Depression thread

[jumprunner 0]

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This post is for anyone who may be depressed and who may have become confused in the (now locked) thread that was started earlier.

Before anyone takes the advice of someone posting from dz.com, whether it be me, Rhino, Michele, anyone, if your depression is serious enough that you have a hard time getting out of bed, have difficulty working, have lost the ability to experience pleasure in activities you used to gain pleasure from, or have had ANY suicidal thoughts, even if you would NEVER act on them, PLEASE see a licensed, competent, reputable psychiatrist or therapist. If you can't afford one or your insurance doesn't pay for one, PM me. I may be able to help with options unknown to you.

I have trouble getting out of bed or just waking up, but I know that is because of low blood sugar. Every once in a while I run into someone else with this problem.

As far as difficulty working...yep, got that, because what I really want to be doing is either chasing girls, partying, or (believe it or not) skydiving. Im a socialite that ended up as a computer programmer, which explains the reason why Im always on this forum.

A good solution to that is intense workouts, which Im so used to doing its hard not to. Course this drops your blood sugar and forces you to sleep alot longer.

[rhino 0]

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Quick question....do you view other disorders of the mind in a similar fashion? How do you think schizophrenics should be treated or people with Alzheimer's?

Hell I don't know.. Have you seen It's a BEautiful Mind.. I think that was the name.. Russell Crowe..

Rhino

[Luna 0]

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Do you agree that depression has been conclusively linked to seratonin, norepinephine and dopamine?

Yes, a link has been established. People with depression have been shown to have a chemical imbalance in their brains. People without do not have the same imbalance. Now, can you show me the research (I mean this sincerely, because I read research, and I need hard facts to support any assertion before I will believe it) that have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the chemical imbalance caused the depression and not that the depression (negative thoughts, whatever) caused the chemical imbalance? Barring actual research that has verified this specific link (which I doubt because the drug companies found such research), this is a fallacy of logic (post hoc) to assume that just because the imbalance is there that it is what caused the despression. Let's talk logic here, NOT get emotional.

One more note on chemical imbalances and meds. My father had an extremely violent temper when I was growing up. It was spontaneous and would come on immediately at full force, not build up as normal. When he finally saw someone about it, after the symptoms supported it, they did tests on his brain chemistry and found that he had a seizure disorder and put him on dilantin (for epilepsy). The episodes stopped. Years later he made a lot of changes in his life. Among them, he decided he did not need to be held hostage to this drug. So he went off of it. And he has not had a single episode in the over 5 years since. So, yes, I believe that ANYTHING is possible, and I also believe that the minute that you tell yourself that there is any thing that is not possible, you are handicapping yourself worse than you can imagine.

But what do I know?

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[Vallerina 2]

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Hell I don't know.. Have you seen It's a BEautiful Mind.. I think that was the name.. Russell Crowe..

One movie cannot prove against treatment for the thousands of shizophrenic patients who need actual treatment since it is that extreme. When they have zero basis in reality (as in, they don't even realize they live on this planet) you cannot say, "Oh, suck it up!"

What about Alzheimer's? Do you tell them to stop forgetting things?

I agree that there are many people hopping on the Prozac bandwagon. I'm sure we all have friends who think because they've had a bad week that they are depressed. I agree that these people should suck it up and take responsibility and thereapy without medication would work just fine. Clinical depression is just like any other disease of the mind, however.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[sinker 0]

ah... the million dollar question... some situations one may encounter in life, esp. traumatic ones that were recurrent, can alter the catacholamines (the three neurotransmitters Michele mentioned below, seratonin, norepinepherine and dopamine) in such a way that one gets depressed. It would stand to reason then, wouldn't it, that DIFFERENT life situations (i.e. working out, smiling at your funny face in the mirror) CAN change the neurochemistry of the brain in such a way as to return it to a normal state.

Yes, that is true. Such life situations CAN do this.

HOWEVER>>> often times, the change in chemistry is such that the depression sufferer CANNOT do those things that may (or may not) return the brain to a non-depressed state. People w/ severe depressions often CANNOT "force themselves" to do things. In such circumstances, taking an SSRI (Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft) will help keep MORE seratonin where it should be to so as to lift the depression enough to where the sufferer can do those things like exercise, smile more, eat better, develop spiritually, etc.

There are also those that get depressed for NO REASON AT ALL... there is a genetic predisposition in some people to depression. Sorry, you've just been dealth w/ bad cards, dude. Just the way it is. In such cases, we're talking STRICTLY about a neurochemical imbalance. And again, the best and quickest remedy is... you guessed it... medication. Like the diabetic taking insulin. And you know what? If you take that person off the antidepressants, they very well may go right back to their pre-med state: depression. their brains may not EVER have the ability to naturally regulate the catacholamines, no matter how many non-med strategies they employ. These people exist. Trust me.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[rhino 0]

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you cannot say, "Oh, suck it up!"

What about Alzheimer's? Do you tell them to stop forgetting things?

You aren't making it personal are you? I have said no such thing... If someone takes it that way it is probably because they know they should suck it up.. LOL

Rhino

[Michele 1]

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I'll take your word for it..

Good grief, don't do that!

I don't understand why, and have a barely adequate understanding of how. I am very open about myself and my symptoms, because a lot of people aren't - and are unwilling to put themselves out for ridicule and humiliation. Most people who are depressed refuse to address it because of the social aspects of it...I dated someone who found my meds in my bath, and broke it off with me because, as he put it, "I don't want to deal with crazy chicks." (Honestly, I am better off. But man, that hurt!). I received condemnation from family members who I know love me dearly...but just don't understand what was happening with my body, and how it affected my brain.

And so I talk about it. I put everything out there that I think is important; and then I shield myself against comments like yours, Rhino. I hold my temper in check, and I know you are trying to help the best way you know how. But there are better ways. Those ways begin with getting educated about depression before you say things which are hurtful and detrimental.

You know my position on meds...often they are prescribed and utilized without addressing the other underlying causes. I do not believe they should be allowed to be RX'd by GPs, only by psychiatrists, with on-going counselling by good, qualified therapists. But I will also say that correcting the chemical imbalance, however it was acheived in the first place, is paramount for a person's successful therapy.

To make a blanket judgment about anything is wrong...to understand scientific causes is something different. The information is out there. Seek and ye shall find. And once found, a different understanding may be achieved.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rhino 0]

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CAN change the neurochemistry of the brain in such a way as to return it to a normal state.

Bingo..

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HOWEVER>>> often times, the change in chemistry is such that the depression sufferer CANNOT do those things that may (or may not) return the brain to a non-depressed state.

That is understandable.. There are certainly those that fall in the category you mention.

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And again, the best and quickest remedy is... you guessed it... medication.

You said it.. Quickest remedy is the problem. Not the long term fix to the problem. Not finding out root cause and fixing the neuropathways. It's much easier and quicker to go with plan B.

Rhino

[sinker 0]

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Hell I don't know.. Have you seen It's a BEautiful Mind.. I think that was the name.. Russell Crowe

I'm so glad you brought this up!! I used to run clinical trials for schizophrenics under a Vanderbilt University Medical Center psychiatrist named Herbert Meltzer, MD. He's highly published and very well respected in the schizophrenia community (even though he is an asshat of a personality).

He knows John Nash personally. Very personally. Mr. Nash is the character in A Beautiful Mind. Dr. Meltzer knew Mr. Nash before he won the Nobel Prize for economics and has kept up the relationship ever since. I was actually in Dr. Meltzer's office having a meeting once when Mr. Nash called him! At the time, the movie hadn't come out and I had no idea who the man was.

Anyhow, about a year after the movie came out, Mr. Nash came to Vanderbilt, on Dr. Meltzer's request, to speak. His son came too. His son is also a paranoid schizophrenic and chose to not take his meds while in Nashville (where Vanderbilt is located). The son disappeared in the city and the police and the emergency psychiatric intervention team, also where I used to work, had to go find him.

The movie is not completely accurate. While I don't know if Mr. Nash currently takes any medication, he did not completely shun them as the movie would like to suggest. Love can certainly move mountains, and Mr. Nash's ex-wife certainly did alot to help him, but newer medications also helped him as well. If you remember from the movie, at the end when he is teaching at Princeton, he was STILL symptomatic! He was still hallucinating... he just learned exceptional coping skills that helped him deal better with it also.

Even better yet would be if he didn't have any psychosis at all...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Vallerina 2]

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You aren't making it personal are you? I have said no such thing... If someone takes it that way it is probably because they know they should suck it up..

Uhh...no....I have never come close to having depression, schizophrenia, or Alzheimer's. Neither have any of my family or close friends. So, it's not personal.

There are other diseases of the mind where you can't "get over it" by controlling your mind, since you have no control. There are other diseases of the mind where we are still unsure of how chemicals react to produce unfortunate results. Clinical depression should be viewed such as that. Just because it's symptoms can compare with people who are "down in the dumps" doesn't mean it's origins compare. You wouldn't compare the origins of Alzheimer's with someone who is just really forgetful, would you?

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[sinker 0]

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You said it.. Quickest remedy is the problem. Not the long term fix to the problem. Not finding out root cause and fixing the neuropathways. It's much easier and quicker to go with plan B.

quikest remedy ISN'T always the problem. Often yes, but not always. For some depressed persons, they don't HAVE a lot of time before they hang themselves, blow their heads off, overdose, slit their wrists, you get the picture. The idea there is, get in, relieve the severe mood, even just a little, and open up a therapeutic window so that the root causes and other non-medication fixes can be applied.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Zennie 0]

I'd also not that researchers have found a genetic link between traumatic life events and one's propensity to slip into major depression (which is what happened to me).

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[rhino 0]

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I do not believe they should be allowed to be RX'd by GPs, only by psychiatrists, with on-going counselling by good, qualified therapists.

Agreed...

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But I will also say that correcting the chemical imbalance, however it was acheived in the first place, is paramount for a person's successful therapy.

In most cases this can be done naturally by changing ones focus. Anyone can read the red print on my posts and that speaks the truth. People focus on being depressed. People focus on what is wrong. If they don't change their focus they will ALLWAYS need meds because they aren't fixing the problem. The problem MOST OF THE TIME but not allways is ones thought process.

Focus on being depressed and you will be. Focus on being unemployed and you will be. Focus on panicking during a skydive and you will. Focus on getting your degree and you will.

It is all about focus as far as I am concerned. People are their own worst enemy.

Spend 20 minutes a day smiling in the mirror and exercising GRATITUDE. Say to yourself all the things you are gratefull for during the course of a week. 20 minutes of smiling and proper focus on the good instead of the bad will help ANYONE on this site whether you are on meds or not.

I can tell where people focus by the words they type.

"This wasn't directed AT you Michelle"

Rhino

[sinker 0]

couldn't get your clicky to work... wanna try again? sounds very interesting...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Zennie 0]

Clicky fixed.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[sinker 0]

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Now, can you show me the research (I mean this sincerely, because I read research, and I need hard facts to support any assertion before I will believe it) that have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the chemical imbalance caused the depression and not that the depression (negative thoughts, whatever) caused the chemical imbalance?

Actually, it isn't an either/or question. It can go both ways. You can have stressors that alter the chemistry. You can have altered chemistry FIRST w/o stressors to trigger the depression. Or you can have both... altered chemistry AND stressors that would make ANYONE depressed.

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Barring actual research that has verified this specific link (which I doubt because the drug companies found such research), this is a fallacy of logic (post hoc) to assume that just because the imbalance is there that it is what caused the despression. Let's talk logic here, NOT get emotional.

Given my response to your first question, this quote by you above is a moot point. It is not of paramount importance, at least initially, to know the etiology of depression, the cause of depression. Don't get me wrong, it IS important. Just not the MOST important thing. Whether your depression came from stressors which altered your brain chemistry or if your brain chemistry was first out of wack doesn't change the fact that antidepressents can help put them back to the levels that they need to be.

Another thing... just b/c pharmaceutical companies fund the research on these drugs does not make there findings suspect or spurious. WHO ELSE should fund the research for crying out loud??? Taxpayers? The pharmaceutical industry has a tainted image these days due to some big mistakes made in the name of research. HOWEVER, clinical trials are far more objective and unbiased than the average consumer whose only exposure is the evening news. That in a nutshell is my job... making sure that clinical trials are ethical, balanced, unbiased, not influenced by money or politics. And I think we do a DAMN good job at it... only 1 drug compound out of thousands ever makes it to market BECAUSE of the work we do to make sure that the drugs are safe and effective.

A final point... I don't recall ANYONE on these depression threads arguing that medication is the only way and that the position you and Rhino take is bullshit. What most of us are saying is that the things YOU propose may work for some, not for others. Catagorical, blanket statements are not only imprudent, they are DANGEROUS. Depression kills many many people. Bad advice can too.
As I've said ad nauseum, the BEST approach for lasting, long term remission of depression is medication and talk therapy. Often, medication can be discontinued after a period of time. Sometimes it can't. While alot of people are too quick to reach for a pill in our current society, there is no denying that modern antidepressants have been a huge benefit for our society.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Jessica 0]

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I do not believe they should be allowed to be RX'd by GPs, only by psychiatrists, with on-going counselling by good, qualified therapists.

I know of a non-psychiatrist MD who knew a woman was depressed, but did not prescribe medication for it. She killed herself shortly thereafter -- and she was several months pregnant.

Depression is a medical condition; ideally you get a specialist but that's not always practical or possible.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[sinker 0]

thx for fixing the link... a FASCINATING article! And it just confirms alot of past research about seratonin regulation.

now an interesting twist would be to test those persons with both long versions of the 5-HTT gene who DID get depressed with different treatments: one group on meds, one off, one in combination.

I have a sneaking suspicion we'd see that, since the seratonin regulation in the long gene group is more effective, they would be better suited to non-medication interventions. However, they probably wouldn't respond as quickly as the medication group or the combo group.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

very good point. but a number of questions come up... did the doctor talk to woman about treating her depression? did she ask about suicidal thoughts? did she refer her to a psychiatrist? if the doc gave samples of an antidepressent, would the patient have taken them?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Luna 0]

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A final point... I don't recall ANYONE on these depression threads arguing that medication is the only way and that the position you and Rhino take is bullshit.

Oh, maybe you didn't read the thread in the Women's forum then, because I definitely recall our position being called so much bullshit. DEFINITELY! And I never said that nobody should ever take meds either, because I took meds. You have to do what is right for you at the time. But as you have so expertly said, meds are WAY out of control in this country for no good reason.

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What most of us are saying is that the things YOU propose may work for some, not for others. Catagorical, blanket statements are not only imprudent, they are DANGEROUS. Depression kills many many people. Bad advice can too.

Again, I never tried making a blanket statement saying that you shouldn't take meds. In fact, if you go look at my original post in the Women's thread, I specifically said that everyone who had posted was right. And yet still I get yelled at for making people feel bad for doing what works for them. I can't win here. But you know what? Meds don't work for everyone either, and they can go on meds and still kill themselves. So, was advising meds in that case wrong, bad advice, or dangerous? What is the harm in ensuring that people know ALL of their options? Because far too many of them have been to see some MD or another (not necessarily a psychiatrist) who has just told them they need to be on this pill and not offered them any other solution. Like I was. Yes, I got talk therapy to go with it, but frankly, I didn't need the meds. But you know what? Despite all the talk about the stigma surrounding depression, the fact is that it's en vogue. I wanted to be diagnosed as beyond help without taking meds, because that made me feel more important and significant. So I never questioned the prescription for a second, because it validated me.

(not directed at Sinker) I'll tell you one thing, though, because it's irritating me. If you want to talk about stigma, let's talk about phobias, because guys, there ain't no comparison. Depression is the buzz nowadays, and anymore you get sympathy for it and plenty of understanding. Phobias like mine people won't touch with a ten-foot pole. You don't know about shame, embarassment, pain, and ridicule until you've walked in these shoes. And no, I'm not going to publicly state what it is, because I'm not up for the shame, embarassment, pain and ridicule it would generate, despite the fact that it's one of the top ten phobias. Many therapists have never even heard of it because people are so damned afraid to admit that they have it. So, I've experienced both depression and this, so yes, I can make this comparison with authority. Depression is no longer as stigmatized as it used to be. Phobias have made NO progress in that area.

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[Zennie 0]

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now an interesting twist would be to test those persons with both long versions of the 5-HTT gene who DID get depressed with different treatments: one group on meds, one off, one in combination.

Maybe I'm the guinea pig.

I have major depression and ADHD.

I've been on Wellbutrin + Adderall. Got rid of the depression and allowed me to focus more, but I annoyed the crap out of everone around me.

Went off Adderall and just took Wellbutrin (supplemented with massive amounts of caffeine). Still not depressed, but couldn't focus as much and had bad anxiety.

Now I'm on Wellbutrin + Ritalin. I can focus fairly well, I'm not as "edgy", but I do notice that I have a propensity toward anxiety spells and more "down" depression days.

Based on the research, I'm wondering if taking an MAO inhibitor is the wrong approach. I'm thinking of asking my doc to try an SSRI (such as Zoloft) + Ritalin and see if that helps smooth things out.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[AndyMan 7]

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tagorical, blanket statements are not only imprudent, they are DANGEROUS. Depression kills many many people

Roughly 26,000 people commit suicide every year.

A few years ago, one of them was my cousin. He was found hainging from the ceiling in his dorm room at college.

He was the kind of kid that everyone thought would take over the world - smart, hansome, popular, he seemed to have it all. Aparently his demons were darker then we had imagined.

I'm all for homeopathic remedies, but I doubt very much that a few sessions of smiling in the mirror would've stopped my cousin from hanging himself.

I worry very much that someone in a similar position to him might see these suggestions and decide, no - he doesn't need profesional help. he'll just smile in the mirror a few times, and that'll fix everything. I worry he'll do this, and he too will end up hanging from the ceiling in his college dorm.

Depression is a very real illness that kills over 26,000 Americans every year. It is the 3rd leading cause of death in those under 25. So many people want to help, but in this case it's really best if we leave that up to the profesionals.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[sinker 0]

Luna, sorry if I incorrectly lumped you and Rhino "in bed together" over this issue.

About depression being de riguer... you're totally right. But ya know, it's not the worst thing that could happen. It's not the best either, but a lot of people have gotten help that they otherwise might not have received.

Maybe someday our society will get to a point where phobias are more accepted as well. Me personally, they don't freak me out, embarass me, nothing like that. Of course, having worked in the field, that's understandable. We all have our irrational fears, so try not to feel too isolated and alone... 'cause you're NOT alone...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[rhino 0]

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they are DANGEROUS. Depression kills many many people. Bad advice can too.

Being on antidepressants can also be dangerous.. Why don't you mention the short term and long term side effects.

Rhino

[rhino 0]

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Oh, maybe you didn't read the thread in the Women's forum then, because I definitely recall our position being called so much bullshit. DEFINITELY! And I never said that nobody should ever take meds either, because I took meds. You have to do what is right for you at the time. But as you have so expertly said, meds are WAY out of control in this country for no good reason.

Agreed... The current thread in the womens forum is incomplete. Damn near my complete "shit storm" was in there.

Thanks for sharing Luna..

Rhino