Jib 0 #126 June 12, 2003 QuoteNo but pointing a weapon at a cop will get you shot. And if you point a weapon at a cop and then take it down and walk away and don't stop, that cop has to assume that you're a danger to society and NEED to be stopped NOW. So IF the suspect had a weapon and he's shown he's hesitant to use it, the proper response is to use your's? HUH? What's hesitant about pointing a gun at someone? -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #127 June 12, 2003 Just watched the video again....not knowing that's a cell phone and thinking it's a gun, which is obviously how he was trying to portray it, let me give you the play by play. -Perp gets out of car and points "gun" at cop A -Cop B grabs perp and puts gun to his head. -Perp immediately pulls the "weapon" down so cop B doesn't shoot him. Cop B is also not going to wrestle with an armed man. Proper tactic is distance is your friend. -Cops scream at perp to stop and drop weapon. -Perp turns and raises "weapon" again -Cops shoot him until he's on the ground. Notice that the first shots are fired immediately as perp starts to raise the "weapon" again and point it at cop A. At that point the decision to use deadly force is correctly made. Once that decision is made it's carried out until the threat is elliminated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #128 June 12, 2003 QuoteSo IF the suspect had a weapon and he's shown he's hesitant to use it, the proper response is to use your's? If he was hesitant, he would have dropped it. But, he saved it for possible later use. So, YES he does need to be stopped. QuoteThe officers didn't arrive at their conclusions based on a single frozen instant so why should I? No, the Officers had 7 seconds. And in that 7 seconds, having plenty of time while sitting at my desk, I still could not say the object was not a gun. In fact the only reason I know it is a cell phone and not a gun is I was told it was a cell phone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #129 June 12, 2003 Quote HUH? What's hesitant about pointing a gun at someone? Putting it down without using it. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #130 June 12, 2003 >The shock of being shot might make you fall down, but the force > of the round won't. ' Due to hollywood, though, the myth persists. There are endless examples of someone standing there, firing a shotgun, causing the person who is hit to go flying through the air. In the real world, both people absorb the same momentum. The amount of force generated by a round is the same or less than the amount of recoil felt by the user of the gun - conservation of momentum and all that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #131 June 12, 2003 QuoteQuote HUH? What's hesitant about pointing a gun at someone? Putting it down without using it. Blues, Dave How long would it take to raise it again and fire? Faster than you can stop him, guaranteed. That's ridiculous. Someone points a gun at you, then puts it down, you're going to gamble your life that he doesn't raise it again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #132 June 12, 2003 QuoteQuote HUH? What's hesitant about pointing a gun at someone? Putting it down without using it. Blues, Dave Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot Dave. My point EXACTLY!!! HE NEVER PUT THE OBJECT DOWN. He was shot when he threatened the officers with it a second time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #133 June 12, 2003 QuoteJust watched the video again....not knowing that's a cell phone and thinking it's a gun, which is obviously how he was trying to portray it, let me give you the play by play. -Perp gets out of car and points "gun" at cop A -Cop B grabs perp and puts gun to his head. -Perp immediately pulls the "weapon" down so cop B doesn't shoot him. Cop B is also not going to wrestle with an armed man. Proper tactic is distance is your friend. -Cops scream at perp to stop and drop weapon. -Perp turns and raises "weapon" again -Cops shoot him until he's on the ground. See attachment. If he thinks it's a gun (and he should have a damn good view of it), who's it pointing at right now? If he had pulled the trigger right here, I might have understood the "simple mistake" argument. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laurel 0 #134 June 12, 2003 Quote>The shock of being shot might make you fall down, but the force > of the round won't. ' Due to hollywood, though, the myth persists. There are endless examples of someone standing there, firing a shotgun, causing the person who is hit to go flying through the air. In the real world, both people absorb the same momentum. The amount of force generated by a round is the same or less than the amount of recoil felt by the user of the gun - conservation of momentum and all that. Have you ever seen video of a person on stimulants (i.e. PCP) get shot? Dude, they keep coming at you - it's like they are immortal! Bless our cops for putting themselves on the line everyday to protect us from the violent nutbags...................................................................... PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074 My Pink M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #135 June 12, 2003 I had earlier only watched the third video, I didn't realize that there were three different videos up, I thought they were just different bandwidth. After watching the first video I feel that the police were perfectly justified in their reaction. QuoteIn fact the only reason I know it is a cell phone and not a gun is I was told it was a cell phone. Same here, and in the hit of the moment I'm sure the cops would not have stopped to think to themselves whether it was a gun or a cell phone.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #136 June 12, 2003 QuoteSee attachment. If he thinks it's a gun (and he should have a damn good view of it), who's it pointing at right now? If he had pulled the trigger right here, I might have understood the "simple mistake" argument. Here, the guy was moving away from him. When he got shot, he had turned and pointed it at him. The next time you're in a high-stress situation be sure to get fixated on one hand while the other clocks you, takes the gun away or moves it from its target. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #137 June 12, 2003 QuoteIf he thinks it's a gun (and he should have a damn good view of it), No, actually he should have a damn good view of the front site on his pistol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #138 June 12, 2003 Quote...See attachment. If he thinks it's a gun (and he should have a damn good view of it), who's it pointing at right now? ... Blues, Dave Actually the hand you see is the bad guy's left hand. The object is in his right hand behind his body out of view of the closest LEO, and moving too fast for the other to see clearly. However in 4 seconds it is pointed directly at an LEO again. Do you expect cops to have magic powers of X-ray vision... or the ability to slow time? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #139 June 12, 2003 Dave, Please read this. This is a tragic example of what can happen when an LEO does not open fire the instant a gun is pointed at him. http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=16528 By intentionally pointing a gun (whether real or not) at someone, you are communicating your willingness to kill him/her. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #140 June 12, 2003 Quote Do you expect cops to have magic powers of X-ray vision... or the ability to slow time? Nope. But I do expect them to risk death over killing someone for the wrong reason. We hear all this talk about cops laying it all on the line for us every day, but in reality the procedure is to shoot when threatened rather than risk being shot. These guys killed someone who was holding a cell phone. How was that "laying it on the line"? One point that someone made earlier was that the shooting started as soon as he raised his phone a second time. The first couple times I watched it, I thought the cop waited till the guy dropped his arm and turned around again. Given that, I'll concede that the shooting was in response to a (wrongfully perceived) threat. Some people inherently trust cops. Some people adamantly distrust them. I think it's pretty clear which group I fall into. I could give plenty of reasons why, but will list just the most recent. A couple years ago, I called 911 to report shots being fired at the house behind my apartment. Being fairly certain it was a group of drug dealers that lived there, I asked the 911 operator to keep my name/address/phone number out of it. I hadn't seen the shooting, only heard the gunshots a couple hours after seeing a guy freak out violently on a truck with a woman in it. 20 minutes later, the gal called me back to ask me if it was ok if the officer brought his suspect over for me to ID...just as I was saying "no", the cop knocked on my door, with his arrestee about 20 feet behind him. So I moved. Who needs that kind of protection? That was really pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, and far from my least pleasant encounter with police. But it did help shape my opinion that protection of the sort our boys in blue offer is something I'm better off without. Having grown older and a little less aggressive, I generally just try to avoid police. We simply don't see things the same way and the differences are of a sort likely to get me dead or imprisoned, regardless of whether I happen to be in the right. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #141 June 12, 2003 QuoteDave, Please read this. This is a tragic example of what can happen when an LEO does not open fire the instant a gun is pointed at him. http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=16528 But you don't think the shooting in this thread was "tragic"? In one case, two people had guns and one died. In the other, 2 out of 3 people had guns, so the one without died. Quote By intentionally pointing a gun (whether real or not) at someone, you are communicating your willingness to kill him/her. I don't buy the "real or not" bit. If I point a cell phone at you, that doesn't mean I'm willing to kill you, regardless of how you perceive it. Still, along those lines, if I point a *real* gun at someone, should they take it as I am willing to kill them? Or as I *intend* to kill them? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #142 June 12, 2003 QuoteNope. But I do expect them to risk death over killing someone for the wrong reason. We hear all this talk about cops laying it all on the line for us every day, but in reality the procedure is to shoot when threatened rather than risk being shot. These guys killed someone who was holding a cell phone. How was that "laying it on the line"? Laying it on the line means walking up to a car and risking getting shot for no reason. It's not about being a celluloid hero. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #143 June 12, 2003 Well...I can't watch the vid because I still have Win 98. However....I'll just say this....I was in a low light shoot house not long ago. Put a nice double tap into a "Bad guy" poster. Turns out the guy was holding a cell phone. I was just clearing a room.....not arguing with a hostile person on the street. If you haven't been there...close your hole! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #144 June 12, 2003 QuoteSome people adamantly distrust them It's not so much about trusting the cop. Try to see things from his side....He doesn't know you. He may have been shot, stabbed, beaten in a situation just like the one you are in now. He may have had a buddy killed yesterday. You just don't know his perception of the situation. Cooperate!!!! and things will be fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #145 June 12, 2003 QuoteLaying it on the line means walking up to a car and risking getting shot for no reason. It's not about being a celluloid hero. Well if that's what laying it on the line means, I guess we all do it every day! I'm not talking about being a movie hero. I'm talking about being careful to not take a human life for a wrong reason and being willing to accept the increased risks that approach will sometimes entail. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #146 June 12, 2003 QuoteQuoteSome people adamantly distrust them ^belongs to Livendave -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jib 0 #147 June 12, 2003 QuoteI'm not talking about being a movie hero. I'm talking about being careful to not take a human life for a wrong reason and being willing to accept the increased risks that approach will sometimes entail. "When a man points a gun in your face, you have two choices: die or kill the MF." Wade Garrett -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #148 June 12, 2003 QuoteQuoteSome people adamantly distrust them It's not so much about trusting the cop. Try to see things from his side....He doesn't know you. He may have been shot, stabbed, beaten in a situation just like the one you are in now. He may have had a buddy killed yesterday. You just don't know his perception of the situation. Cooperate!!!! and things will be fine. Try to see things from my side. I don't know him and he's pointing a gun at me. I have no reason to believe he doesn't intend to use it. In this situation, the only reasons I should cooperate are a) I don't have a gun of my own handy with which to kill before being killed or b) I simply *trust* he won't use his. Now what reason do I have to extend that kind of trust to a stranger? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlueEyedMonster 0 #149 June 12, 2003 What you intend to communicate is far less important to what is perceived. This person was hostile toward the officer, resisted the officers, and wanted them to perceive that he had a gun. He did a good job with the last one. It is not tragic just because he did not have a gun. It was stupid--a direct consequence of HIS own illegal, hostile, and threatening actions. If you are the aggressor pointing a gun at someone, whether you are willing or intend to kill, the threat is still there. One threat is greater, but any threat of death or great bodily injury is justification for a lethal force defense. Dude, are you forgetting cops are people? Yes they make mistakes. These officers in the video did not make a mistake. Playing Russian Roulette is not in the job description. They have the same right to defend their lives as you and I do. Now for the officers in your situation. hell yes they screwed up. I am sorry that you have come to generalize all cops on a few bad experiences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aneblett 0 #150 June 12, 2003 yes, Justified but excessive from my point of view which isn't a very big one given the angles of the three feeds and the lack of good sound.(keep in mind that I wasn't there and have never been in the cops situation). I hope everything on that score turns out as it should.S.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 6 of 12 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Jib 0 #147 June 12, 2003 QuoteI'm not talking about being a movie hero. I'm talking about being careful to not take a human life for a wrong reason and being willing to accept the increased risks that approach will sometimes entail. "When a man points a gun in your face, you have two choices: die or kill the MF." Wade Garrett -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #148 June 12, 2003 QuoteQuoteSome people adamantly distrust them It's not so much about trusting the cop. Try to see things from his side....He doesn't know you. He may have been shot, stabbed, beaten in a situation just like the one you are in now. He may have had a buddy killed yesterday. You just don't know his perception of the situation. Cooperate!!!! and things will be fine. Try to see things from my side. I don't know him and he's pointing a gun at me. I have no reason to believe he doesn't intend to use it. In this situation, the only reasons I should cooperate are a) I don't have a gun of my own handy with which to kill before being killed or b) I simply *trust* he won't use his. Now what reason do I have to extend that kind of trust to a stranger? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #149 June 12, 2003 What you intend to communicate is far less important to what is perceived. This person was hostile toward the officer, resisted the officers, and wanted them to perceive that he had a gun. He did a good job with the last one. It is not tragic just because he did not have a gun. It was stupid--a direct consequence of HIS own illegal, hostile, and threatening actions. If you are the aggressor pointing a gun at someone, whether you are willing or intend to kill, the threat is still there. One threat is greater, but any threat of death or great bodily injury is justification for a lethal force defense. Dude, are you forgetting cops are people? Yes they make mistakes. These officers in the video did not make a mistake. Playing Russian Roulette is not in the job description. They have the same right to defend their lives as you and I do. Now for the officers in your situation. hell yes they screwed up. I am sorry that you have come to generalize all cops on a few bad experiences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #150 June 12, 2003 yes, Justified but excessive from my point of view which isn't a very big one given the angles of the three feeds and the lack of good sound.(keep in mind that I wasn't there and have never been in the cops situation). I hope everything on that score turns out as it should.S.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
