jfields 0 #226 June 12, 2003 QuoteI don't believe you can really change anyone's mind about a thing like this through chatting on a web forum. And anyway I think everyone just has to walk his/her own path. I'd give that a big hearty "Amen", but I'm an atheist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #227 June 12, 2003 Quotetrue, but there are some atheists who are the same way towards believers. I haven't exactly read this thread much, but I did stumble upon this! How very true! It's either, "You'll go to Hell for not believing!" or "You're stupid! Science explains everything!" My guess is that the real "truth" lies somewhere in between both extremes. And, I also think some people "fear" abandoning their thoughts that have been given to them by authoritative figures since they were born to check out the other viewpoint. On the flipside, as of right now, science still can't explain everything, so atheists may be wrong as well. As with everything else, try to see the other viewpoint and where they are coming from.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #228 June 12, 2003 after re-reading all of your posts on this thread Zen, can you STILL honestly think you don't have any animosity, any issue w/ anyone's religion? Now, I agree with you, that the worst case for Christianity is some of the "Christians." However, not every Christian is that way and you really seem to have big issues with ALL of Christianity. You repeat the same vitriolic remarks in your posts. You seem to be EXTREMELY negative about Christianity. So why is that? Did someone not turn you the other cheek? I think it's fair to say that you have a more than a few of us praying for you. Don't bother telling to us to not waste our time, b/c we're going to do it anyway... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites robskydiv 0 #229 June 12, 2003 I thank God for my wife and son. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #230 June 12, 2003 yes i have been arguing this for the majority of my adult (and a good portion of my childhood) life. My sunday school teachers were appalled when i told them i wasnt guilty of any 'original sin" and did not think i should be made to feel quilty because of it. I have never been separated from God and certainly do not need a blood sacrifice to redeem myself.. after the first thousand christians tell me how sorry they are i'm going to hell and will pray for my soul i tend to get a bit irate.. if you feel the need to retreat into another mans dogma that is fine and good, but dont tell me i'm damned or 'decieved by the enemy' because i do not need it to have a personal relationship with the divine.. however i also have some very good friends and mentors who are devot christians and do not judge me based on the fact i cannot believe their myths. I have had many long discussions into the wee hours with them about philosophy and spirituality, Dr Rohlig has even agreed that the majority draw of the christian faith is in the social support structure, and the sense of belonging it gives, some people need that, some people do not, and others still use it as a means to separate themselves and make themselves feel 'better' than those who dont belong.. ie the "church lady" mentality. i have no issues with your religion at all. Its fundamental basis (love thy neighbor, do unto others etc..) is undisputably the best way to live ones life, however it is certainly not unique or original to the christian culture. well wishes are always welcome, however if your prayers include "help this sinner to find the way to your light" you can keep them to yourself.. as i have my own path to follow and it has nothing to do with your mythos... "darkness is a state of mind, i can go where you would stumble"____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #231 June 12, 2003 I have not ONCE said you were going to Hell. Not once. And I will not. It may be a distinct possibility for you, but again, that is not for me to say. One of my exceptions with you is the negativism you have and that you seem to generalize it to ALL or, equally as offensive, to MOST Christians. Another problem I have with the things you say such as, "if you feel the need to retreat into another man's dogma, that is fine and good..." Can you get more condescending? Probably, but you wouldn't have to go far to get there. You have no idea why I believe the things I do. But since some people you have met seem to fall into that category for you, it seems you just carte blanche apply it to everyone. I think for myself but I am not above listening to sages and saints who have gone before me who were wiser and holier than I am. My motto is faith seeking understanding, not blind acceptance. /sarcasm on/ and, by the way, cute little quote about darkness/sarcasm off is that supposed to scare us or something? i've seen darkness. real darkness. don't assume i'm naive. and I wouldn't stumble there b/c I don't walk in those ways anymore... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FliegendeWolf 0 #232 June 12, 2003 I have had my own experiences with some Christians in my life that have put a very sour taste in my mouth. Sometimes it is easy to universalize those experiences into all Christians and all Christianity. I will admit I do it myself. I'll admit that it isn't helpful. That said, I think all of your posts have been very thoughtful and inobtrusive, sinker. If some Christians make poor examples which lead some to prejudge all of Christianity, you are doing just the opposite.A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #233 June 12, 2003 Many, MANY thanks for that compliment. (And thanks too for letting me know how to pronounce your name!!) I really try not to come across like a Bible thumpin' intollerant asshole . I certainly am not the best person at practicing my faith, but it's good to know I'm doing SOMETHING right... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #234 June 12, 2003 and I love your sig line... my FAVORITE movie line!!!!! I laugh every time I read it. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EricaH 0 #235 June 12, 2003 QuoteI really try not to come across like a Bible thumpin' intollerant asshole . I certainly am not the best person at practicing my faith, but it's good to know I'm doing SOMETHING right... It's not that you walk the walk or talk the talk... both of those can & tend to be very off putting & detrimental. It's that you try - that's where success comes from. There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear. PMS #227 (just like the TV show) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #236 June 12, 2003 well if i'm not going to your hell (and i'm not, dont worry on that issue) then why pray for me? that my "eyes would be opened" to see the world the way you do? wont happen. I prefer to experience things without filters.. but you HAVE adopted another mans dogma, why is that offensive? you went looking (if you went looking many dont, they never question the faith they were indoctrinated with) for god and found her in the words of other men. I went looking for god and found him out in the world, thru my own experiences, with my own eyes..then i went back to see what other men said..if their experience agreed with my i accept it (much of the basic christian theology does..right up until you get to the ONLY path part) when it is arbitrary and contrary to my direct experience of divinity, when it is obviously written with a cultural or political adjenda apart from that of enlightenment, i throw it away i KNOW my generalizations dont apply to everyone (i guess you missed the part where i said some of the BEST people i know are christian) but as soon as you begin to "pray for my salvation" it applies to YOU, because you are now saying that what i know to be true, have experienced directly again and again, personally, the communion i seek everytime i throw myself into the sky, or play on the waves.. is false. and you couldnt be more mistaken. Have I ever said you are ignorant? deceived? Wasting your Sundays? Following a blind path to nothingness? Of course not… why is it so hard to accept that there is more than one path to divinity? oh yeah, your dogma tells you there isnt. break your vase.. [I]actually the quote is from a song by Wolfsheim. it just fits..darkness doesn’t frighten me, I walk those paths regularly and find god under the moonlight and in the depths as well…[/I] you missed the important part… “darkness is a state of mind….”____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #237 June 12, 2003 sorry man. your attitude truly saddens me. if you think I'm a fool for that, so be it. there is one thing... how can you be so convinced that what you've seen/experienced w/ your own eyes is the TRUTH? I mean, are you THAT smart? THAT undeceivable? Sorry Zen. That just isn't the case. Can't make you see it though. And you think your "dogma" is so original? Because it's so personal to you??? And you are so wrong when you made your little comment, "oh yeah, your dogma tells you there isn't." That little statement is so full of presumption. When was it that I said there is only "ONE" path to divinity? Look hard man, you'll never say that I said that. The faith I subscribe to, one that is historically consistant in it's teachings on faith and morals, throughout many differing cultures and political systems, says that in most religions there are elements of the divine. Some have more elements than others. If I read your posts right, you have me pegged as a man who sees only through filters instead of with my eyes wide open; who blindly accepts "dogmas" that are handed down from other mere mortals. I don't know which bothers me more, the arrogance of your assumptions or insensitivity of them. You're so convinced you're right about them. Truth is, They're just so shallow and unoriginal. And they couldn't be further from the truth. Break my vase? No thanks. It's not a vase. It's a pearl. A pearl of great price that I found in a field. And I spent ALL my money to buy that field so the pearl would be mine. And it is. And I will pray for your salvation. If my beliefs ARE wrong, I'm wasting no one's time but my own. And in a way, I'm glad that irritates you... it means to me that we're onto something... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,439 #238 June 12, 2003 QuoteI certainly am not the best person at practicing my faith, But you are practicing it, and not just figuring it's already perfect. I too agree that you're an example of what you think is right -- how better to show that something works. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #239 June 12, 2003 i'm humbled by your response. i hold you in high esteem based on your job and your posts, which are sensitive and erudite. your comment means alot. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #240 June 12, 2003 it doesnt irritate me at all..i care nothing for what you chose to believe, your life, your faith and your soul are yours to determine..what irrates me is the arrogance you have to tell me i cant be right because you dont think that way... i dont think your a fool at all if you follow the path you believe to be correct, instead of following one someone tells you is correct. you seem to think that the majority of my statements apply to YOU. I do not know that they do, you have to look at your own behavior to determine that, i have never met you..my statements DO apply to the majority of christians i have met (and i have met quite a few) most people want to be told what to do, how to do it, what to believe, no thought required..your religion names them correctly.. sheep. if you'd like sometime we can start (another we've done it before) another thread about exactly how 'consistant' the christian faith has been.. (you have to include ALL the religious beliefs incorporated into the current evolution of your faith..) Christians like to pretend it hasnt evolved, but like everything else it has.. all i KNOW is what i experience, i question my experience continually to test my assumptions about it..and it has thus far led me to where i am, which has nothing to do with the carpenter you worship. Which of course does not make your belief false, it means that it is not true FOR me..you (christians) are the one who claims there can only be one truth for everything.. to me that is a very narrow way of thought, it does not fit with my knowledge and experience, intellectually, physically, emotionally, spiritually, so i reject it FOR MYSELF...i never presume to tell anyone about the nature of their own unprovable attitudes on divinity.. and that is the fundamental difference.. i didnt have to spend anything..i was given it all the day i was born into this wonderous creation, to play and laugh and love...culture gave me a vessel to put experience in..created and molded by others before i knew how to create one myself, to be come self aware it is nessesary to break that vessel and create it anew..for some it may look much as it did before, for others once they realize there is more than they have been told all their lives..it may become something wonderfully different.. god doesnt hide from anyone, you just have to open yourself to see...why would i ever look to another mans mind for god???____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #241 June 12, 2003 Can you honestly tell me that, since I call myself a Christian, one who believes in Scripture as the inspired word of God, that I follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, even though I've evaluated these teachings myself and found them to be consistent and true, that I haven't swallowed them part and parcel from the battering ram of someone else, that you do not look at me without disdain? Without contempt? As anything but a man who can "think for himself?" That you do not look at me as a servile sheep? It sounds disengenuous for you to say that you don't see me and so many others that way based on your posts. You may not have been addressing me personally, as you said, when you wrote about "you christians..." but, you certainly do seem to have unjunstly generalized to "all christians" (except of course, those you say you are close to). I don't think that generalization is fair or deserving. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #242 June 12, 2003 perhaps not, but i base my generalizations on my experience of christianity & christians, and i've met far more hypocrites and church lady types than i have true believers, those who have questioned and evaluated their faith, and come back to a core belief...most of those who have will freely admit that there is quite a bit of the 'word of man' written into what is touted as the 'word of god' and that makes a great deal of the dogma suspect even if there are universal truths contained there as well. Spirituality is one thing, religion is primarily a means of social control if you want to start another thread we can certainly discuss the contradictions inherent in christianity & catholicism (and its sources even your fundamental myth..ie the resurrection theme appears elsewhere first, and far earlier as well..) try not to take offence at the word myth. it applies to all beliefs but yes, if you try to tell me that every word, every sentence of the book you call bible is true, the divinely inspired word of god uninterrupted by man and the culture it came thru, then i will file you as gullible sheep. i dont think your saying that, but it is VERY difficult for most christians to accept that the will of man has a great deal to do with how their religion evolved..or accept that the "word" of god might be present in EVERYTHING and therefore offers alternate routes to divinity, than the one they have chosen. its part of the 'belonging' need of humans, the desire to feel and say "we are better than they are.."____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #243 June 12, 2003 Quotereligion is primarily a means of social control Incorrect. It HAS been used that way, but it isn't ALWAYS that way. It's a shame it has been used that way, b/c now so many view religion w/ contempt. It's fundamental purpose is not about control. I take no offense to the word myth. However, I believe that some of the Christian "myths" aren't that at all. Quote it is VERY difficult for most christians to accept that the will of man has a great deal to do with how their religion evolved..or accept that the word of god might be present in EVERYTHING and therefore offers alternate routes to divinity. It is very difficult for a lot of Christians to accept that, b/c even though the will of men (better said, the corrupt motivations of some, even many, men) have affected Christianity, such men have not destroyed Christianity. Nor have they fundamentally altered it's central truths. Are their tenets of Christianity that are disputed? Sure... Catholicism has never held any belief in the rapture. The texts that seemingly refer to the rapture, according to Catholic exegesis were misinterpreted by some Protestants. Is that a necessary, essential truth to Christianity? No. Hell no. It in no way changes or alters the salvific mission of Christ. Quotets part of the 'belonging' need of humans, the desire to feel and say "we are better than they are.." How very Marxist you are in saying that. Religion is not the opiate of the masses. Your assertion hardly makes your theology original. It simply means you are a different sort of sheep. But a sheep all the same. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #244 June 12, 2003 Quotetry not to take offence at the word myth. it applies to all beliefs I know you are referring to "religious" beliefs or beliefs about God. But why is it such a so far gone conclusion for you to possibly concede that, if there were a God, that such a being would want to reveal Himself? And reveal Himself in a way that can be infallibly perceived/received by mankind? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #245 June 12, 2003 i believe he does, i will argue even more vehemently with atheists who say he doesnt, what i do not believe is the dogma that says "THIS and only THIS way will i reveal myself to you"..when direct experience tells me otherwise.. touch her hand everytime you leave the plane, feel his breath in the wind off the ocean, hear the throb of her heart as you plunge beneath the waves...the message, the word (and far more than any single religions version of it) is out there...it simply requires you to look, without blinders, of ANY nature...it is SOOOO easy, open your eyes and breath....and yet every major religion puts up theological barriers to the direct experience of divinity..hoops you need to jump thru before god will speak to you..a means of controlling how you think and believe.. QuoteHow very Marxist you are in saying that. Religion is not the opiate of the masses. Your assertion hardly makes your theology original. It simply means you are a different sort of sheep. But a sheep all the same. marx was right in this reguard, television has suplanted it as the opiate of choice in the modern world not sure where or why you think this is part of my 'theology' this is simple social observation...do you go to church??? why? why do you think most people go?? have you asked??met any baptists? methodists? in some demominations the social ascpects are very obvious..and very much the means by which they keep their sheep interested and attending....(and yes STILL) uses them as a means of control, a way to pass culture and mores from one generation to the next, a way of passing those same mores on to other cultures you veiw as heathen, these are all forms of social control..and can be observed right now...go turn on your TV to any televanglist...and see how the sheep are led by the modern church, the only difference is we live in a country, an age where the church is no longer allowed to press its beliefs on others by force, but you can see from the rethoric it still wishes it could..it has just become more subtle, and must use marketing now instead of violence..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #246 June 12, 2003 are you a panthiest? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #247 June 12, 2003 i'm not an 'ist' anything. name aside trying to box the infinite into tangible human words is exactly how religions begin and fail..god is by nessesity indefinable..to attempt to do so only exposes the limits of human thought... far better to experience than to attempt to break it down into small easily digestible bits...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #248 June 12, 2003 Quotetouch her hand everytime you leave the plane, feel his breath in the wind off the ocean, hear the throb of her heart as you plunge beneath the waves we actually may (partially) agree on something here! I do indeed experience God in His creation. His signature, so to speak, is in fact everywhere. But I do not confuse the creation from the Creator. They are not the same. Nor are they completely mutually exclusive. The wind is not God, but it sure can teach us something about God. It and He are invisible, yet can be very powerful and also can be soft and gentle. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,439 #249 June 12, 2003 There are many christians who think critically, some who go to church because it's social -- it fulfills a need they perceive. Why do you go to the dropzone? The problem is that most of the religious folks who think critically are too busy watching and listening to the world to preach at folks who are clearly uninterested, or even actively uninterested. There's a very fine line between agnosticism and theism sometimes, and there are atheists who go to church because they appreciate the opportunity to reflect with others. When one chooses to believe in something (or not to believe in something, or to disbelieve it), there's always the opportunity to evaluate new information. Just because some people think the word "christian" only applies to people just like them doesn't make it true. I might choose to apply that word to myself -- but when have you heard me preach to others (well, other than objecting to French jokes ) I like standing for things rather than against them. I don't get to lean that way, but it's much stronger, and I don't care nearly as much about props being taken away, because I'm not as dependent on the beliefs. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #250 June 12, 2003 Quote But I do not confuse the creation from the Creator. They are not the same. Nor are they completely mutually exclusive. The wind is not God see here your already starting to get into christian thelology..that which holds that God is sperate and aloof from his creation, that we need an intermediary to reach her...this intermediary was once the priests, then evolved into christ, but i never understood why anyone would find such 'middle men' necessary or desirable.. the only reasoning i can find is that of control..."god says do this" they never have been for me, why would i pretend they were...and yes if you were wondering, my mother was asked not to bring me to sunday school anymore..i confused to many of the other kids who were oblivious to the 'jesus loves me' cult being poured in their ears by well meaning adults..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. 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Vallerina 2 #227 June 12, 2003 Quotetrue, but there are some atheists who are the same way towards believers. I haven't exactly read this thread much, but I did stumble upon this! How very true! It's either, "You'll go to Hell for not believing!" or "You're stupid! Science explains everything!" My guess is that the real "truth" lies somewhere in between both extremes. And, I also think some people "fear" abandoning their thoughts that have been given to them by authoritative figures since they were born to check out the other viewpoint. On the flipside, as of right now, science still can't explain everything, so atheists may be wrong as well. As with everything else, try to see the other viewpoint and where they are coming from.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #228 June 12, 2003 after re-reading all of your posts on this thread Zen, can you STILL honestly think you don't have any animosity, any issue w/ anyone's religion? Now, I agree with you, that the worst case for Christianity is some of the "Christians." However, not every Christian is that way and you really seem to have big issues with ALL of Christianity. You repeat the same vitriolic remarks in your posts. You seem to be EXTREMELY negative about Christianity. So why is that? Did someone not turn you the other cheek? I think it's fair to say that you have a more than a few of us praying for you. Don't bother telling to us to not waste our time, b/c we're going to do it anyway... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robskydiv 0 #229 June 12, 2003 I thank God for my wife and son. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #230 June 12, 2003 yes i have been arguing this for the majority of my adult (and a good portion of my childhood) life. My sunday school teachers were appalled when i told them i wasnt guilty of any 'original sin" and did not think i should be made to feel quilty because of it. I have never been separated from God and certainly do not need a blood sacrifice to redeem myself.. after the first thousand christians tell me how sorry they are i'm going to hell and will pray for my soul i tend to get a bit irate.. if you feel the need to retreat into another mans dogma that is fine and good, but dont tell me i'm damned or 'decieved by the enemy' because i do not need it to have a personal relationship with the divine.. however i also have some very good friends and mentors who are devot christians and do not judge me based on the fact i cannot believe their myths. I have had many long discussions into the wee hours with them about philosophy and spirituality, Dr Rohlig has even agreed that the majority draw of the christian faith is in the social support structure, and the sense of belonging it gives, some people need that, some people do not, and others still use it as a means to separate themselves and make themselves feel 'better' than those who dont belong.. ie the "church lady" mentality. i have no issues with your religion at all. Its fundamental basis (love thy neighbor, do unto others etc..) is undisputably the best way to live ones life, however it is certainly not unique or original to the christian culture. well wishes are always welcome, however if your prayers include "help this sinner to find the way to your light" you can keep them to yourself.. as i have my own path to follow and it has nothing to do with your mythos... "darkness is a state of mind, i can go where you would stumble"____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #231 June 12, 2003 I have not ONCE said you were going to Hell. Not once. And I will not. It may be a distinct possibility for you, but again, that is not for me to say. One of my exceptions with you is the negativism you have and that you seem to generalize it to ALL or, equally as offensive, to MOST Christians. Another problem I have with the things you say such as, "if you feel the need to retreat into another man's dogma, that is fine and good..." Can you get more condescending? Probably, but you wouldn't have to go far to get there. You have no idea why I believe the things I do. But since some people you have met seem to fall into that category for you, it seems you just carte blanche apply it to everyone. I think for myself but I am not above listening to sages and saints who have gone before me who were wiser and holier than I am. My motto is faith seeking understanding, not blind acceptance. /sarcasm on/ and, by the way, cute little quote about darkness/sarcasm off is that supposed to scare us or something? i've seen darkness. real darkness. don't assume i'm naive. and I wouldn't stumble there b/c I don't walk in those ways anymore... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #232 June 12, 2003 I have had my own experiences with some Christians in my life that have put a very sour taste in my mouth. Sometimes it is easy to universalize those experiences into all Christians and all Christianity. I will admit I do it myself. I'll admit that it isn't helpful. That said, I think all of your posts have been very thoughtful and inobtrusive, sinker. If some Christians make poor examples which lead some to prejudge all of Christianity, you are doing just the opposite.A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #233 June 12, 2003 Many, MANY thanks for that compliment. (And thanks too for letting me know how to pronounce your name!!) I really try not to come across like a Bible thumpin' intollerant asshole . I certainly am not the best person at practicing my faith, but it's good to know I'm doing SOMETHING right... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #234 June 12, 2003 and I love your sig line... my FAVORITE movie line!!!!! I laugh every time I read it. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricaH 0 #235 June 12, 2003 QuoteI really try not to come across like a Bible thumpin' intollerant asshole . I certainly am not the best person at practicing my faith, but it's good to know I'm doing SOMETHING right... It's not that you walk the walk or talk the talk... both of those can & tend to be very off putting & detrimental. It's that you try - that's where success comes from. There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear. PMS #227 (just like the TV show) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #236 June 12, 2003 well if i'm not going to your hell (and i'm not, dont worry on that issue) then why pray for me? that my "eyes would be opened" to see the world the way you do? wont happen. I prefer to experience things without filters.. but you HAVE adopted another mans dogma, why is that offensive? you went looking (if you went looking many dont, they never question the faith they were indoctrinated with) for god and found her in the words of other men. I went looking for god and found him out in the world, thru my own experiences, with my own eyes..then i went back to see what other men said..if their experience agreed with my i accept it (much of the basic christian theology does..right up until you get to the ONLY path part) when it is arbitrary and contrary to my direct experience of divinity, when it is obviously written with a cultural or political adjenda apart from that of enlightenment, i throw it away i KNOW my generalizations dont apply to everyone (i guess you missed the part where i said some of the BEST people i know are christian) but as soon as you begin to "pray for my salvation" it applies to YOU, because you are now saying that what i know to be true, have experienced directly again and again, personally, the communion i seek everytime i throw myself into the sky, or play on the waves.. is false. and you couldnt be more mistaken. Have I ever said you are ignorant? deceived? Wasting your Sundays? Following a blind path to nothingness? Of course not… why is it so hard to accept that there is more than one path to divinity? oh yeah, your dogma tells you there isnt. break your vase.. [I]actually the quote is from a song by Wolfsheim. it just fits..darkness doesn’t frighten me, I walk those paths regularly and find god under the moonlight and in the depths as well…[/I] you missed the important part… “darkness is a state of mind….”____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #237 June 12, 2003 sorry man. your attitude truly saddens me. if you think I'm a fool for that, so be it. there is one thing... how can you be so convinced that what you've seen/experienced w/ your own eyes is the TRUTH? I mean, are you THAT smart? THAT undeceivable? Sorry Zen. That just isn't the case. Can't make you see it though. And you think your "dogma" is so original? Because it's so personal to you??? And you are so wrong when you made your little comment, "oh yeah, your dogma tells you there isn't." That little statement is so full of presumption. When was it that I said there is only "ONE" path to divinity? Look hard man, you'll never say that I said that. The faith I subscribe to, one that is historically consistant in it's teachings on faith and morals, throughout many differing cultures and political systems, says that in most religions there are elements of the divine. Some have more elements than others. If I read your posts right, you have me pegged as a man who sees only through filters instead of with my eyes wide open; who blindly accepts "dogmas" that are handed down from other mere mortals. I don't know which bothers me more, the arrogance of your assumptions or insensitivity of them. You're so convinced you're right about them. Truth is, They're just so shallow and unoriginal. And they couldn't be further from the truth. Break my vase? No thanks. It's not a vase. It's a pearl. A pearl of great price that I found in a field. And I spent ALL my money to buy that field so the pearl would be mine. And it is. And I will pray for your salvation. If my beliefs ARE wrong, I'm wasting no one's time but my own. And in a way, I'm glad that irritates you... it means to me that we're onto something... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #238 June 12, 2003 QuoteI certainly am not the best person at practicing my faith, But you are practicing it, and not just figuring it's already perfect. I too agree that you're an example of what you think is right -- how better to show that something works. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #239 June 12, 2003 i'm humbled by your response. i hold you in high esteem based on your job and your posts, which are sensitive and erudite. your comment means alot. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #240 June 12, 2003 it doesnt irritate me at all..i care nothing for what you chose to believe, your life, your faith and your soul are yours to determine..what irrates me is the arrogance you have to tell me i cant be right because you dont think that way... i dont think your a fool at all if you follow the path you believe to be correct, instead of following one someone tells you is correct. you seem to think that the majority of my statements apply to YOU. I do not know that they do, you have to look at your own behavior to determine that, i have never met you..my statements DO apply to the majority of christians i have met (and i have met quite a few) most people want to be told what to do, how to do it, what to believe, no thought required..your religion names them correctly.. sheep. if you'd like sometime we can start (another we've done it before) another thread about exactly how 'consistant' the christian faith has been.. (you have to include ALL the religious beliefs incorporated into the current evolution of your faith..) Christians like to pretend it hasnt evolved, but like everything else it has.. all i KNOW is what i experience, i question my experience continually to test my assumptions about it..and it has thus far led me to where i am, which has nothing to do with the carpenter you worship. Which of course does not make your belief false, it means that it is not true FOR me..you (christians) are the one who claims there can only be one truth for everything.. to me that is a very narrow way of thought, it does not fit with my knowledge and experience, intellectually, physically, emotionally, spiritually, so i reject it FOR MYSELF...i never presume to tell anyone about the nature of their own unprovable attitudes on divinity.. and that is the fundamental difference.. i didnt have to spend anything..i was given it all the day i was born into this wonderous creation, to play and laugh and love...culture gave me a vessel to put experience in..created and molded by others before i knew how to create one myself, to be come self aware it is nessesary to break that vessel and create it anew..for some it may look much as it did before, for others once they realize there is more than they have been told all their lives..it may become something wonderfully different.. god doesnt hide from anyone, you just have to open yourself to see...why would i ever look to another mans mind for god???____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #241 June 12, 2003 Can you honestly tell me that, since I call myself a Christian, one who believes in Scripture as the inspired word of God, that I follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, even though I've evaluated these teachings myself and found them to be consistent and true, that I haven't swallowed them part and parcel from the battering ram of someone else, that you do not look at me without disdain? Without contempt? As anything but a man who can "think for himself?" That you do not look at me as a servile sheep? It sounds disengenuous for you to say that you don't see me and so many others that way based on your posts. You may not have been addressing me personally, as you said, when you wrote about "you christians..." but, you certainly do seem to have unjunstly generalized to "all christians" (except of course, those you say you are close to). I don't think that generalization is fair or deserving. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #242 June 12, 2003 perhaps not, but i base my generalizations on my experience of christianity & christians, and i've met far more hypocrites and church lady types than i have true believers, those who have questioned and evaluated their faith, and come back to a core belief...most of those who have will freely admit that there is quite a bit of the 'word of man' written into what is touted as the 'word of god' and that makes a great deal of the dogma suspect even if there are universal truths contained there as well. Spirituality is one thing, religion is primarily a means of social control if you want to start another thread we can certainly discuss the contradictions inherent in christianity & catholicism (and its sources even your fundamental myth..ie the resurrection theme appears elsewhere first, and far earlier as well..) try not to take offence at the word myth. it applies to all beliefs but yes, if you try to tell me that every word, every sentence of the book you call bible is true, the divinely inspired word of god uninterrupted by man and the culture it came thru, then i will file you as gullible sheep. i dont think your saying that, but it is VERY difficult for most christians to accept that the will of man has a great deal to do with how their religion evolved..or accept that the "word" of god might be present in EVERYTHING and therefore offers alternate routes to divinity, than the one they have chosen. its part of the 'belonging' need of humans, the desire to feel and say "we are better than they are.."____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #243 June 12, 2003 Quotereligion is primarily a means of social control Incorrect. It HAS been used that way, but it isn't ALWAYS that way. It's a shame it has been used that way, b/c now so many view religion w/ contempt. It's fundamental purpose is not about control. I take no offense to the word myth. However, I believe that some of the Christian "myths" aren't that at all. Quote it is VERY difficult for most christians to accept that the will of man has a great deal to do with how their religion evolved..or accept that the word of god might be present in EVERYTHING and therefore offers alternate routes to divinity. It is very difficult for a lot of Christians to accept that, b/c even though the will of men (better said, the corrupt motivations of some, even many, men) have affected Christianity, such men have not destroyed Christianity. Nor have they fundamentally altered it's central truths. Are their tenets of Christianity that are disputed? Sure... Catholicism has never held any belief in the rapture. The texts that seemingly refer to the rapture, according to Catholic exegesis were misinterpreted by some Protestants. Is that a necessary, essential truth to Christianity? No. Hell no. It in no way changes or alters the salvific mission of Christ. Quotets part of the 'belonging' need of humans, the desire to feel and say "we are better than they are.." How very Marxist you are in saying that. Religion is not the opiate of the masses. Your assertion hardly makes your theology original. It simply means you are a different sort of sheep. But a sheep all the same. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #244 June 12, 2003 Quotetry not to take offence at the word myth. it applies to all beliefs I know you are referring to "religious" beliefs or beliefs about God. But why is it such a so far gone conclusion for you to possibly concede that, if there were a God, that such a being would want to reveal Himself? And reveal Himself in a way that can be infallibly perceived/received by mankind? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #245 June 12, 2003 i believe he does, i will argue even more vehemently with atheists who say he doesnt, what i do not believe is the dogma that says "THIS and only THIS way will i reveal myself to you"..when direct experience tells me otherwise.. touch her hand everytime you leave the plane, feel his breath in the wind off the ocean, hear the throb of her heart as you plunge beneath the waves...the message, the word (and far more than any single religions version of it) is out there...it simply requires you to look, without blinders, of ANY nature...it is SOOOO easy, open your eyes and breath....and yet every major religion puts up theological barriers to the direct experience of divinity..hoops you need to jump thru before god will speak to you..a means of controlling how you think and believe.. QuoteHow very Marxist you are in saying that. Religion is not the opiate of the masses. Your assertion hardly makes your theology original. It simply means you are a different sort of sheep. But a sheep all the same. marx was right in this reguard, television has suplanted it as the opiate of choice in the modern world not sure where or why you think this is part of my 'theology' this is simple social observation...do you go to church??? why? why do you think most people go?? have you asked??met any baptists? methodists? in some demominations the social ascpects are very obvious..and very much the means by which they keep their sheep interested and attending....(and yes STILL) uses them as a means of control, a way to pass culture and mores from one generation to the next, a way of passing those same mores on to other cultures you veiw as heathen, these are all forms of social control..and can be observed right now...go turn on your TV to any televanglist...and see how the sheep are led by the modern church, the only difference is we live in a country, an age where the church is no longer allowed to press its beliefs on others by force, but you can see from the rethoric it still wishes it could..it has just become more subtle, and must use marketing now instead of violence..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #246 June 12, 2003 are you a panthiest? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #247 June 12, 2003 i'm not an 'ist' anything. name aside trying to box the infinite into tangible human words is exactly how religions begin and fail..god is by nessesity indefinable..to attempt to do so only exposes the limits of human thought... far better to experience than to attempt to break it down into small easily digestible bits...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #248 June 12, 2003 Quotetouch her hand everytime you leave the plane, feel his breath in the wind off the ocean, hear the throb of her heart as you plunge beneath the waves we actually may (partially) agree on something here! I do indeed experience God in His creation. His signature, so to speak, is in fact everywhere. But I do not confuse the creation from the Creator. They are not the same. Nor are they completely mutually exclusive. The wind is not God, but it sure can teach us something about God. It and He are invisible, yet can be very powerful and also can be soft and gentle. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #249 June 12, 2003 There are many christians who think critically, some who go to church because it's social -- it fulfills a need they perceive. Why do you go to the dropzone? The problem is that most of the religious folks who think critically are too busy watching and listening to the world to preach at folks who are clearly uninterested, or even actively uninterested. There's a very fine line between agnosticism and theism sometimes, and there are atheists who go to church because they appreciate the opportunity to reflect with others. When one chooses to believe in something (or not to believe in something, or to disbelieve it), there's always the opportunity to evaluate new information. Just because some people think the word "christian" only applies to people just like them doesn't make it true. I might choose to apply that word to myself -- but when have you heard me preach to others (well, other than objecting to French jokes ) I like standing for things rather than against them. I don't get to lean that way, but it's much stronger, and I don't care nearly as much about props being taken away, because I'm not as dependent on the beliefs. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #250 June 12, 2003 Quote But I do not confuse the creation from the Creator. They are not the same. Nor are they completely mutually exclusive. The wind is not God see here your already starting to get into christian thelology..that which holds that God is sperate and aloof from his creation, that we need an intermediary to reach her...this intermediary was once the priests, then evolved into christ, but i never understood why anyone would find such 'middle men' necessary or desirable.. the only reasoning i can find is that of control..."god says do this" they never have been for me, why would i pretend they were...and yes if you were wondering, my mother was asked not to bring me to sunday school anymore..i confused to many of the other kids who were oblivious to the 'jesus loves me' cult being poured in their ears by well meaning adults..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
