Zenister 0 #101 July 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteThey live YEARS longer (that says a lot!) ------------------------------------------------- Think about this for a second what percentage of vegitarians are women? I am not sure off hand but I believe the life expectency for women is at least 10 years more than men. Yes, the studies control for sex. Put more simply, female vegetarians live longer than female non-vegetarians. Male vegetarians live longer than male non-vegetarians. did they control for otherwise healthy life styles? did they ensure the groups as an average were equally health conscious otherwise? not likely. no study i've ever seen has..i'd be interested if you have one that does.. vegetarians tend to pay more attention to EVERYTHING they do & ingest. That awareness leads to a longer and more healthy life span, not the choice to eat meat or no..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #102 July 10, 2003 QuoteQuotebecause carrots dont bleed they do when you put them is the Juicer... lol they scream too if you mic them right ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allicat 0 #103 July 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLast time I checked, plants are living creatures too...... ... Oh come on, not the plant argument! I guess I need to spell out I am talking about living things with CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEMS. so your importance to the 'life cycle' and your place in it is determined by your ability to experience pain? a bit unenlightened dont you think? life is life. somethings are nessesary. Unenlightened? I don't even know how to respond to that. All I am saying is that, no, watching a plant be dismembered does not hurt my feelings. Watching a person or animal be dismembered? Yes that hurts my feelings. Why? The former does not feel pain and suffering, the latter does. It's pretty simple. so your basing a scientific observation (killing animals is bad, but killing plants is ok) on an emotional response? enlightenment is recognizing that ALL life has value and that it is taken to benifit other lives as part of a continuing cycle. Respect for the sacrifice (unwilling in all cases) of another life (any life) is far more important than "feeling' good because carrots dont bleed... Talk about forcing one's beliefs on others. Sheesh! I am not buddhist. My goal is not to become enlightened according to your definition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #104 July 10, 2003 i'm not forcing you to do anything..i'm pointing out that the basis for your prefrence of salad vs meat is an emotional response. That there is no difference between taking one life or another to feed yourself except that you value one more, and that that value system is completely personal, and not based on any fact other than emotional empathy. this does not mean vegetarians are 'wrong' but it does mean they arent any more 'right' than a carnivore.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySurfSnow 0 #105 July 10, 2003 Animals have a dual purpose in life: 1. Fit well. 2. Taste good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #106 July 10, 2003 Ohhh... you guys are talking about vegetables... when you said vegetarian cooking, I was thinking how skinny most vegetarians are. They would probably be cooked in no time at all. Might be ok if we could put them on a feed lot for a month or so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #107 July 11, 2003 you know, this post used to be about bullfighting... damn vegetarians are hijacking our threads MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #108 July 11, 2003 QuoteOhhh... you guys are talking about vegetables... when you said vegetarian cooking, I was thinking how skinny most vegetarians are. They would probably be cooked in no time at all. Might be ok if we could put them on a feed lot for a month or so. Why do I have the sudden urge for a rib-eye steak?Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #109 July 11, 2003 Hmmm...How about I try to put it back on subject, as a real live American who has been to Pamplona, seen the running of the bulls as well as one of the corridas during the Fiesta de San Fermin? First, a disclaimer: I love Spain. I have always been fascinated by the culture there, and after spending 3 weeks there after college, my love only deepened. One of the things I most looked forward to was seeing a bullfight. Mainly I was curious, but I also knew a little bit about the corrida from previous reading (Death in the Afternoon by Hemingway is a good one). First, San Fermines didn't become the huge drunken party that it is today until after Papa Hemingway published The Sun Also Rises. The Iruña Cafe is still there, where Hemingway hung out while researching and writing the book. By the way, "Iruña" is the Basque name for Pamplona. OK, I'll start with a brief overview of how San Fermines (commonly called the "running of the bulls") goes. Noon on July 8th - Mayor fires rocket from town hall balcony signaling the start of the Fiesta. The town square in front of the town hall is jamed with probably 100,000 people throwing flour, eggs, sugar, champagne and who knows what else. I had a cake on my shoes...and almost got trampled. afternoon-evening-night of 8 July: partying commences, bars are jammed, streets are packed. Imagine Mardi Gras. Now imagine it for 8 days straight. Party goes until 8 am... 8 am on 9 July and on each subsequent morning: The running of the bulls along a mile-long course through the streets of Pamplona, from the pens to the bullring. Everyone who runs in front of the bulls ends up in the bullring with them and thus commences a giant free-for-all with the bulls and people in the ring...this is NOT the bullfight. The bulls (and cows) that run are not the 6 that will be used later in the corrida. ~9 am until 5pm each day: sleeping. I slept in one of the parks. Hotel rooms are impossible to come by and too expensive, anyway. 5 pm: time for the Corrida. Three matadors participate. Each corrida is actually 6 separate bullfights, with each matador taking 2 bulls. You can read elsewhere how a bullfight goes. The parade, the picadores, the bandilereros, and the matador with the muleta and sword. The purpose of the picador and the bandilleras is to weaken the bull's neck muscles so the matador will have an easier time making the kill quickly. And the bulls ARE eaten after the corrida, sometimes as soon as that very night. Now, for my feelings about the corrida. Call me a cruel callous bitch if you want, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. I was lucky to attend a good corrida, with one of the matadors receiving an ear on both of his fights, and the others doing reasonably well, also. Only one missed the kill on his first try, in one of his fights. There is definiteiy an artistry to it that will never be appreciated by most, since they judge without ever having seen a corrida, and would be biased if they ever did. If anyone cares, I have a bunch of pictrues from the Fiesta, the running, and the corrida, and I can try to dig them out and scan them if you want. AndiNever meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #110 July 11, 2003 QuoteThey don't deserve to die or get terribly injured because they are addreniline-seekers and wanted to run in front of a bunch of bulls. Just for the record, I wouldn't have been laughing at these guys if they had been seriously injured or killed. The fact that they got beaten up just a little bit in an event that (in my opinion) is cruel to animals was amusing to me though - "poetic justice" as someone else stated. It's interesting to hear both sides of the argument (whether this event is cruel or not). It's funny how two people can see the same thing yet have completely opposite opinions about it, but that's the way it is with everything in life (and why we will never have a perfect government ;-) Hmmm... why does the wingloading BSR come to mind now??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #111 July 11, 2003 Quotewith one of the matadors receiving an ear on both of his fights That means it was a good corrida, I've been to some in which the matador got both ears and the tail. Going to a corrida, sun, food and WINE...mmmmm, nice.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #112 July 11, 2003 Quote It's interesting to hear both sides of the argument (whether this event is cruel or not). It's funny how two people can see the same thing yet have completely opposite opinions about it, but that's the way it is with everything in life (and why we will never have a perfect government ;-) Hmmm... why does the wingloading BSR come to mind now??? I totally agree. I am also a little biased because a good friend of mine got gored in the knee a couple years ago at the running. She didn't want to watch the bullfight, but just run in front of the bulls for the rush. Thats probably the main reason I don't feel happy when one of the bull runners gets gored. I do have to admit though, those "Real TV" clips of the bull fighters getting gored right in the butt do make me laugh. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #113 July 11, 2003 QuoteJust for the record, I wouldn't have been laughing at these guys if they had been seriously injured or killed. The fact that they got beaten up just a little bit in an event that (in my opinion) is cruel to animals was amusing to me though - "poetic justice" as someone else stated. see i would. I honestly cheer for the bulls, i think they lose far to often. I'd support a training program to even the odds even more. i think the human should be at roughly equal risk levels with the animal in these kinds of 'duels' as i said before, you should also be able to hunt anything you wish, so long as you do it with a spear. there would be quite a few less humans and more tigers left in the world if this had always been the rule. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
