pds 0 #126 August 14, 2003 tonto, who is that adorable little elf in your avatar pic?namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #127 August 14, 2003 She's a precious little gift from Duncan and Sue. She calls me "dad." I think that's pretty cool. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #128 August 14, 2003 that so rocks. and it makes me just a little bit happyi think i believe in god now.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #129 August 14, 2003 QuoteI'm thinking you got that name from drinking beer the fast way. Not a beer drinker... but good guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #130 August 14, 2003 QuoteI really like religious studies, but I can never get a Christian to engage in conversation regarding the relationship between the sacrifice of Christ and the ancient sacrificial practices that preceded it. That's because most of them don't read or study the Old Testament. Absolutely, 100% correct that there is a relationship...what do you want to know? Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice to end all sacrifices...he was the scapegoat for the entire world. The concept of a scapegoat is a biblical one, not many people know that. Check out Leviticus 16. He was the ultimate guilt offering. Usually done on the day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, the concept of Jesus offering himself during Passover (when God spared the Jews) is significant, as well. I'd love to answer your questions...or did you just want to find a Christian that admitted it? I actually think it's unfortunate that most Christians only study the New testament, since so much of what is in there makes a hell of a lot more sense when you understand the old testament. AndiNever meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #131 August 14, 2003 Which is my argument for multiple Gods. If you've read both Old and New Testament, there's a world of difference between Old Testament's (New god) Fire and Brimstone, pillars of salt (for a look...) and flooding the world, and the "love one another" approach. Either the dude grew up BIG TIME and overcame his impulse control problem, or was replaced for just being too abrasive. He also backed WAY off on the miracle stuff. Now if it is the same God, and he grew up, then why's he so angry when Islam gets going in 600 ACE wanting to stone people and chop off their hands? Budha. Now there's the dude. No God, just try and be nice and you'll see, you'll feel better. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #132 August 14, 2003 QuoteQuoteYes I believe in God.. I talk to him every day.. And whaddaya mean I don't support your system? I go to court when I have to.... when theres a new way I'll be the first in line.... discussion is not argument, fear of open discussion is often a sign of insecure beliefs____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #133 August 14, 2003 Quotewhen theres a new way I'll be the first in line.... And it better work this time. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luv2Fall 0 #134 August 14, 2003 Yes, I believe and I believe in the atonement. Difference between OT & NT.............different dispensations......ways of "governing". A lot can be better understood of the NT by studying the OT. To me, after having (OMG - ya now know) studied for the ministry a year, my Christianity is a personal thing....very personal. I no longer engage in "organized religion" by way of public worship or supporting its causes for whatever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
txblondie 0 #135 August 14, 2003 As for Jesus ... Why would God want his son to be sacrificed? Why would he require the sacrifice of animals? Evangelicals believe that animal sacrifice will re-emerge in Israel in the last days. Where did this practice originate? Well it occurs in many ancient cultures. Blood is required to appease a violent god. With limited knowledge of the weather, disease, geography, astronomy, etc. it was believe that sacrifice was the only way to prevent his wrath. ------------------------------------------------------- Issue #1-God didn't WANT his son sacrificed, it was necessary for the souls of sinful human kind; Adam gave up a perfect life. To redeem human kind for his disgrace, an equally perfect human had to be sacrificed. Only Jesus was perfect. Before then, the animal sacrifices were for the same reason; to atone for sinfulness. Not because God is a violent God. And it was not the blood he required; it was the burning of the animal. Big difference. ------------------------------------------------------- If you read the old testament you will see that God speaks to man through his heart. Other organs are referred to as the seat of different emotions, such as courage, even thought. There is no mention of the brain because the ancients had no knowledge of the brain. ------------------------------------------------------ What??? You've lost me there... ------------------------------------------------------ If you think it through, it is apparent that the biblical notion of God's relationship to man, the concepts of sacrifice and salvation, etc. are just the beliefs of primitive man. There is little else in the body of ancient knowledge that is still held to be true, but for some reason people think that 3000 year old religious beliefs are still valid. --------------------------------------------------------- Explain how little of ancient knowledge from the bible can be held true when the bible mentions such things as the world being round and hanging upon nothing before that was a proven fact or even an accepted theory. It is because you do not believe in God that you don't feel the information is valid, not vice versa. There is plenty of information available to prove the exact opposite of your point. ***************************************** Blondes do have more fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #136 August 14, 2003 QuoteExplain how little of ancient knowledge from the bible can be held true when the bible mentions such things as the world being round and hanging upon nothing before that was a proven fact or even an accepted theory. If that's the case, then the Catholic Church wouldn't have seen the need to pesecute those who theorized that the world was round. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #137 August 14, 2003 Well, actually the world is spheroid-shaped (not round, which is 2-dimensional). Sorry, that's the geek in me speaking. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #138 August 14, 2003 I am a supporter of the more modern religions. I think that wearing hats with horns and stealing attractive women from the English is a good way of life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites txblondie 0 #139 August 14, 2003 QuoteQuoteExplain how little of ancient knowledge from the bible can be held true when the bible mentions such things as the world being round and hanging upon nothing before that was a proven fact or even an accepted theory. If that's the case, then the Catholic Church wouldn't have seen the need to pesecute those who theorized that the world was round. Quote from the Standard Bible: [22] It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in; Where the original Hebrew translated "circle" refers more specificly to "ball" or "sphere". ***************************************** Blondes do have more fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,049 #140 August 14, 2003 >Where the original Hebrew translated "circle" refers more specificly to "ball" or "sphere". Careful with going through old translations. In one such case in the new testament, "young woman" was translated as "woman" in some places and "virgin" in others - and an entire religion went in a slightly different direction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites txblondie 0 #141 August 14, 2003 Quote>Where the original Hebrew translated "circle" refers more specificly to "ball" or "sphere". Careful with going through old translations. In one such case in the new testament, "young woman" was translated as "woman" in some places and "virgin" in others - and an entire religion went in a slightly different direction. Yes, that's the beauty of "freedom of religion", too... I'm simply trying to make the point that, regardless of the "facts" people can come up with to support atheism, others can come up with just as many to prove the Bible is accurate. Besides, the claim against ancient intelligence is unfounded, as King Solomon, a biblical author, is still accepted as one of the most intelligent men ever to walk the earth. I see your point...but I wasn't saying that everyone interpreted it the same way, just what the literal translation is most widely accepted to mean. A side note--Hebrew frequently used the same term to mean several different things. The terms for "earth" and "world" are used with several different meanings throughout the bible... ***************************************** Blondes do have more fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #142 August 14, 2003 Sitting here, in this age, sphere makes sense. Easy to explain. Think of this... back in the day, you are explaining this to a guy whose day job is bumping goats on the butt with a stick. You say the world is a sphere. He says, how do I keep from falling off? Other questions, how do the seasons change? When do I plant? What social rules do we need to keep from killing each other? Simple answers for simple people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #143 August 14, 2003 QuoteEvangelicals believe that animal sacrifice will re-emerge in Israel in the last days. Where did this practice originate? Hajj? They're killing an awful lot of animals there each year (over 700,000 last year). Of course they kill a fair number of humans by way of stampedes too, so at least the deaths are somewhat distributed between species (though nowhere near evenly). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites txblondie 0 #144 August 14, 2003 QuoteSitting here, in this age, sphere makes sense. Easy to explain. Think of this... back in the day, you are explaining this to a guy whose day job is bumping goats on the butt with a stick. You say the world is a sphere. He says, how do I keep from falling off? Other questions, how do the seasons change? When do I plant? What social rules do we need to keep from killing each other? Simple answers for simple people. Some people explained those with multiple gods; the authors of the bible believed in a single god, who gave them those answers, which are recorded in the bible... I still wouldn't call them simple people; they were simply not as advanced in technology and were unable to study many things as in depth as we are today. Why do people in general believe that time means people were stupid 3000 years ago? If they were really stupid, we wouldn't be where we are today. ***************************************** Blondes do have more fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #145 August 14, 2003 QuoteI still wouldn't call them simple people; they were simply not as advanced in technology and were unable to study many things as in depth as we are today. Why do people in general believe that time means people were stupid 3000 years ago? If they were really stupid, we wouldn't be where we are today. Nowhere did I equate simple with stupid. Quotewere simply not as advanced in technology That is my definition of simple. Not complex. Not advanced. People 3000 years ago had simple lifestyles. That said. I do not believe that they had the level of knowledge that would allow them to understand gravity or the earths rotation. You have to explain very complex topics at the level that the listener can understand. Try saying "disease is caused my micro-organisms that you can't see...". It wouldn't help much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites txblondie 0 #146 August 14, 2003 You have to explain very complex topics at the level that the listener can understand. Thus "circle" instead of "sphere". I understand your point, and I'm not saying you are wrong! ***************************************** Blondes do have more fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
txblondie 0 #139 August 14, 2003 QuoteQuoteExplain how little of ancient knowledge from the bible can be held true when the bible mentions such things as the world being round and hanging upon nothing before that was a proven fact or even an accepted theory. If that's the case, then the Catholic Church wouldn't have seen the need to pesecute those who theorized that the world was round. Quote from the Standard Bible: [22] It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in; Where the original Hebrew translated "circle" refers more specificly to "ball" or "sphere". ***************************************** Blondes do have more fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,049 #140 August 14, 2003 >Where the original Hebrew translated "circle" refers more specificly to "ball" or "sphere". Careful with going through old translations. In one such case in the new testament, "young woman" was translated as "woman" in some places and "virgin" in others - and an entire religion went in a slightly different direction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
txblondie 0 #141 August 14, 2003 Quote>Where the original Hebrew translated "circle" refers more specificly to "ball" or "sphere". Careful with going through old translations. In one such case in the new testament, "young woman" was translated as "woman" in some places and "virgin" in others - and an entire religion went in a slightly different direction. Yes, that's the beauty of "freedom of religion", too... I'm simply trying to make the point that, regardless of the "facts" people can come up with to support atheism, others can come up with just as many to prove the Bible is accurate. Besides, the claim against ancient intelligence is unfounded, as King Solomon, a biblical author, is still accepted as one of the most intelligent men ever to walk the earth. I see your point...but I wasn't saying that everyone interpreted it the same way, just what the literal translation is most widely accepted to mean. A side note--Hebrew frequently used the same term to mean several different things. The terms for "earth" and "world" are used with several different meanings throughout the bible... ***************************************** Blondes do have more fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #142 August 14, 2003 Sitting here, in this age, sphere makes sense. Easy to explain. Think of this... back in the day, you are explaining this to a guy whose day job is bumping goats on the butt with a stick. You say the world is a sphere. He says, how do I keep from falling off? Other questions, how do the seasons change? When do I plant? What social rules do we need to keep from killing each other? Simple answers for simple people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #143 August 14, 2003 QuoteEvangelicals believe that animal sacrifice will re-emerge in Israel in the last days. Where did this practice originate? Hajj? They're killing an awful lot of animals there each year (over 700,000 last year). Of course they kill a fair number of humans by way of stampedes too, so at least the deaths are somewhat distributed between species (though nowhere near evenly). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
txblondie 0 #144 August 14, 2003 QuoteSitting here, in this age, sphere makes sense. Easy to explain. Think of this... back in the day, you are explaining this to a guy whose day job is bumping goats on the butt with a stick. You say the world is a sphere. He says, how do I keep from falling off? Other questions, how do the seasons change? When do I plant? What social rules do we need to keep from killing each other? Simple answers for simple people. Some people explained those with multiple gods; the authors of the bible believed in a single god, who gave them those answers, which are recorded in the bible... I still wouldn't call them simple people; they were simply not as advanced in technology and were unable to study many things as in depth as we are today. Why do people in general believe that time means people were stupid 3000 years ago? If they were really stupid, we wouldn't be where we are today. ***************************************** Blondes do have more fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #145 August 14, 2003 QuoteI still wouldn't call them simple people; they were simply not as advanced in technology and were unable to study many things as in depth as we are today. Why do people in general believe that time means people were stupid 3000 years ago? If they were really stupid, we wouldn't be where we are today. Nowhere did I equate simple with stupid. Quotewere simply not as advanced in technology That is my definition of simple. Not complex. Not advanced. People 3000 years ago had simple lifestyles. That said. I do not believe that they had the level of knowledge that would allow them to understand gravity or the earths rotation. You have to explain very complex topics at the level that the listener can understand. Try saying "disease is caused my micro-organisms that you can't see...". It wouldn't help much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
txblondie 0 #146 August 14, 2003 You have to explain very complex topics at the level that the listener can understand. Thus "circle" instead of "sphere". I understand your point, and I'm not saying you are wrong! ***************************************** Blondes do have more fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
digurman 0 #147 August 14, 2003 QuoteQuoteI really like religious studies, but I can never get a Christian to engage in conversation regarding the relationship between the sacrifice of Christ and the ancient sacrificial practices that preceded it. That's because most of them don't read or study the Old Testament. Absolutely, 100% correct that there is a relationship...what do you want to know? --------------------------------------------- Ok. that's what I'm talkin' about. Actually I have studied the blood convenant, passover, and Christian theology. It was my first major. I spent two years studying the bible daily - especially the old testament. Most of the OT concepts can be found in even earlier Sumerian writings. Also, the OT was written over several centuries by hundreds of different scribes. There is no reason for anyone to consider it the word of god. I do not believe that there is a force in the cosmos that instructed the earliest civilized humans to burn animals and then decided that his son would be the "ultimate" sacrifice. I believe that primitive priests cooked up this notion, mainly to put meat on the table. Jesus wasn't the only guy to ever hang on a cross and he wasn't the only one to have a religious following. Had it not been for Constantine declaring Christianity the state religion under threat of death, the Jesus cult would have gone the way of the Branch Davidians. Words aren't real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites digurman 0 #148 August 14, 2003 Hajj? They're killing an awful lot of animals there each year (over 700,000 last year). Of course they kill a fair number of humans by way of stampedes too, so at least the deaths are somewhat distributed between species (though nowhere near evenly). Blues, Dave Good point. I wish we could set aside a large desert area like West Texas where Christians could live in peace, burn animals and virgins, speak in tongues, drink blood, etc. and leave the rest of us alone. Words aren't real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
digurman 0 #148 August 14, 2003 Hajj? They're killing an awful lot of animals there each year (over 700,000 last year). Of course they kill a fair number of humans by way of stampedes too, so at least the deaths are somewhat distributed between species (though nowhere near evenly). Blues, Dave Good point. I wish we could set aside a large desert area like West Texas where Christians could live in peace, burn animals and virgins, speak in tongues, drink blood, etc. and leave the rest of us alone. Words aren't real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
digurman 0 #149 August 14, 2003 QuoteShe's a precious little gift from Duncan and Sue. She calls me "dad." I think that's pretty cool. t that is one precious child. Great pic. Words aren't real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
digurman 0 #150 August 14, 2003 Some people explained those with multiple gods; the authors of the bible believed in a single god, who gave them those answers, which are recorded in the bible... They believed in multiple gods and they worshipped multiple gods. Their leaders instructed them to only worship a particular god, but even the bible refers to other gods as being real. They were primitive men, with little knowledge the natural world. The Greeks had their own pantheon, but at lest they introduced science and mathematics. The Jews and Christians only gave us moral codes, homophobia, and a six day work week. He was somewhat unique in that he was invisible most of the time, but he was still one of the many gods worshipped by the desert tribes of the period. Words aren't real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
