Recently heard at the DZ

[johnboy 0]

So there is this jumper, whom I will call yahoo for this discussion, at our DZ who started packing tandem rigs for a while. Usually the TI has been doing all the packing, as he is also a (damn good) master rigger and rather finicky about his pack jobs (makes good sense to me), but yahoo wants to train as a rigger and would like the bucks for packing anyway. I like jumping camera with TI because he and his rigging are like absolute clockwork. I've yet to see one of his pack jobs open anywhere other than absolutely straight on heading and I've never once been below 3000 feet on opening because of him going low.

With yahoo packing rigs a few weekends ago, this same TI had a lineover on end of the canopy (that cleared itself quickly), and two openings with linetwists so bad, he admitted to having hands on handles ready for a cutaway while waiting long enough to see if the french links were going to end up around the same level or so. He was able to get out of the line twists both times, but he was rather pissed about three ugly openings in one day. Particularly with tandem passengers strapped to him.

At the end of the day, yahoo starts trying to train another guy on packing tandem canopies as the TI and DZO are watching. As yahoo is throwing the canopy around like a dog with a brand new rope toy, DZO asks TI, "are you going to let him keep packing these balls of shit for you?" Yahoo's response is, "I don't care really; I'm not the one who will be jumping it anyway." I might tease somebody with this line, but yahoo was serious.

I doubt we will see yahoo for a while as he is no longer allowed to pack tandem (or student) rigs and is also banned from any further rigger's training at our DZ. Granted yahoo now has more jumps in a shorter period of time than I've collected over the years, he doesn't have kids to feed and has more time than me to jump anyway. My point is I will never be convinced that jump numbers alone will make a better skydiver.

When I found out yahoo had touched my reserve on the repack that saved my life earlier this summer, I got pissed enough to tell TI and DZO that if that happens again, I will absolutely have to take my business elsewhere. I seriously hope yahoo gets his rectal cranial inversion reversed as he's very talented in the sky, but I find his immaturity on the ground disturbing and I just hope someone doesn't get dead because of it.

Okay. Rant over. Thanks for listening as this has been bothering me for a while now.

[freefalle 0]

We had a kid like that packing at a DZ where I used to do tandem, packed me two malfunctions in two days, the second one being a bag lock. We fired him too, I wonder if you inherited a problem.....

[DSE 5]

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Granted yahoo now has more jumps in a shorter period of time than I've collected over the years, he doesn't have kids to feed and has more time than me to jump anyway. My point is I will never be convinced that jump numbers alone will make a better skydiver.

Agreeing with your post, this one paragraph doesn't fit into everything else you wrote. I feel you're right, jump numbers alone do not make a better skydiver. But if he's jumping with other people, he probably is a better skydiver.

If being a bad tandem packer makes him a lesser skydiver, then I'm a terrible skydiver, because I've only packed tandems as part of a training class. But I have packed easy a couple thousand sport packjobs.
Is there more to the story that what you've written?

[Baksteen 84]

DSE, it's not about the ability to pack tandems, it's about how you approach doing it.
What makes "Yahoo" a terrible skydiver, regardless of his other skills, is this little sentence:

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Yahoo's response is, "I don't care really; I'm not the one who will be jumping it anyway."

If you'd not be happy jumping a packjob, just what the hell are you doing sending other people up with it?

I mean, you say you cannot pack tandems? Point is, you know this, and you're not doing it.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[johnboy 0]

I'm not sure how to answer you DSE. There really isn't much else to add to the story other than it concerns me his attitude toward others who will jumping equipment he's touching, or, actually, his attitude. I've no problem saying he's a better skydiver than me because of freefall skills, but aren't we parachutists first?

According to the defenition I unintentionally laid out, even though I probably have 1500 sport and student pack jobs, I too would be considered a terrible skydiver since I've yet to pack a tandem rig. But that's also a liability I don't want to take on until TI (who does all my rigging, too, btw) and I spend a lot of time working together on packing tandems. I'm sure I will figure it out as there aren't massively huge differences in the packing and I'm confident I'm not an idiot, but still...

But again, its his lack of maturity that disturbs me. I've not jumped with him in well over a year because of it and I am %100 sure I don't want him touching my gear. Maybe it's the skygod thing that's really bothering me here.

[DSE 5]

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DSE, it's not about the ability to pack tandems, it's about how you approach doing it.
What makes "Yahoo" a terrible skydiver, regardless of his other skills, is this little sentence:

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Yahoo's response is, "I don't care really; I'm not the one who will be jumping it anyway."

Baksteen, were you there? Did you hear this sentence in context? I didn't. My point overall is twofold.
~I didn't hear the comment, and based on the way the post is written, it may not be in context.

~it seems there may or may not be a personal issue. The multiple subject points of the OP make it seem so, rightfully or wrongfully.

All DZ's have asshats. I'm sure some think I'm one of them. Others don't. It's not for me (nor you) to judge whether "Yahoo" is a terrible skydiver or not. He may or may not be just an asshat who made a stupid comment in or out of context.

On the other side of the coin, if this guy truly said this in the presented context, and has demonstrated this sort of attitude (outside of this one incident) then the DZO or DZM should likely be proactive and remove him from the DZ.

[Baksteen 84]

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Baksteen, were you there? Did you hear this sentence in context? I didn't. My point overall is twofold.
~I didn't hear the comment, and based on the way the post is written, it may not be in context.

~it seems there may or may not be a personal issue. The multiple subject points of the OP make it seem so, rightfully or wrongfully.

All DZ's have asshats. I'm sure some think I'm one of them. Others don't. It's not for me (nor you) to judge whether "Yahoo" is a terrible skydiver or not. He may or may not be just an asshat who made a stupid comment in or out of context.

On the other side of the coin, if this guy truly said this in the presented context, and has demonstrated this sort of attitude (outside of this one incident) then the DZO or DZM should likely be proactive and remove him from the DZ.

Upon reading it again, my post seems a little harsher than I intended. My apologies for that, it wasn't meant to be directed at you.

You're absolutely right, i wasn't there, and don't know OP nor Yahoo nor context neither.
My blood just boils when i consider that some people out there actually DO think like that.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[faulknerwn 38]

See the attitude that someone else is jumping it makes me MORE careful with the packjob. I'm way more slack with my own pack jobs than I ever am with anyone elses. I know that a hell of a lot more can go wrong on tandems than on a solo jump, and I'm more careful not less for that reason.

My rigs? Hell, I've had plenty of reserve rides - I can't begin to count how many packjobs I've let people who are learning to pack and want to practice do for me. I've had unstowed brakes, line twists out to wazoo, and you name it, but nothing requiring a cutaway cuz I know my gear. I'll jump beginner's packjobs before I let them jump their own :-)

[hackish 8]

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When I found out yahoo had touched my reserve on the repack that saved my life earlier this summer, I got pissed enough to tell TI and DZO that if that happens again, I will absolutely have to take my business elsewhere.

The rigger is the one who certifies the packjob and the equipment. If the yahoo did a supervised pack and the rigger whom you trust and find to be very particular supervised it then I would suggest it should have been done as well as if he had done it himself or it wouldn't have been sealed and delivered to you.

-Michael

[popsjumper 2]

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...If being a bad tandem packer makes him a lesser skydiver, then...

I read the OP as implying that there's more to being a good skydiver than simple air skills...and I totally agree with that. I read it as looking at the entire package...the big picture...not just simply a snapshot of one aspect.

What surprises me is that the TI, being a rigger, apparently did not supervise the pack jobs and continued to jump them even after experiencing problems with it in the first place.

Sounds like the DZO has his head screwed on straight.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DSE 5]

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What surprises me is that the TI, being a rigger, apparently did not supervise the pack jobs and continued to jump them even after experiencing problems with it in the first place.
.

Which is why I wondered aloud if there is more to the story from the OP....

[marks2065 0]

it sounds to me that yahoo aproaches his skydiving as he does his packing , if this is the case then he needs an attitude adjustment - this is serious stuff - i know people like yahoo and think they need to be sat down and talked to - there are people i won't jump with because they don't listen to things that are safety related or just don't care that 20 other people paid good money for a jump and they screwed it up and there answer when confronted is owell - i really perfer jumping with people with less skills and more focus on learning and safety

[Feeblemind 1]

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With yahoo packing rigs a few weekends ago, this same TI had a lineover on end of the canopy (that cleared itself quickly), and two openings with linetwists so bad, he admitted to having hands on handles ready for a cutaway while waiting long enough to see if the french links were going to end up around the same level or so. He was able to get out of the line twists both times, but he was rather pissed about three ugly openings in one day. Particularly with tandem passengers strapped to him.

At the end of the day, yahoo starts trying to train another guy on packing tandem canopies as the TI and DZO are watching. As yahoo is throwing the canopy around like a dog with a brand new rope toy, DZO asks TI, "are you going to let him keep packing these balls of shit for you?" Yahoo's response is, "I don't care really; I'm not the one who will be jumping it anyway." I might tease somebody with this line, but yahoo was serious.

I would think when the Yahoo was done packing the rig it would have been intresting for the DZO to tell Yahoo to put on a student harness, when he asked "why?" That rig you just packed, your gonna ride as a passenger!!

Maybe then he would have a little more respect for the TI's, students and the DZO.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[johnboy 0]

" In Reply To
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What surprises me is that the TI, being a rigger, apparently did not supervise the pack jobs and continued to jump them even after experiencing problems with it in the first place.
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Which is why I wondered aloud if there is more to the story from the OP.... "


Now I get what you were going for, DSE. Sorry for not picking up on your inquiry sooner.

Yahoo had been observed on his tandem packing a few weeks before the weekend in concern. This was the first weekend he had been packing unobserved. In my estimation, since he was now "experienced" (ahem, cough, cough) at packing tandems, he figured he could go faster than when he was originally being observed. Hence the ball of shit pack jobs he gave TI.

To comment on something you mentioned earlier, DSE, yahoo figures me the asshat at the DZ. Long story short, he figures somehow that I stole his video last year, even though I was editing video he shot using a borrowed camera (he didn't own one at the time), with lots of 10 second clips leading up to the jumps, none of which include any verbal interaction with said subjects, most of which don't include video of said subjects' landings, and with his nice big thumbprint in the middle of the lens. Since I gave myself some credit for editing at the end of the video (editing takes a long time when you have to create something out of nothing) in addition to crediting him for the camera flying, I am now somehow the asshat and a video thief to boot.

So yes, he and I do have some personal issues, but quite frankly I don't have enough time in a day to worry about it. I care far more about what's right than who's right, and I'm quite certain he is not right in his attitude toward others in this sport.

If I am truly in the wrong, I offer my apologies. but I'm pretty sure I don't have anything to apologize for.

[2shay 0]

sadly this kind of stuff happens way too often and nobody does anything about it, and typically the dz claims to be the best around that only lets certified riggers pack their tandems. What would the customer think if a guy like yahoo was packing? They may not go. I have seen TI's lie about never packing a malfunction, when obviously they themselves had actually had and packed that mal. Funny how good ole' business has went out the window.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!