." You have no idea of the knowledge I posess because you don't know the work I have done with different gear.

You tell me that on a 4 way exit out of an Otter, I have to do a certain thing so I don't funnel the exit. You have more skill than me. The first words out of my mouth aren't "keep in mind, he has only packed 3 different rigs."

That make sense?

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[CanuckInUSA 0]

With so many different disciplines in this sport, it's only natural that some people will have more knowledge and skill than others who don't specialize in a given area.

I believe that jump numbers and years in the sport equate to some sort of experience level (ie: knowledge about something). But shear jump numbers as well as time in the sport don't always equate to talent. Granted, the more some one does something and the longer they do it, the greater chance that they will have some talent in a given discipline. But there are some people (I'm not one of them) who are naturals in this sport.

Arrogance ... well that's another story.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TEB6363 0]

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The first words out of my mouth aren't "keep in mind, he has only packed 3 different rigs."

That is good... You should keep that one in mind next time some "skygod" starts to talk shit...

However, you are correct. Some 'expert' jumper would be rude to say something about your equipment knowledge, especially in front of people.

When I graduate someone from AFF progression, I refer them the the chief packer for packing lessons. That way, the "lines" do not get crossed.

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[freeflygoddess 0]

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Just saying, that how you present your knowledge or skill has a lot to do with how you might be received.

I agree. I for one have only done freeflying since getting off of student status. Even my jumps after my levels were all geared toward freefly. I did tracking dives and a lot of flying on my back. But just because I have x number of jumps does not make me good at RW. I don't know anything about RW. The only time I am on my belly is at pull time...lol. Any ways, I am looking forward to learning RW and becoming a well rounded skydiver. I do believe that the ones with the most skills are the ones with a lot of jumps doing all asspects of this sport. Meaning jumper A has 1000 jumps freeflying, jumper B has 1000 jumps RW, jumper C has 1000 jumps both RW and freeflying combined. Who would have better skills. I think jumper C because he/she would have experiance in both and experiance in both compliments one an other. I for one am thinking of learning RW to better my freeflying skills.

[Flygator 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sucks, but I bet there was a reason...Even if that reason was that group wanted to ensure a higher level of skill on that jump...And yes barring someone with a ton of tunnel time, I would bet on the guy with 500 jumps to be better than the guy with 200, and 90% of the time I would be right.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree totally with the number of jumps system. I jump with guys with thousands of jumps and of course they are much better than me. I even jump with guys/gals that have 500-600 jumps and they just have a greater knowledge than I do. I have jumped with jumpers that have more jumps than me that totally suck!!! No names mentioned...

The secret to life is not arriving at the grave in a well preserved body but sliding in sideways completely worn out yelling "holy crap" what a ride!!!

[mjosparky 4]

Numbers can tell the story or hide the story. Does someone have 1000 jumps or does he/she have 1 jump repeated 1000 times? There is a big difference. As far as all that packing, without a riggers ticket, it means you have packed a lot of parachutes. That does not mean you understand the differences in the systems, how they are built and what makes them work. Experience is acquiring both skills and knowledge. Skills may come quickly but knowledge usually takes time.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Skyrose7 0]

I guess I don't see what the big deal is. If you are confident in your skill level, get the jumps required to do whatever and then show these people up. Getting defensive about someone questioning your skill level due to your number of jumps doesn't sound like you are very confident in your skills. Why do you care? Getting pissed will get you nowhere unless you use it as motivation to show these people how good you think you are.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.
MaryRose

[dropdeded 0]

As far as jump #s, and an example that applies to me. I have 27 jumps now, I did my first almost 3 years ago with lots of time between and several recurrencies. I have a friend that did # 21 yesterday, he has only been jumping for just under 2 months. He hasnt been "around the sport" as long as me, but I have had next to zero progression and he is progressing at a very good pace. I know this only applies to this topic in a minimal way, but this, in my opinion shows me that even with low jump #s, the numbers are just that, numbers that tell me how many times I have jumped from a semi-decent aircraft, not how well I perform in the air.
Just a lowtimers input, as it applies to me

Have a nice freekin day, permission...*GRANTED*

dropdeded

------------------------------------------
The Dude Abides.
-

[mfrese 0]

The other factor that people tend to look at is currency, and it may be a bigger factor than jump numbers OR total time. I just spent the past weekend fucking up a couple 6-9 way RW jumps due to the fact that I spent the last 6 weeks either freeflying or being ballasted by tandem passengers. Took me about three jumps to get back in the groove.
If you tend to frequent the same DZ (or DZs), and make it clear that you want to be part of the regular RW crew there, you should be able to get in on the dives you want if people know you and know your skill level, jumps numbers be damned. If you're at a new DZ, sorry, you're probably going to be judged unfairly based on jump numbers until you get to be a part of the regular crowd. It sucks, but unless you've got the rep of a Roger Ponce or Dan BC, it's the price you have to pay. We've all been there, we'll probably all be there again...

Iceman

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[Ron 10]

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I tell you something about gear, and the first words from you are "keep in mind, he only has 300 jumps." You
have no idea of the knowledge I posess because you don't know the work I have done with different gear.

Im not saying Ray was right to bring that up...But I would have brought up the fact you don't have a riggers ticket...In my opinion, I am going to listen to the guy with the riggeres ticket when it comes to gear.

But, YOU brought up the whole not getting a load thing when you didn't have the jumps....So 99% of the time Jump numbers does equal skill in certain types of skydiving.

I have 3,000 jumps, but only around 100 tandems...So I listen to the guys with 1,500 jumps, 900 of them Tandems when it comes to Tandem jumps....But Im not going to give him the same level of 4way respect that a guy with 1,000 4way jumps has.

Now I have one example of a guy with mostly video jumps that is a good 4way jumper....But its not the average.

And I would listen to you about gear to a point...But I am going to listen to a rigger first. FWIW, my rigger has over 5,000 pack jobs...And I listen to her more than I listen to the 100 pack wonder. And I listen to the 100 pack wonder more than I listen to myself.

But jump numbers are a great way to gauge a persona skills and experiences....For those that preach that tunnels are reducing that...Yep, I have a teamate that had 800 jumps, and could fly circles around me....He is dead now since he didn't handle a mal correctly....So one aspect does not translate to all areas....

So when it comes to skill i the air and under canopy...Im still using raw jump #'s...It works.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pyke 0]

I agree with your rant!!

I can relate to the jump numbers thing only too well - but there is a lot to be said for proving yourself!!

Luckily, I can say that I have visited 2 seperate dz where I was not known at all, but upon hearing my jump numbers was relegated to the "smaller" RW groups. Luckliy - both of those groups happened to include well-respected members of those dz's who upon landing - made a point to announce how well I flew. The very next load, I was asked to participate in one of the larger formations - and we pulled that one, and another couple off!

Now, this may come across as a big "pyke pats himself on the back" session, but it was merely to point out that if you can fly your slot, and perform your piece of the puzzle in the sky - then you'll gain the respect of the "gods" and not have too many more problems!! I was fortunate in my two experiences, but I've got countless others where I was not so lucky.

All I can suggest - is hang in there. "Wisdom in Patience There Is" - Yoda

Kahurangi e Mahearangi,
Kiwi, RB #926, AFF-I, FAA Snr. Rigger, RN/BSN/Paramedic

[Malfunction 0]

well put.

i agree.
Ruins my argument, though.

taking donations for a riggers ticket!

(just synicism, no offense)

Good Day.

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[jlmiracle 7]

Like Ron said, it sucks, but also its reality. I had encountered it many many times and it seemed like the bar is raised all the time and you can't catch up. Well, I'm hear to tell you, you can, but making an average of less than 50 jumps per year over 7 years isn't going to get you there very fast.

Currency is a big big deal. If these up jumpers see you out there all the time, "putting your time in", they are more likely to ask you to jump. Also, you made a comment about you were once an asshole, well, I hate to tell ya, first impressions mean alot.

Don't give up, keep jumping and you WILL get on a one of the "good" loads.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Malfunction 0]

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you made a comment about you were once an asshole

Where did you read that?

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[jlmiracle 7]

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Quote

you made a comment about you were once an asshole

Where did you read that?

Nope, that would be me, Sorry, different person, different post. I'm the asshole. I read too many threads at one time and the heat down here is melting my brain and everythingisrunningtogether.

Judy

Sorry again.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.