sinker 0 #301 June 13, 2003 sorry, I read it but haven't had the time to address it... other posts jumped at me a little more... I'll re-read, address, etc. But I'm on the road, away from my home office and am sneaking these posts from my company's central office instead of working on file audits. I know, I know, what a hypocrite!!! -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #302 June 13, 2003 No problem. It isn't nearly as instigating or tempting for rebuttal as Zenister's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #303 June 13, 2003 Well...at the beginning of the universe there were at least 10 dimenstion of space. 3 of those formed the space time continuum that we observer. In order for got to have created the universe (and according to the bible) he must live outside the universe. Meaning outside the 10 dimensions or more that existed at the creation let alone the 3 that comprise our observal space/time continuum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FliegendeWolf 0 #304 June 13, 2003 Why 10 dimensions?A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #305 June 13, 2003 QuoteWhy 10 dimensions? Ask Stephen Hawking. I sure as hell can't explain it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #306 June 13, 2003 QuoteWhy 10 dimensions? Because Petr Horava and Ed Witten said so based on super string theory. http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/npr/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #307 June 13, 2003 but without an observer (god cant count since he's outside the system) how does time pass? isnt time actually a measurement of consciousness? (not just human)____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FliegendeWolf 0 #308 June 13, 2003 I see. No really, I do. A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #309 June 13, 2003 Sorry man, I really do want to reply more than I can, but here's a little... as for your 6 points of similarities among religions... 1. Social interaction w/ like-minded people... true, to a point. In my religious tradition, the central activity is Mass. Mass is, in essence exactly the same world wide. Part of the reason why "Catholic" means universal. But, each culture brings it's own flavor to the mass. Not different beliefs about who God is and all that. Experiencing mass in other cultures is extremely edifying, such as in Africa or Japan or...it is incredibly diverse. But interacting w/ other Catholics doesn't always mean they are like-minded. They may agree on the tenets of the faith but have completely different approaches to it. They are hardly automatons. Thomas Merton was very different from Thomas Acquinas who was very different from Francis of Assisi. 2. Answers to difficult questions... yep, where answers can be given anyway. But some don't have answers we can discern. 3. Prepackaged set of morals. Same as just about any organization or institution. Perhaps different motivations sometimes, but... for some this is a turn off. However, I have yet to find someone for whom this is not attractive who doesn't have their own internal values or set of morals they live by. 4. infrastructure for communal worship... no argument there 5. historical ident... VERY important in the Catholic mindset, the idea of an unbroken timeline of God's creation, man's fall, and the story of man and God recommuning, that it is all one big living story. 6. afterlife... hard for me to imagine there isn't one. Quote Is there a difference between hanging out with fellow skydivers and with people in your religion? For Catholics, a very big difference. In Mass, it is believed/taught that during the Mass, through the actions of the priest who acts in persona Christi, in the person of Christ, God once again bridges the gap b/t Him and mankind. For the Catholic, there is no more sacred time than during Mass. so much mor to say, so little time.... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #310 June 13, 2003 the sun rises and sets every day whether I am conscious of it or not. if I'm unconscious, time still passes. My perception of that time may be radically altered, but the process of motion in time is objective, the experience is subjective -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #311 June 13, 2003 Quotebut without an observer (god cant count since he's outside the system) how does time pass? isnt time actually a measurement of consciousness? (not just human) No...time is the measurement of transitional states of energy and is wholly dependent on the position of the observer. Two atomic clocks at radically different heights will eventually go out of synch because of the effect of gravity on the measurement of time. Consciousness is one type of energy that we use to measure time, but there could be other forms of energy that see the passage of time in a wholly different way (and in a different dimension, or even extradimensionally) that we're not aware of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #312 June 13, 2003 QuoteNo...time is the measurement of transitional states of energy and is wholly dependent on the position of the observer. I'd say that time is relative to the position of the observer, where one exists, but that time itself exists whether an observer does or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #313 June 13, 2003 QuoteQuoteNo...time is the measurement of transitional states of energy and is wholly dependent on the position of the observer. I'd say that time is relative to the position of the observer, where one exists, but that time itself exists whether an observer does or not. Time is defined as a measurement based on a frame of reference. Therefore, without a frame of reference (e.g. observer) time does not exist. It is a measurement Not a substance or type of energy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Iflyme 0 #314 June 13, 2003 QuoteThat is good...but people here that take offence to this thread ..don't if you are secure in your feelings and beliefs While I may not share the beliefs of some others here, I certainly will defend their right to express them. Just as I have every right to express mine. I am an atheist, but I enjoy reading some of the elaborate justifications people use to uphold their beliefs in a "God". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #315 June 13, 2003 In other words...all things happen simultaneously at different locations along the time dimension. It is our perception of that dimension that defines our understanding of time. For us to comprehend it, we must process it in a linear manner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #316 June 13, 2003 QuoteTime is defined as a measurement based on a frame of reference. Therefore, without a frame of reference (e.g. observer) time does not exist. It is a measurement Not a substance or type of energy. Kinda, sorta. Time is a measurement, not a substance or type of energy. Agreed. So is distance. But the sun would still be the same distance 93M miles, whether anyone was alive to know it or not. If humans were all instantly annhilated, the earth would still travel the rotational path around the sun. The time it takes would still be the same, relative to the positions of the sun and earth. There are two ways to look at the "tree falls and nobody hears it, does it make a sound" issue, scientifically, or philisophically. I'm not going to address the philisophical one, but the scientific answer is yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #317 June 13, 2003 QuoteThe time it takes would still be the same, relative to the positions of the sun and earth. Time as we define based on how our brains process the time dimension. But time is not linear by design, it is our interpretation of it that makes it linear. That was shown by Einstein's theory of relativity (which is a lot more than E=MCsq. How do you know that another life form couldn't have a wholly different way in which its brain works and observes the time dimension. It could exist for an instant and see and experience all things in that instant at different locations along the time axis. And this is partly true QuoteThe time it takes would still be the same, relative to the positions of the sun and earth. From an equivalent observable point it would be the same. But if you were observing the rotation of the earth around the sun from, say, the edge of a black hole...it's gonna take a whole lot longer based on your perception because of the effect of gravity. It's all based on the observer. For instance I can look up in the sky and see stars that haven't existed for millions of years. Why? Because their light is just now reaching my eyes. I'm observing something that no longer exists. I could observe tonight a star going supernova that went supernova millions of years ago. That event is happening now to me, but happened millions of years ago to the inhabitants of nearby planets that were wiped out by it. Ok..this is all coming back to me now....also you're example of the distance between the earth and sun also depends on the observer. As an object accelerates past an observer its physical length is contracted. You could theoretically take a 500m board and accelerate it past me such that I would measure its length as 50m. If you are observing the earth and sun from a space craft accelerating through the solar system, or you are stationary and the solar system is accelarating past you, you would measure the distance between the two differently than someone on earth would, even if you used the same ruler. And remember, all of this is based on the princples of this universe and its existing 3 dimensions. What are the rules for extradimensional beings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Iflyme 0 #318 June 13, 2003 QuoteGod, please bless those that aren't saved anyways. I ask that you give them THEIR proof the same ways you have given me mine. I love you father. Thank you for this day, my health, the new job I am about to get, my beautiful wife, the roof over my head, my families health. I ask that you watch over my fellow skydivers and help them return to their loved ones jump after jump. Save your breath, Rhino. You are entitled to your beliefs, but don't drag the rest of us into them. Pray for yourself. Not me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Schroeder 0 #319 June 13, 2003 Michio Kaku! No I didn't just sneeze. Anyone read Hyperspace? Good stuff. I read it when I was 15, and every once and a while since then... He's an amazing speaker too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #320 June 13, 2003 QuoteTime as we define based on how our brains process the time dimension. But time is not linear by design, it is our interpretation of it that makes it linear. I don't think time is altered by our perception of it. I agree that the perception is based on lots of different things. Position, velocity, brain type, etc. It is appears different in freefall than it is on the ground, or awake versus asleep. But those are merely our perception of time, not time itself. A blind person's perception of color is different than a seeing person's, which is different still from an insect's multifacted eyes or an owl's better night vision, etc. If color is the spectrum of wavelengths, it isn't changed by whatever subset of it or intepretation of it a being has. QuoteIt's all based on the observer. For instance I can look up in the sky and see stars that haven't existed for millions of years. Why? Because their light is just now reaching my eyes. I'm observing something that no longer exists. I could observe tonight a star going supernova that went supernova millions of years ago. That event is happening now to me, but happened millions of years ago to the inhabitants of nearby planets that were wiped out by it. I would say time is based on "observation point", rather than on "observer". Fine distinction, but one worthy of making. I understand exactly what you are saying about seeing events in the past, based on the speed of light. The same event, your supernova, would have happened at a time, relative to being close to its location, and long ago, relative to being far away, whether there were people, or aliens there to notice the difference or not. QuoteAnd remember, all of this is based on the princples of this universe and its existing 3 dimensions. What are the rules for extradimensional beings? Extradimensional beings would perceive time in a totally different way. But that is still perception, not a change in the time dimension itself. It is like a million people looking at a painting. They all see it different ways, but the painting is the same. It would be the same if there was nobody there to see it. I'm agreeing with everything your saying about location, velocity, time dilation, etc., except the assertion that people have to be there for it to exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gary350 0 #321 June 15, 2003 QuoteJust wanted to thank God publicly for all the great things happening in my life and all the great things to come. Thank you God Rob Wow - imaginary friends are great, but I gave them up when I was a child. . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RuthCanal 0 #322 July 18, 2003 We all have different cultural norms. For example, in NZ a man with a sheep under one arm and a goat under the other is termed 'bisexual." But in Canada he is termed "Lucky" and in the USA Bible Belt he is known as "Hell Bent for Leather." Personally, my research on the subject reveals that God is actually defined in the Chrisitan Gospels. According to Jesus, who's word is supposedly authorative, "God is Love." Hence, the question is not one of beliefe in doctinre, but rather one of manifesting love. If it is love, it is God. If it is not love, it is not God. But we must diferentiate between lust for sheep and love of animals; etc. Love is always an attraction based on qualities and attributes. Let us not be sheepish about love. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SadSue 0 #323 July 18, 2003 LMFAOOOOOOO I have never loved sheep and I definatley dont eat them. Ever been to the Folsom st fair in SF Ruth????? It might be a good place to do some more research lol http://www.folsomstreetfair.com/ Hope you don't get Banned! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RuthCanal 0 #324 July 18, 2003 QuoteLMFAOOOOOOO I have never loved sheep and I definatley dont eat them. Sue: you aint seen nuthin till your down on a mutton. Dentist? Well, as i recall you always were orally inclined. Sad Sue, requesting Novacain, said "Doc, i want to feel no pain." He replied "When i drill, you'll find it a thrill, besides you're mildly insane" PS: Thanks for the great time in SF. I never knew a woman could do so many handy things with Crisco Brand shortning -- you should certainly share your tips with Hints from Heloise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SadSue 0 #325 July 18, 2003 Pleasure was all mine..... I'm such a grand tour guide! Hope you don't get Banned! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Next Page 13 of 14 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
PhillyKev 0 #303 June 13, 2003 Well...at the beginning of the universe there were at least 10 dimenstion of space. 3 of those formed the space time continuum that we observer. In order for got to have created the universe (and according to the bible) he must live outside the universe. Meaning outside the 10 dimensions or more that existed at the creation let alone the 3 that comprise our observal space/time continuum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #304 June 13, 2003 Why 10 dimensions?A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #305 June 13, 2003 QuoteWhy 10 dimensions? Ask Stephen Hawking. I sure as hell can't explain it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #306 June 13, 2003 QuoteWhy 10 dimensions? Because Petr Horava and Ed Witten said so based on super string theory. http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/npr/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #307 June 13, 2003 but without an observer (god cant count since he's outside the system) how does time pass? isnt time actually a measurement of consciousness? (not just human)____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #308 June 13, 2003 I see. No really, I do. A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #309 June 13, 2003 Sorry man, I really do want to reply more than I can, but here's a little... as for your 6 points of similarities among religions... 1. Social interaction w/ like-minded people... true, to a point. In my religious tradition, the central activity is Mass. Mass is, in essence exactly the same world wide. Part of the reason why "Catholic" means universal. But, each culture brings it's own flavor to the mass. Not different beliefs about who God is and all that. Experiencing mass in other cultures is extremely edifying, such as in Africa or Japan or...it is incredibly diverse. But interacting w/ other Catholics doesn't always mean they are like-minded. They may agree on the tenets of the faith but have completely different approaches to it. They are hardly automatons. Thomas Merton was very different from Thomas Acquinas who was very different from Francis of Assisi. 2. Answers to difficult questions... yep, where answers can be given anyway. But some don't have answers we can discern. 3. Prepackaged set of morals. Same as just about any organization or institution. Perhaps different motivations sometimes, but... for some this is a turn off. However, I have yet to find someone for whom this is not attractive who doesn't have their own internal values or set of morals they live by. 4. infrastructure for communal worship... no argument there 5. historical ident... VERY important in the Catholic mindset, the idea of an unbroken timeline of God's creation, man's fall, and the story of man and God recommuning, that it is all one big living story. 6. afterlife... hard for me to imagine there isn't one. Quote Is there a difference between hanging out with fellow skydivers and with people in your religion? For Catholics, a very big difference. In Mass, it is believed/taught that during the Mass, through the actions of the priest who acts in persona Christi, in the person of Christ, God once again bridges the gap b/t Him and mankind. For the Catholic, there is no more sacred time than during Mass. so much mor to say, so little time.... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #310 June 13, 2003 the sun rises and sets every day whether I am conscious of it or not. if I'm unconscious, time still passes. My perception of that time may be radically altered, but the process of motion in time is objective, the experience is subjective -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #311 June 13, 2003 Quotebut without an observer (god cant count since he's outside the system) how does time pass? isnt time actually a measurement of consciousness? (not just human) No...time is the measurement of transitional states of energy and is wholly dependent on the position of the observer. Two atomic clocks at radically different heights will eventually go out of synch because of the effect of gravity on the measurement of time. Consciousness is one type of energy that we use to measure time, but there could be other forms of energy that see the passage of time in a wholly different way (and in a different dimension, or even extradimensionally) that we're not aware of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #312 June 13, 2003 QuoteNo...time is the measurement of transitional states of energy and is wholly dependent on the position of the observer. I'd say that time is relative to the position of the observer, where one exists, but that time itself exists whether an observer does or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #313 June 13, 2003 QuoteQuoteNo...time is the measurement of transitional states of energy and is wholly dependent on the position of the observer. I'd say that time is relative to the position of the observer, where one exists, but that time itself exists whether an observer does or not. Time is defined as a measurement based on a frame of reference. Therefore, without a frame of reference (e.g. observer) time does not exist. It is a measurement Not a substance or type of energy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #314 June 13, 2003 QuoteThat is good...but people here that take offence to this thread ..don't if you are secure in your feelings and beliefs While I may not share the beliefs of some others here, I certainly will defend their right to express them. Just as I have every right to express mine. I am an atheist, but I enjoy reading some of the elaborate justifications people use to uphold their beliefs in a "God". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #315 June 13, 2003 In other words...all things happen simultaneously at different locations along the time dimension. It is our perception of that dimension that defines our understanding of time. For us to comprehend it, we must process it in a linear manner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #316 June 13, 2003 QuoteTime is defined as a measurement based on a frame of reference. Therefore, without a frame of reference (e.g. observer) time does not exist. It is a measurement Not a substance or type of energy. Kinda, sorta. Time is a measurement, not a substance or type of energy. Agreed. So is distance. But the sun would still be the same distance 93M miles, whether anyone was alive to know it or not. If humans were all instantly annhilated, the earth would still travel the rotational path around the sun. The time it takes would still be the same, relative to the positions of the sun and earth. There are two ways to look at the "tree falls and nobody hears it, does it make a sound" issue, scientifically, or philisophically. I'm not going to address the philisophical one, but the scientific answer is yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #317 June 13, 2003 QuoteThe time it takes would still be the same, relative to the positions of the sun and earth. Time as we define based on how our brains process the time dimension. But time is not linear by design, it is our interpretation of it that makes it linear. That was shown by Einstein's theory of relativity (which is a lot more than E=MCsq. How do you know that another life form couldn't have a wholly different way in which its brain works and observes the time dimension. It could exist for an instant and see and experience all things in that instant at different locations along the time axis. And this is partly true QuoteThe time it takes would still be the same, relative to the positions of the sun and earth. From an equivalent observable point it would be the same. But if you were observing the rotation of the earth around the sun from, say, the edge of a black hole...it's gonna take a whole lot longer based on your perception because of the effect of gravity. It's all based on the observer. For instance I can look up in the sky and see stars that haven't existed for millions of years. Why? Because their light is just now reaching my eyes. I'm observing something that no longer exists. I could observe tonight a star going supernova that went supernova millions of years ago. That event is happening now to me, but happened millions of years ago to the inhabitants of nearby planets that were wiped out by it. Ok..this is all coming back to me now....also you're example of the distance between the earth and sun also depends on the observer. As an object accelerates past an observer its physical length is contracted. You could theoretically take a 500m board and accelerate it past me such that I would measure its length as 50m. If you are observing the earth and sun from a space craft accelerating through the solar system, or you are stationary and the solar system is accelarating past you, you would measure the distance between the two differently than someone on earth would, even if you used the same ruler. And remember, all of this is based on the princples of this universe and its existing 3 dimensions. What are the rules for extradimensional beings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #318 June 13, 2003 QuoteGod, please bless those that aren't saved anyways. I ask that you give them THEIR proof the same ways you have given me mine. I love you father. Thank you for this day, my health, the new job I am about to get, my beautiful wife, the roof over my head, my families health. I ask that you watch over my fellow skydivers and help them return to their loved ones jump after jump. Save your breath, Rhino. You are entitled to your beliefs, but don't drag the rest of us into them. Pray for yourself. Not me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #319 June 13, 2003 Michio Kaku! No I didn't just sneeze. Anyone read Hyperspace? Good stuff. I read it when I was 15, and every once and a while since then... He's an amazing speaker too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #320 June 13, 2003 QuoteTime as we define based on how our brains process the time dimension. But time is not linear by design, it is our interpretation of it that makes it linear. I don't think time is altered by our perception of it. I agree that the perception is based on lots of different things. Position, velocity, brain type, etc. It is appears different in freefall than it is on the ground, or awake versus asleep. But those are merely our perception of time, not time itself. A blind person's perception of color is different than a seeing person's, which is different still from an insect's multifacted eyes or an owl's better night vision, etc. If color is the spectrum of wavelengths, it isn't changed by whatever subset of it or intepretation of it a being has. QuoteIt's all based on the observer. For instance I can look up in the sky and see stars that haven't existed for millions of years. Why? Because their light is just now reaching my eyes. I'm observing something that no longer exists. I could observe tonight a star going supernova that went supernova millions of years ago. That event is happening now to me, but happened millions of years ago to the inhabitants of nearby planets that were wiped out by it. I would say time is based on "observation point", rather than on "observer". Fine distinction, but one worthy of making. I understand exactly what you are saying about seeing events in the past, based on the speed of light. The same event, your supernova, would have happened at a time, relative to being close to its location, and long ago, relative to being far away, whether there were people, or aliens there to notice the difference or not. QuoteAnd remember, all of this is based on the princples of this universe and its existing 3 dimensions. What are the rules for extradimensional beings? Extradimensional beings would perceive time in a totally different way. But that is still perception, not a change in the time dimension itself. It is like a million people looking at a painting. They all see it different ways, but the painting is the same. It would be the same if there was nobody there to see it. I'm agreeing with everything your saying about location, velocity, time dilation, etc., except the assertion that people have to be there for it to exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #321 June 15, 2003 QuoteJust wanted to thank God publicly for all the great things happening in my life and all the great things to come. Thank you God Rob Wow - imaginary friends are great, but I gave them up when I was a child. . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RuthCanal 0 #322 July 18, 2003 We all have different cultural norms. For example, in NZ a man with a sheep under one arm and a goat under the other is termed 'bisexual." But in Canada he is termed "Lucky" and in the USA Bible Belt he is known as "Hell Bent for Leather." Personally, my research on the subject reveals that God is actually defined in the Chrisitan Gospels. According to Jesus, who's word is supposedly authorative, "God is Love." Hence, the question is not one of beliefe in doctinre, but rather one of manifesting love. If it is love, it is God. If it is not love, it is not God. But we must diferentiate between lust for sheep and love of animals; etc. Love is always an attraction based on qualities and attributes. Let us not be sheepish about love. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SadSue 0 #323 July 18, 2003 LMFAOOOOOOO I have never loved sheep and I definatley dont eat them. Ever been to the Folsom st fair in SF Ruth????? It might be a good place to do some more research lol http://www.folsomstreetfair.com/ Hope you don't get Banned! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RuthCanal 0 #324 July 18, 2003 QuoteLMFAOOOOOOO I have never loved sheep and I definatley dont eat them. Sue: you aint seen nuthin till your down on a mutton. Dentist? Well, as i recall you always were orally inclined. Sad Sue, requesting Novacain, said "Doc, i want to feel no pain." He replied "When i drill, you'll find it a thrill, besides you're mildly insane" PS: Thanks for the great time in SF. I never knew a woman could do so many handy things with Crisco Brand shortning -- you should certainly share your tips with Hints from Heloise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SadSue 0 #325 July 18, 2003 Pleasure was all mine..... I'm such a grand tour guide! Hope you don't get Banned! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Next Page 13 of 14 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
SadSue 0 #325 July 18, 2003 Pleasure was all mine..... I'm such a grand tour guide! Hope you don't get Banned! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
