Zenister 0
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Zenister 0
Quoteas King Solomon, a biblical author, is still accepted as one of the most intelligent men ever to walk the earth
i'd be interested in your 'non-religious' baised sources are discounted for this assertion..
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Zenister 0
QuoteThe bible references BELIEF that other gods are real, then immediately disproves either their existence or their power as a god, whichever way you like to think of it. Examples? Moses' walking stick becoming a snake which swallowed the snakes created by the priests/magicians of the pharoah, for one...
other myths claiming to refute previous mythos in no way qualifies as "proof" of anything...
i could create stories about 'my' disciples trouncing yours, but that isnt evidence of anything even thousands of years after the fact...
claiming 'your prophet' beat 'my prophet' doesnt make it true...
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Push 0
Quotethen immediately disproves either their existence
Nothing is proved or disproved in the bible. You only accept what the bible says if you accept that the bible is true. I do not accept it, hence, for all I know, the Egyptian gods could be real.
The Old Testament raises a lot of questions in many aspects. Are you familiar with the book of Job? What kind of a God would do that to someone? Arguably, Job gets back more than he lost, but damnit, was it necessary to put him through such a wrangler? Was Job anything more than a toy? The Old Testament is full of bloodthirsty murder and other barbarism. The Justice of God all too often is dealt through the destruction of the lives of thousands of innocent people. For instance, David and his transgressions. What did God do to punish David after he counted heads?
I can't prove to you that God does not exist. You can't prove to me that God does exist. Therefore, it's a matter of belief, and I choose not to believe in something this bloodthirsty.
-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.
I heard somewhere that the AVERAGE American has 14 credit cards. For one of those debt consolidation companies... somebody should do a poll...
Ain't no god out there... my "karma" god is not even a real god. I figure if you do enough good junk for people, the word that you are a "good guy" will get around and people will subconsciously be nicer to you. That's what Karma means to me.
Very opposed to organized religion in general... while the concept of god and the afterlife makes folks feel good when loved ones die (the ONLY benefit as far as I can see), so much crap has been done in the name of god throughout history, led by religious leaders.... buncha dorks if you ask me.
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What would Vic Mackey do?
Ain't no god out there... my "karma" god is not even a real god. I figure if you do enough good junk for people, the word that you are a "good guy" will get around and people will subconsciously be nicer to you. That's what Karma means to me.
Very opposed to organized religion in general... while the concept of god and the afterlife makes folks feel good when loved ones die (the ONLY benefit as far as I can see), so much crap has been done in the name of god throughout history, led by religious leaders.... buncha dorks if you ask me.
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What would Vic Mackey do?
QuoteQuoteThe bible references BELIEF that other gods are real, then immediately disproves either their existence or their power as a god, whichever way you like to think of it. Examples? Moses' walking stick becoming a snake which swallowed the snakes created by the priests/magicians of the pharoah, for one...
other myths claiming to refute previous mythos in no way qualifies as "proof" of anything...
i could create stories about 'my' disciples trouncing yours, but that isnt evidence of anything even thousands of years after the fact...
claiming 'your prophet' beat 'my prophet' doesnt make it true...
Okay, if that's your stance, then by no means does there exist any proof refuting the existence of God, either.
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Blondes do have more fun!
Shotgun 1
Quote
Ha! So much for that, eh???
Zenister 0
indeed, if you read my previous posts i have said exactly that in different words..
however we run into issues as soon as anyone claims "my way and no other" something the christians (among the other monotheisms who have been continually fighting over the 'holy land') are infamous for..
sorry, but 'god' if there is such, cares nothing for the petty arguments of man..or whos dogma you follow to reach him..
"follow the shoe!!!"
"No! follow the gourd"
"splitters!"
however we run into issues as soon as anyone claims "my way and no other" something the christians (among the other monotheisms who have been continually fighting over the 'holy land') are infamous for..
sorry, but 'god' if there is such, cares nothing for the petty arguments of man..or whos dogma you follow to reach him..
"follow the shoe!!!"
"No! follow the gourd"
"splitters!"
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
QuoteQuotethen immediately disproves either their existence
Nothing is proved or disproved in the bible. You only accept what the bible says if you accept that the bible is true. I do not accept it, hence, for all I know, the Egyptian gods could be real.
The Old Testament raises a lot of questions in many aspects. Are you familiar with the book of Job? What kind of a God would do that to someone? Arguably, Job gets back more than he lost, but damnit, was it necessary to put him through such a wrangler? Was Job anything more than a toy? The Old Testament is full of bloodthirsty murder and other barbarism. The Justice of God all too often is dealt through the destruction of the lives of thousands of innocent people. For instance, David and his transgressions. What did God do to punish David after he counted heads?
I can't prove to you that God does not exist. You can't prove to me that God does exist. Therefore, it's a matter of belief, and I choose not to believe in something this bloodthirsty.
Yes, I am very familiar with the book of Job. Satan challenged God, saying that the only reason humans were faithful to God is because God gave them the best of everything, that they were not wanting in any way. God felt the need to prove that this was not the case. At this time (referencing Ch.1 vs.12) God allowed SATAN the opportunity to curse Job, to see if Job would in turn curse God for his poor fate.
In the end, he proved triumphant. The important thing here is that GOD did not bring the calamity upon Job, and he only allowed it in order to prove that humans were not simply opportunistic.
Also, David was punished for several sins, but I won't get into that.
Anyway, I understand your point, and my point was, more than anything, to say that you can't disprove that there is a god to someone anymore than you can necessarily prove that there is one. There, I do agree with you.
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Blondes do have more fun!
Zennie 0
QuoteOkay, if that's your stance, then by no means does there exist any proof refuting the existence of God, either.
Exactly. Which is why I consider atheism every bit as much of a "faith" as theism.
In fact. it much more difficult to prove a negative than a positive. Therefore, those who say "God does not exist" actually are saying "I have faith that God does not exist".
- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon
Push 0
A much better stance would be "I don't know if God exists, but I chose to believe he does/doesn't". Myself I'm on the stronger side of the fence - "I don't think it's possible for me, as a human, to answer the question on the existance of God at all."
-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.
-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.
LOL, I think it's funny that people often choose Job as a way to challenge faith in the Christian God.
To me, Job is one of the most inspirational books in the Bible. It is the answer to ANY question about God.
You may not like the answer, but it's an answer. "Were you there when I made the heavens?" Nope. There's no way my decidedly HUMAN brain could comprehend God or his motives. I shouldn't try.
See, that's the crux of FAITH. Faith is not logical or rational (I'm not saying that using the disparaging connotations of those words, rather the dictionary definition of pertaining to logic). You cannot make a logical arguement either for or against the existence of God because in either case you will have to take some sort of statement on faith. Generally you'll find that people who try to debate it end up making circular arguments or setting up strawmen, classic logical fallacies...they can't avoid it.
So I choose to believe. So you don't. I'll respect that. I don't agree, but I respect that.
Having been a scientist all my life, and an atheist for most of it, I've discovered that my personal beliefs and interpretations of theological issues are usually very different from most "Christians'"...so what. Actually, many Christians don't ever bother to explore their faith, which bothers me. The scariest people are the ones who NEVER question.
To me, Job is one of the most inspirational books in the Bible. It is the answer to ANY question about God.
You may not like the answer, but it's an answer. "Were you there when I made the heavens?" Nope. There's no way my decidedly HUMAN brain could comprehend God or his motives. I shouldn't try.
See, that's the crux of FAITH. Faith is not logical or rational (I'm not saying that using the disparaging connotations of those words, rather the dictionary definition of pertaining to logic). You cannot make a logical arguement either for or against the existence of God because in either case you will have to take some sort of statement on faith. Generally you'll find that people who try to debate it end up making circular arguments or setting up strawmen, classic logical fallacies...they can't avoid it.
So I choose to believe. So you don't. I'll respect that. I don't agree, but I respect that.
Having been a scientist all my life, and an atheist for most of it, I've discovered that my personal beliefs and interpretations of theological issues are usually very different from most "Christians'"...so what. Actually, many Christians don't ever bother to explore their faith, which bothers me. The scariest people are the ones who NEVER question.
Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
rhino 0
QuoteSo you are saying that the principles of science are a Descartian illusion? That you see physical laws because you want to see them?
Read every word I wrote? Did I say that? You can answer your own question..
You choose to believe and focus on "your opinion" or observation that God has not played a part in the Universe..
Maybe the reason you don't see it is because you focus on not seeing it.
Rhino
QuoteYou are equating complex technology with a complex lifestyle. Check out the British court in the 17th century, or the government of the Roman Empire during the time of Caesar. Just as much (if not more) complexity as we have today;
The 17th century British court? Don't remember any mention of Jesus, Barabbas, and Richard the 3rd. Re-read what I originally posted. What was the target audience of the Bible authors? It was shepherds, farmers, and fisherman.
Almost none of the apostles lived in the 17th century.
I still believe that being a shepherd 2000 years ago was a very simple lifestyle. It was my understanding that the use of parables to teach a certain point was more effective because of this.
People remembered stories.
Anyone describing a spherical earth or the big bang theory would hardly be understood.
Original statement -
QuoteThink of this... back in the day, you are explaining this to a guy whose day job is bumping goats on the butt with a stick.
All the people who believe that being a 1st century goatherd is a complex job, raise your hand...
Zennie 0
QuoteI don't think it's possible for me, as a human, to answer the question on the existance of God at all.
That would be what some call "Strong Agnosticism".
I'm what people would call a Weak Agnostic. I personally don't know one way or another whether God (or Gods) exists. However, I do not rule out the possibility that the existence of God has been revealed or otherwise proven to others.
- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon
rhino 0
QuoteI do not rule out the possibility that the existence of God has been revealed or otherwise proven to others.
Interestingly put....
aero04 0
QuoteYou choose to believe and focus on "your opinion" or observation that God has not played a part in the Universe..
Maybe the reason you don't see it is because you focus on not seeing it.
Could it be said then that the religious folks only "see it" because that is what they focus on? They focus on what they want to see and block out anything that doesn't fit their view? This argument could be used both ways.
Push 0
I misunderstood you. Solipsism was the obvious interpretation of your message. That's why I asked.
Anyway, the argument from design. In our universe, arguably, the basic parameters have been carefully fine tuned to allow our life to exist. Two ways to argue against this:
1) If the parameters were different, it is not necessarily true that no life would develop. The universe would be different. Molecules and atoms would not come together in the traditional sense, but the overall picture is far too complex to predict. It's more than possible that ANY combination of the basic parameters would produce something.
2) According to a certain application of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, every quantum occurance generates two "universes" - two space-time hyperplanes. In one, the event happened, in the other, it didn't. It follows that the Big Bang will generate a continuum of universes, an infinite amount of hyperplanes with EVERY possible configuration. Some of these configurations will develop life. To the life it will seem like their particular hyperplane has been fine-tuned to their existance by some kind of God. In fact, it hasn't been.
Maybe you're seeing it because you want to? The human brain puts patterns on chaos, that's what it does. You sure that what you're seeing is really there?
Also, answer me this. Even if there was a Designer to the universe, are you sure that this Designer even gives a crap about us? How do you know that there was only one Designer? Maybe there was a whole team of them?
-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.
Anyway, the argument from design. In our universe, arguably, the basic parameters have been carefully fine tuned to allow our life to exist. Two ways to argue against this:
1) If the parameters were different, it is not necessarily true that no life would develop. The universe would be different. Molecules and atoms would not come together in the traditional sense, but the overall picture is far too complex to predict. It's more than possible that ANY combination of the basic parameters would produce something.
2) According to a certain application of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, every quantum occurance generates two "universes" - two space-time hyperplanes. In one, the event happened, in the other, it didn't. It follows that the Big Bang will generate a continuum of universes, an infinite amount of hyperplanes with EVERY possible configuration. Some of these configurations will develop life. To the life it will seem like their particular hyperplane has been fine-tuned to their existance by some kind of God. In fact, it hasn't been.
QuoteMaybe the reason you don't see it is because you focus on not seeing it.
Maybe you're seeing it because you want to? The human brain puts patterns on chaos, that's what it does. You sure that what you're seeing is really there?
Also, answer me this. Even if there was a Designer to the universe, are you sure that this Designer even gives a crap about us? How do you know that there was only one Designer? Maybe there was a whole team of them?
-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.
Zenister 0
Quotethe argument from design.
ill briefly paraphrase douglas adams as to the fallacy here
if a puddle of water in a pothole were sentient it might as well think
"look at this world, it fits me perfectly it must have been designed exactly for me."
and continue to wonder when the creator was going to 'save' it as evaporation begins...
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
for example, "witch" and "poisioner" woe to the lives of spinsters thruout history..
also it doesnt refer to ball at all, but 'sphere' as in 'realm' not as in 'circle'
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
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