Man, I hope this isn't true...

[AggieDave 6]

The number for Stalin has been exagerated in the past, due to new information that shows that a lot of the disappearances that were recorded by families as deaths, were actually reloactions to remote areas and banished from going back "home."

That's not to say that Stalin didn't have a lot of people killed, though. He did, a lot...actually a whole fucking lot of people.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[sinker 0]

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What sucks about that is that no one honest will EVER run for office because honest people can't gain
the power that liars can. You tell the truth, which often sucks, and you're going to be voted out for
someone who can lie and make everything sound good.
So what are you left with? You have to choose the "lesser of the evils", as the saying goes.

sad but true...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[PhillyKev 0]

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Forgiveness and "letting someone move on" has nothing to do w/ someone paying the price for their mistakes/errors/transgressions.

Makes sense.

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second of all, you seem real keen on this whole hypocrisy thing.

I never once called you a hypocrite. I've questioned some of your statements, which you then answered honestly and fluently. If you were the type that just spouted crap, I'd come out and call you a hypocrite, but you're not. I'm just trying to understand the positions that you take, and I appreciate that you remain consistent and don't contradict yourself.

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Fine... but he got what he diserved in inpeachment too...

I think that was more than he deserved. An official censure would have been sufficient, IMO.

[sinker 0]

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If your boss asked you to prove that you were being faithful to the Ten Commandments, because that's
what he believed in, would you be OK with that? Say, a simple lie detector test.

ya know, he's the boss. sure, he can't discriminate against religion. but what about a lesbian who is fighting to get a job teaching religion and morals at a Catholic school?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[PhillyKev 0]

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but what about a lesbian who is fighting to get a job teaching religion and morals at a Catholic school?

If she had the knowledge, ability, and experience to teach those subjects as well or better than others applying for the job, then whose business is it if she's a lesbian?

[lawrocket 3]

Peasants that get reported get nailed for it. And his was the biggest news story of the year. Your friend got nailed for doing what the President did, eh? Too bad he wasn't President. For the POTUS is was just oral sex (depending on what the definition of "is" is.)

You think Janet Reno wanted to go after Billy for his acts? Nawww. Easier to go after others. Easier to go after your friend. Don't wanna piss of the boss.

The point is he violated laws that he not only swore to enforce, but laws that he himself implemented. There are laws against fellated in the Oval Office. Namely, if done by a federal employee. He cannot commit adultery in the Oval Office with a federal employee. He cannot have sex in the White House...with a federal employee.

It happens all the time in the real world. That's why the law was passed. That's why his administration tightened the regulation on the conduct. Well, tightened it on us peasants...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[sinker 0]

I'm not saying you called me a hypocrite, but twice now you've brought up what you thought were inconsistencies in my and Muenkel's beliefs. It's just too common that people do that to people like us. Most of the time it's just a cop out. If that's not your beef, then I am ligitimately glad. I really am
so anyway... I think if Billy just told the truth, there should have been consequences, but those would likely come naturally in the court of public opinion. But the perjury, that's what really steamed me.

ah well... don't worry, I don't think W is perfect. far from it actually. I think he's the lesser of the two evils in the previous election, and I think it's shitty that we have to settle for that.

thanks for your post.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

it would be scandalous and damaging to a young kid who was being taught by a practicing homosexual that homosexual activity is wrong, which is the doctrine of the catholic church. what if the kid sees his teacher gettin busy at the movie theatre or something w/ her girlfriend? so the duplicity hits the kid like a hammer!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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The office of the president is not simple a "job" like someone writing code.

Exactly the reason for the need to lie..

Here is a hypothetical situation that explains this well: Say we sent a SEAL team with some CIA agents in to wipe out a band of terrorist that were going to attack a US target, and made it look like tribal fighting. We did this in the sovern territory of another country, and admitting to this would cost us dearly in World opinion. At a summit, the French President asks our President directly "Did you have anything to do with this."....

I expect him to say "NO." And handle the situation like only an accomplished liar can.

I respect you for your high moral standards because they are evenly applied. That is refreshing, but unapplicable in most political circles.

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If it occurs in the same context as slick willy, then they should be accountable for.

Yeah he just got caught.

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they are people of influence and are held to a high standard. don't like it? tough...

you can hold them to that standard... But I would vote for Bill now if I could. Bush did a great job with the terrorist/iraq thing. But, now we need someone with the charisma and common sense to fix the economy, and mend a few fences.

[sinker 0]

i agree w/ you on the charisma and mending thing.. I really do. GWB is sure rough around the edges.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[PhillyKev 0]

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it would be scandalous and damaging to a young kid who was being taught by a practicing homosexual that homosexual activity is wrong, which is the doctrine of the catholic church. what if the kid sees his teacher gettin busy at the movie theatre or something w/ her girlfriend? so the duplicity hits the kid like a hammer!

Sure, there is a chance of that. But it's kind of far fetched, and what's to prevent a straight, unmarried teacher from being caught getting busy at the movie theater? Wouldn't that have the same effect?

I think the more damaging lesson is demonstrating through hiring policies that lesbians or anyone else should be shunned or treated differently when the supposed message of the church is one of forgiveness and compassion.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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homosexual activity is wrong, which is the doctrine of the catholic church

Wrong person to try that one on.
Homosexuality is not wrong according to the catholic church, Homosexual sex is... for the sole reason that sex is for procreation ONLY.

So if you have sex with your wife and use birth control, you are just as guilty as a homosexual having sex.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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it would be scandalous and damaging to a young kid who was being taught by a practicing homosexual that homosexual activity is wrong, which is the doctrine of the catholic church. what if the kid sees his teacher gettin busy at the movie theatre or something w/ her girlfriend? so the duplicity hits the kid like a hammer!

Sure, there is a chance of that. But it's kind of far fetched, and what's to prevent a straight, unmarried teacher from being caught getting busy at the movie theater? Wouldn't that have the same effect?

I think the more damaging lesson is demonstrating through hiring policies that lesbians or anyone else should be shunned or treated differently when the supposed message of the church is one of forgiveness and compassion.

The Catholic Church is not a democracy, nor is it eqalitarian; plus it was created by humans and thus is flawed, as are all forms of religion.

Want to know just how flawed the church is? Join the seminary like I did. Needless to say, after eight years of schooling I have more examples than most. You would be surprised just how bad it really is. Thanks to the seminary, I am no longer a practicing catholic.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[livendive 8]

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Bill, your example doesn't scale quite to the same scope of responsibility.

Personally, the way I look at it, if the guy can't keep a promise to his own wife, then how can we as a nation trust him to do something like lead America?

But if he can't keep his promise to serve America (in the Air National Guard), we can trust him to serve America (as President)?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[sinker 0]

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Wrong person to try that one on.
Homosexuality is not wrong according to the catholic church, Homosexual sex is... for the sole reason
that sex is for procreation ONLY.

So if you have sex with your wife and use birth control, you are just as guilty as a homosexual having
sex.

Oh goody!!! (rubs hands together) Someone who thinks they know what the Catholic church teaches about sexuality!!! Notice in my original post I said ACTIVITY!! Not homosexuality. I will respond further later this evening... this is going to be fun!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

I'd be happy to bible/church duel you... I don't know if everyone else on this thread wants to see it.

Please private me when you are ready, unless everyone else wants to join in.

edit to add: Yup you are right, I missed "activity." but the comparison still stands.

[JDBoston 0]

Hahahaha. Yep. And what percentage of American adults have racked up a couple DUI felonies, I wonder. Oops. To me, that's a little worse than getting a blowjob from an intern and not wanting your family to find out. But that's just me. Details, details. Our first felon President.

I differ from a lot of people here in that I don't trust Bush at all. I don't buy the "he's rough around the edges but at least he's honest" thing. I don't think he is. At all. I think he has consistently acted to benefit the people and industries whose pocket he's in, with little regard for the long-term good of the country, and makes up excuses to justify his actions to the public.

Whenever I listen to him speak, I get the feeling he's lying about something. He's just too imprecise in his answers to direct questions. To me that's the sign of someone who's being untruthful.

On the religion thing, it's my impression that political leaders who talk about God a lot do not have a stellar record in general. Separation of Church and State is so fucking important. Mixing God and public policy is not an indication of private morality, it's using a smokescreen that appeals to uncritical voters and deflects debate on the actual issues by taking them out of the realm of logic.

My $0.02,
Joe

[wmw999 2,444]

Shoot, everyone else has weighed in, I need to too

Personally, most people really expect their leaders to be "better" than they are, in whatever way they think is important. People who disagree on what's important in a leader will never never never agree on this, because it goes to the core of their values.

I know people who think GWB is a good president because he seems to be a good man. Frankly, I know lots of good men (and women) who aren't president, so to me that's not so important.

That said, I think that one of the things that makes this country great is its religious tolerance, and the assumption by the President that his religious point of view is "right" because all the people he surrounds himself agree with him is scary.

My father (who is a diehard liberal) can't imagine why prayer is bad in the school, because it just shouldn't be too hard for someone to read their own deity into the word "God." But our country, and the world, deserve better than someone who views their interpretation of God as a basis for international behavior, assuming that everyone they deal with either shares it, or doesn't matter.

Now that's scary

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sinker 0]

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That said, I think that one of the things that makes this country great is its religious tolerance, and the
assumption by the President that his religious point of view is "right" because all the people he surrounds
himself agree with him are scary.

can't help but agree w/ you there... his remarks, if he said them, were insensitive.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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The Catholic Church is not a democracy, nor is it eqalitarian; plus it was created by humans and thus is flawed, as are all forms of religion. Want to know just how flawed the church is? Join the seminary like I did. Needless to say, after eight years of schooling I have more examples than most. You would be surprised just how bad it really is.
Thanks to the seminary, I am no longer a practicing catholic.

With regard to your first statement, you are partially right. The belief of the Catholic church was that it was created by ONE human, Jesus. It also claims that in matters of faith and morals it is not flawed. It is not fully evolved, but that is not exactly the same thing. People IN the Church are suredly flawed, as you point out in your post about the seminary. And because I believe these things, what the church teaches, you may think I'm "intolerant." However, I also believe, in no contradiction to my Catholic faith, that all religions have aspects of truth in them. Including the Muslin faith, Hinduism, Judaeism (sp?), etc. And, in concert w/ my faith, I condemn no one, from those w/ a homosexual orientation, to those who reject Christ, those of non-Christian faiths, etc. I do not know what is in anyone's heart. Not even fully what is in my own. That is God's job and I'm grateful it isn't mine.


As to your second point, yes the seminary system, especially in this country is faulty, as are many many priests. But why is this a reason to abandon the church? There are those who do not live by the church's teaching, as much as they claim to the contrary. However, one still must distinguish b/c false teachers and witnesses and those who are not. I too have seen some of the American seminaries. Some were atrocius. But some were wonderful.

I'm sorry your experience was so bad.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

First, let me say this... my earlier comments to "duel" the teachings of the Catholic church on sexuality was a bit conceited on my part. And I'm afraid they weren't very sensitive either. For that I apologize.

Secondly, I don't have any qualms about debating in a public forum, as long as it is respectful, thoughtful, upbuilding, etc. I certainly don't mind being the underdog and having many others arguing against me. It hasn't been the first time, won't be the last. As long as we can respect each other in the morning, I'm cool with it I will always respect those who have differing opinions than I do. You are no less a human b/c you are gay or your are liberal or you are... whatever...

Thirdly, this particular matter is obviously very much central to who we are as people, people w/ a sexual nature. If someone can't in a sense detach themselves and be objective about the subject matter, then they are best not participating.

That having been said... let's go I say... If people don't want to hear it, they don't have to read it... they can say/do their own thing, no skin off my teeth...



So? Let's do it I say.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[w4p2 0]

President Bush is the most dangerous living individual at large.

He is a warning beacon to everyone, a manifestation
of how self righteous religious, pompous lunatic can bring down the good will and sympahaty, that USA had world wide since 911. Everything reduced to ruble, by the actions of one man.

This man is no different from the overseas zealiots he thinks he is crushing. He belongs exactly to the same "God told us to snuff you" category.

The only difference is.... that this lunatic really has the nuclear capability.

Even in their wildest dreams al-Qaida operatives could not have imagined the type of outcome that has resulted from mr. Bush's actions. Maybe they should award him a medal of merit.

I am a conservative and I have great respect for citizens of USA, I use to have respect to USA in general.... unfortunately no more.

It is your country and your upcoming elections....
get off your ass and register.... vote this maniac out of the office before he really blows the world apart.

SAD, SAD, SAD: JL

[sinker 0]

what was that?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[w4p2 0]

An attempt to bring this thred from homosexuality back to politics.

An attempt to bring the thread from general discussion of religious morale and tolerance to discussion of the actions and statements of a single elected official.

Cheers: JL

[sinker 0]

but hijacked threads are much more interesting...
and this one was more of a natural progression, a morphing, an evolution

so is what you said about our wacko pres your true feelings?

-the artist formerly known as sinker