yardhippie 0 #51 July 21, 2003 I know... the phrase is so overused it has no value other than sarcasm... but I used to to have a bit or sarcasm too... thanks! Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,534 #52 July 21, 2003 To me, xenophobia is simply allowing your (generally vicarious) experience with people from other countries drive your perception of people from there. So you take what Harry said about those lousy Fensterians*, and take it for your own opinion. The best way to fight it is to figure that any country, and its people, is worth learning about. And that the vast majority of people, who are built JUST LIKE US!!!, love their countries. Another word for some of this xenophobia is "prejudice." That word doesn't only apply to racism. It could also apply to Fensterism*... Wendy W. *(nationality changed to protect the obvious)There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #53 July 21, 2003 QuoteTo me, xenophobia is simply allowing your (generally vicarious) experience with people from other countries drive your perception of people from there. With all do respect, taking a word like that, and modifying the actual definition to make it what you believe it is is the cause of this whole thread to begin with. Xenophobia is fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign. (In case you missed my dictionary quote earlier.) It is NOT directed toward a specific foreign country, but ALL of them. But if you all want to use big words and made up definitions to make people sound bad. Well, I think you are blue-ist! Edit to add: Or maybe you are just Phobophobic Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoby 0 #54 July 21, 2003 QuoteWith all do respect, taking a word like that, and modifying the actual definition to make it what you believe it is is the cause of this whole thread to begin with. I think wmw999 was saying that xenophobia stems from that sort of thinking, not that xenophobia is defined as that sort of thinking. Judging a group based on even a number of isolated incidents is not only ignorant, it's also highly counterproductive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #55 July 21, 2003 Quote Judging a group based on even a number of isolated incidents is not only ignorant, it's also highly counterproductive. Exactly how many would that be? For example, I've had well over 100 experiences with group XYZ and they were all horrible. Are those isolated incidences, even though all experiences were bad. NOT one was good. That makes someone ignorant? JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #56 July 21, 2003 Exactly. Thanks Judy! QuoteJudging a group based on even a number of isolated incidents is not only ignorant, it's also highly counterproductive. Not defending predjudice, xenophobia or anything like that, BUT- people form opinions based on observation (most of the time). When a person has one bad experience, they might think "Wow, that's guy is a jerk!" Throw in ten more bad experiences with people who share a characteristic, and I don't care how enlightened or logical that person is- he's going to have a hard time NOT extending his opinion to all who share that characteristic. 'Course, you don't always have to voice that opinion in a public forum, right? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malev 0 #57 July 21, 2003 QuoteWith all do respect, taking a word like that, and modifying the actual definition to make it what you believe it is is the cause of this whole thread to begin with. There are different definitions of Xenophobia, depending on where you look; and it can be used to describe the "dislike of representatives of a particular nation" (i.e. http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia). To be honest though, the exact definition is really neither here nor there; I don't see much of a difference between prejudice against one country or a hundred. At the end of the day, its still prejudice and thats just not a good thing! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #58 July 21, 2003 Quote Judging a group based on even a number of isolated incidents is not only ignorant, it's also highly counterproductive. Actually this is natural, very productive part of human/animal psychology that ensures the continued survival of a species. If you touch the fire once, and it burns you, you don't keep touching every fire you see just because that one might be a nice fire. Learning a lesson from a few bad experiences just keeps you from repeating the experiences. This natural discrimination has been around for Millions of years, Political correctness... what maybe 50? Which one do you think is going to win? And the argument that we are more civilized because we are human is species-centric and untrue. We are still animals defined by the laws of nature/survival. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #59 July 21, 2003 QuoteSubstitute American for French and I'll agree with you whole-heartedly. Yeah, it goes both ways, that I can agree on, since its all opinion anyways. Atleast the misquoting and the bullshit that goes along with trying to twist peoples posts has stopped for now!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #60 July 21, 2003 QuoteThere are different definitions of Xenophobia, depending on where you look; and it can be used to describe the "dislike of representatives of a particular nation" (i.e. http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia). To be honest though, the exact definition is really neither here nor there BZZZ wrong answer. Xenophobia is a scientific term, used to describe a specific condition. The definition I gave was the ONLY definiton listed in the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary. Which as I know, at least in the US, is a standard. The encyclopedia definition you picked up is proving my point exactly. It's definitions are more how the word is used not what is correct. Just because enough people use a word and twist the meaning to push a political agenda, does not make that usage correct. And btw... looking at that definition and several others in your source... I would have to say its a pretty biased source. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malev 0 #61 July 21, 2003 QuoteAtleast the misquoting and the bullshit that goes along with trying to twist peoples posts has stopped for now! I'm sorry, I've gone back and re-read the posts, and I am know quite sure you weren't misquoted at any time. Please do correct me though and show me specifically where and how you were misquoted, and crucially how these misquoted comments were no longer in context. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoby 0 #62 July 21, 2003 QuoteQuote Judging a group based on even a number of isolated incidents is not only ignorant, it's also highly counterproductive. Actually this is natural, very productive part of human/animal psychology that ensures the continued survival of a species. If you touch the fire once, and it burns you, you don't keep touching every fire you see just because that one might be a nice fire. Learning a lesson from a few bad experiences just keeps you from repeating the experiences. This natural discrimination has been around for Millions of years, Political correctness... what maybe 50? Which one do you think is going to win? And the argument that we are more civilized because we are human is species-centric and untrue. We are still animals defined by the laws of nature/survival. I'm not disagreeing that it is natural to make judgements based on experiences and extrapolating. I'm saying that it is not always correct. If I met people from the south on three occasions and all were racist hicks, I might form the opinion that all southerners are racist hicks. I would be wrong, of course, but it would be natural. A lot of traits that were adaptive in our species' past are maladaptive in modern society. As you said in your previous post, "I have not formed this opinion on a single experience, but on several." Even if it had been on a dozen occasions, or twenty, I would be unimpressed, but several? Come off it. You are capable of better than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malev 0 #63 July 21, 2003 QuoteThe definition I gave was the ONLY definiton listed in the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary. Which as I know, at least in the US, is a standard. The Oxford English Dictionary states Xenophobia as "A deep antipathy to foreigners"; we could spend all day debating whether this applies to foreigners of a single nation or many! The OED is the standard over here. But again, we gain nothing by this. I can tell you, however, that I know lots of nice French people. My mother is godmother to a French girl, and I've been to the country lots of times and met some great people. Yes, you get jerks (its the same everywhere!), but the vast majority of them are decent people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #64 July 21, 2003 You took half of one of my comments (you quoted it on the first page of the thread) and said it proved your point. I was saying the complete opposite, and that was quite clear through the rest of my comment (which you didn't quote). Ok, whatever, I'm done here before I get pissed off.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malev 0 #65 July 21, 2003 QuoteOk, whatever, I'm done here before I get pissed off. Ditto. Can we agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #66 July 21, 2003 Quoteposting anti-a-certain-nation posts*** christ-on-crutches, just come out and say FRANCE. The FRENCH. reply] He could be meaning the U.S. which takes a lot of bashing here...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlueEyedMonster 0 #67 July 21, 2003 QuoteThe Oxford English Dictionary states Xenophobia as "A deep antipathy to foreigners"; we could spend all day debating whether this applies to foreigners of a single nation or many! The OED is the standard over here. Well, a dictionary definition is not meant to be "interpreted." There is nothing to debate. Foreigners means foreigners--not people from a specific country/nation/race. So, it would appear that the OED and Websters are on the same page. QuoteBut the vast majority of them are decent people. Great, when I get the opportunity to meet them, then my opinion will change. But, not until I meet some nice french people. But every time I run across something like this quote from the ParaMag website when you click the english language link, it does nothing but reinforce my dislike.QuoteIn english please ! Despite ParaMag is a french magazine, we have translated some articles in "not so bad" english. For the savages who don't speak french. I would have to say that the french are more Xenophobic than we are. We/I are/am more "Frenchist" than anything else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Malev 0 #68 July 21, 2003 QuoteWell, a dictionary definition is not meant to be "interpreted." There is nothing to debate. Foreigners means foreigners--not people from a specific country/nation/race. So, it would appear that the OED and Websters are on the same page. The French are foreigners, therefore by hating the French you are hating foreigners. It is totally non-specific to the number of countries those foreigners come from. If you really don't want to call it xenophobia, then don't - but it still doesn't change the underlying issues of hate, prejudice and discrimination. QuoteGreat, when I get the opportunity to meet them, then my opinion will change. And until then, you will hate all French people simply because they are French? I'm sorry but that just blows my mind... QuoteFor the savages who don't speak french. This is a poorly translated bit of French, hardly something to base an opinion of an entire country on. And really, if the person writing that thought that non-French speakers were savages why on earth would they have gone to the courtesy of doing a translation at all? Remember, English isn't everyone's first language. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlueEyedMonster 0 #69 July 21, 2003 QuoteThe French are foreigners, therefore by hating the French you are hating foreigners. Keep on twisting it. French are part of a group that comprise foreigners... All those that live outside of a specific country. British, and Aussies are foreigners too.. I don't dislike them. QuoteIf you really don't want to call it xenophobia, then don't - but it still doesn't change the underlying issues of hate, prejudice and discrimination, I don't believe I said I hated french. Just dislike. Hate is more of a deeply rooted word. Be mindful of your accusations. QuoteAnd until then, you will hate all French people simply because they are French? I'm sorry but that just blows my mind... Well, that would be logical to dislike French people that are asses. So as long as I keep meeting asses I will dislike them. And when I meet nice french people I will like those french people that are nice. QuoteFor the savages who don't speak french.This is a poorly translated bit of French, And how exactly do you know this is poorly translated and not intended? Please state your evidence. Or, are you just misstating what you feel as fact without proof. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Malev 0 #70 July 21, 2003 QuoteKeep on twisting it. No more than you are twisting it to your definition, like I said earlier on this could be debated all day long... QuoteI don't believe I said I hated french. Just dislike. Hate is more of a deeply rooted word. Be mindful of your accusations. Well, according to dictionary.com... Quotehate 1. To feel hostility or animosity toward. 2/ To detest. 3. To feel dislike or distaste for: hates washing dishes. These dictionary definitions are wondeful things! Quotethat would be logical to dislike French people that are asses But we are talking about individuals here. I've met some French people who weren't very nice, I've met some Amercians who were absolute jerks. That doesn't mean all French or all Americans are jerks - and it is prejudice against the entire country to think so. QuoteAnd how exactly do you know this is poorly translated and not intended? Please state your evidence. The quote itself states that the translations are in "not so bad english". And, being able to speak French (studied it at University), I know that "sauvages" is a bit softer than the equivalent English - its much more tongue in cheek than the translation makes it appear. As I've said before though, this really is irrelevant. What is relevant is to make sure that people can come of this board, regardless of nationality, and not be offended because people are discriminating against them based on their nationality. The French are not all American-hating, cheese-eating "asses" any more than all Americans are dumb overweight hillbillies or that I am really tight and regularly put on a kilt and toss the caber. And if everyone could understand this and accept this, the world would be a much better place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crapflinger2000 1 #71 July 21, 2003 Don't have time to read the entire thread so the point may have already been made: In talk back, people are exercising their right to freedom of speech, with some general "no personal attack" guidelines guiding them (I have to say, I am surprised and pleased at how well this self-policing seems to work). If someone says that they hate the French or Syrians or flat flyers or truck drivers or otter-scrubbers or whoever (either outright or implied), then deal with it. It is their right to express their feelings... It is then OUR right (and duty as intelligent humans and readers) to filter out the meaningful posts that may bring up some discussion worthy issue from the juvenile crap.... Freedom of speech is a great thing. The fine line of where to regulate it (i.e. shouting "fire" in a theatre or allowing personal attacks to clog up a forum of limited bandwith) is a hard one to determine... Personally, I think this forum has it just about right.... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlueEyedMonster 0 #72 July 21, 2003 QuoteNo more than you are twisting it to your definition, Mine was literal, yours was reading into it. Quotehate 1. To feel hostility or animosity toward. 2/ To detest. 3. To feel dislike or distaste for: hates washing dishes. Damn, I slipped up. Ok you got me there, but Definition 3 only, not 1 or 2. Those are stronger. QuoteBut we are talking about individuals here. Yes we are, and as I've stated, my opinion has been formed by individuals... who whether they like it or not, represent their country when they come here. QuoteI've met some Amercians who were absolute jerks. So have I, but the difference is I have met nice Americans. In my experience I have not met any nice french people. QuoteThe quote itself states that the translations are in "not so bad english"...//... I know that "sauvages" is a bit softer than the equivalent English - its much more tongue in cheek... Ok I can see that. But without the input that you just gave me. That statement is quite offensive. How was I or any other person supposed to know it is not? QuoteAs I've said before though, this really is irrelevant. Nothing is irrelevant. Arguing over stupid points still educates. And by the way... I'm skinny and really like cheese! Should I quit pushing your buttons now? The whole point of my argument is... by saying Xenophobic, you are creating a generalization. No different but opposite of the generalization that I dislike all french people because of few bad apples. You are no better or no worse than I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #73 July 21, 2003 i'm really really afraid of xenon gas. that's scary shit right there. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BBKid 0 #74 July 21, 2003 Quick note on the "savages" thing. The derivation of the word is the same as that of "barbarian", and doesn't actually mean anything inherently negative or demeaning about the "savage" in question. It simply means that the savage is not from the same place/nationality as the speaker. Therefore in Latin texts etc the references to Greek barbarians doesn't mean they credit them with the same degree of technological or intellectual innovation as, for example, the Gauls. It's an adaptation of the term by English-speaking people that has caused the change in perceived meaning. Sorry to be all wanky about this, but you were going on about dictionary definitions being absolute. Nick --------------------------- "I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #75 July 21, 2003 QuoteNo different but opposite of the generalization that I dislike all french people because of few bad apples I hate everyone who generalizes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
BlueEyedMonster 0 #67 July 21, 2003 QuoteThe Oxford English Dictionary states Xenophobia as "A deep antipathy to foreigners"; we could spend all day debating whether this applies to foreigners of a single nation or many! The OED is the standard over here. Well, a dictionary definition is not meant to be "interpreted." There is nothing to debate. Foreigners means foreigners--not people from a specific country/nation/race. So, it would appear that the OED and Websters are on the same page. QuoteBut the vast majority of them are decent people. Great, when I get the opportunity to meet them, then my opinion will change. But, not until I meet some nice french people. But every time I run across something like this quote from the ParaMag website when you click the english language link, it does nothing but reinforce my dislike.QuoteIn english please ! Despite ParaMag is a french magazine, we have translated some articles in "not so bad" english. For the savages who don't speak french. I would have to say that the french are more Xenophobic than we are. We/I are/am more "Frenchist" than anything else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malev 0 #68 July 21, 2003 QuoteWell, a dictionary definition is not meant to be "interpreted." There is nothing to debate. Foreigners means foreigners--not people from a specific country/nation/race. So, it would appear that the OED and Websters are on the same page. The French are foreigners, therefore by hating the French you are hating foreigners. It is totally non-specific to the number of countries those foreigners come from. If you really don't want to call it xenophobia, then don't - but it still doesn't change the underlying issues of hate, prejudice and discrimination. QuoteGreat, when I get the opportunity to meet them, then my opinion will change. And until then, you will hate all French people simply because they are French? I'm sorry but that just blows my mind... QuoteFor the savages who don't speak french. This is a poorly translated bit of French, hardly something to base an opinion of an entire country on. And really, if the person writing that thought that non-French speakers were savages why on earth would they have gone to the courtesy of doing a translation at all? Remember, English isn't everyone's first language. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #69 July 21, 2003 QuoteThe French are foreigners, therefore by hating the French you are hating foreigners. Keep on twisting it. French are part of a group that comprise foreigners... All those that live outside of a specific country. British, and Aussies are foreigners too.. I don't dislike them. QuoteIf you really don't want to call it xenophobia, then don't - but it still doesn't change the underlying issues of hate, prejudice and discrimination, I don't believe I said I hated french. Just dislike. Hate is more of a deeply rooted word. Be mindful of your accusations. QuoteAnd until then, you will hate all French people simply because they are French? I'm sorry but that just blows my mind... Well, that would be logical to dislike French people that are asses. So as long as I keep meeting asses I will dislike them. And when I meet nice french people I will like those french people that are nice. QuoteFor the savages who don't speak french.This is a poorly translated bit of French, And how exactly do you know this is poorly translated and not intended? Please state your evidence. Or, are you just misstating what you feel as fact without proof. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malev 0 #70 July 21, 2003 QuoteKeep on twisting it. No more than you are twisting it to your definition, like I said earlier on this could be debated all day long... QuoteI don't believe I said I hated french. Just dislike. Hate is more of a deeply rooted word. Be mindful of your accusations. Well, according to dictionary.com... Quotehate 1. To feel hostility or animosity toward. 2/ To detest. 3. To feel dislike or distaste for: hates washing dishes. These dictionary definitions are wondeful things! Quotethat would be logical to dislike French people that are asses But we are talking about individuals here. I've met some French people who weren't very nice, I've met some Amercians who were absolute jerks. That doesn't mean all French or all Americans are jerks - and it is prejudice against the entire country to think so. QuoteAnd how exactly do you know this is poorly translated and not intended? Please state your evidence. The quote itself states that the translations are in "not so bad english". And, being able to speak French (studied it at University), I know that "sauvages" is a bit softer than the equivalent English - its much more tongue in cheek than the translation makes it appear. As I've said before though, this really is irrelevant. What is relevant is to make sure that people can come of this board, regardless of nationality, and not be offended because people are discriminating against them based on their nationality. The French are not all American-hating, cheese-eating "asses" any more than all Americans are dumb overweight hillbillies or that I am really tight and regularly put on a kilt and toss the caber. And if everyone could understand this and accept this, the world would be a much better place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #71 July 21, 2003 Don't have time to read the entire thread so the point may have already been made: In talk back, people are exercising their right to freedom of speech, with some general "no personal attack" guidelines guiding them (I have to say, I am surprised and pleased at how well this self-policing seems to work). If someone says that they hate the French or Syrians or flat flyers or truck drivers or otter-scrubbers or whoever (either outright or implied), then deal with it. It is their right to express their feelings... It is then OUR right (and duty as intelligent humans and readers) to filter out the meaningful posts that may bring up some discussion worthy issue from the juvenile crap.... Freedom of speech is a great thing. The fine line of where to regulate it (i.e. shouting "fire" in a theatre or allowing personal attacks to clog up a forum of limited bandwith) is a hard one to determine... Personally, I think this forum has it just about right.... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #72 July 21, 2003 QuoteNo more than you are twisting it to your definition, Mine was literal, yours was reading into it. Quotehate 1. To feel hostility or animosity toward. 2/ To detest. 3. To feel dislike or distaste for: hates washing dishes. Damn, I slipped up. Ok you got me there, but Definition 3 only, not 1 or 2. Those are stronger. QuoteBut we are talking about individuals here. Yes we are, and as I've stated, my opinion has been formed by individuals... who whether they like it or not, represent their country when they come here. QuoteI've met some Amercians who were absolute jerks. So have I, but the difference is I have met nice Americans. In my experience I have not met any nice french people. QuoteThe quote itself states that the translations are in "not so bad english"...//... I know that "sauvages" is a bit softer than the equivalent English - its much more tongue in cheek... Ok I can see that. But without the input that you just gave me. That statement is quite offensive. How was I or any other person supposed to know it is not? QuoteAs I've said before though, this really is irrelevant. Nothing is irrelevant. Arguing over stupid points still educates. And by the way... I'm skinny and really like cheese! Should I quit pushing your buttons now? The whole point of my argument is... by saying Xenophobic, you are creating a generalization. No different but opposite of the generalization that I dislike all french people because of few bad apples. You are no better or no worse than I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #73 July 21, 2003 i'm really really afraid of xenon gas. that's scary shit right there. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BBKid 0 #74 July 21, 2003 Quick note on the "savages" thing. The derivation of the word is the same as that of "barbarian", and doesn't actually mean anything inherently negative or demeaning about the "savage" in question. It simply means that the savage is not from the same place/nationality as the speaker. Therefore in Latin texts etc the references to Greek barbarians doesn't mean they credit them with the same degree of technological or intellectual innovation as, for example, the Gauls. It's an adaptation of the term by English-speaking people that has caused the change in perceived meaning. Sorry to be all wanky about this, but you were going on about dictionary definitions being absolute. Nick --------------------------- "I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #75 July 21, 2003 QuoteNo different but opposite of the generalization that I dislike all french people because of few bad apples I hate everyone who generalizes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
