Teardrop 2 pin and Firelite

[skyturtle 0]

Anyone had any experience on this container or reserve? They're both made in 88' and im thinking of buying them if they fit.

Anything i should be worried about/aware of? Are they suitable for a first rig? Im 150lbs exit weight and reserve is a 174 so i dont think w/l will be a problem (but feel free to correct me on that). Does the age matter?

Couldnt find anything in the gear section on either or the forum search (apart from a tiny bit on the firelite)

[riggerrob 643]

Something that small should only be jumped by small jumpers. Definitely keep the wing-loading below one pound per square foot. I remember making a handful of jumps on a Firelite 176 main, back when they were fashionable and I only weighed 182 pounds. Even though most of my landings were stand-ups - in the pea gravel bowl - my ankles stung every time!

Something that old will require the assistance of a grumpy, old, grey-bearded Master Rigger to research all the Service Bulletins.

Something that old will also require the sewing skills of an - Airtec approved_ rigger to sew in Cypres pockets. It will also9 require an electronic AAD with two cutters ... available, but the search will take a day or three.

[skyturtle 0]

Haha yeah your post was the one i mentioned. As long as its with my exit weight it should be fine though? It has a cypres 2 already installed, so that should be ok.

Is jumping gear older than you generally a bad idea then ?

P.S Is pullout the same as BOC or is it a ripcord system?

[Deyan 36]

Check if it's with soft or hard housings.

Soft= NOT good

ETA

Thomas Sport has 15 years life limit on their products. Extension with 5 years is possible after factory inspection.

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[PhreeZone 20]

At that age the rig was probably originally set up as an Rear of Leg deployment but if it has a CYPRES2 in it they might have had it modified to be an BOC. Before you buy it have it REALLY looked over by a knowledgeable rigger that has some experience on older gear. There are lots of things that might need to be looked at that a quick glance will not notice on older gear so make sure your inspector knows what they are doing. Make sure all the paperwork is right and the BOC is correct if it has been replaced.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[pchapman 279]

Firelites are OK. They fly fine if not overloaded. There was a main canopy version that seemed to be common enough back in the day. Under 1:1 wing load is no problem. I personally don't like the design style with line attachment flares for a reserve, but the canopies and similar ones were very common. (And indeed continue to be built, although are rarer.)

I'm not in tune with UK gear so wasn't aware there ever was a 2 pin Teardrop. They've built 1 pin Teardrops for many years with no mention of 2 pin ones on the TSE site. However, the 1 pin Teardrop has often been called a "1 pin Teardrop", suggesting that there was a 2 pin at one time. I bet the 2 pins are rare even in the UK. Your profile isn't filled in so we have no idea which country you are in. Thomas Sports Equipment gear is very rare in the US for example.

As others are saying, we can't evaluate the rig without knowing exactly how it was built and what modifications it might have had -- AAD pouch, main & reserve pin protection, bridle stowage, pilot chute stowage, riser protection.

If the rig is OK, whether for skydiving in general or just belly flying or whatever, the price better be low enough to account for any limitations compared to newer gear.

[skyturtle 0]

Im in the UK and the kit is for sale in my local shop so getting someone with enough experience to check it out shouldnt be a problem.

I really only want the main (190 spectre) from it and the AAD, my budget can accomodate looking elsewhere for a better container/reserve so i might ask if he's willing to split it.

If it needs things such as extending the life/mods for service bulletins etc i might have to go elsewhere as i'd rather just buy something better that i wont have to mess around with.

ETA probably a VERY good idea to get a different reserve because whilst its still within my size range i dont really want to learn to fly a smaller canopy than usual after a mal.

[dragon2 2]

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P.S Is pullout the same as BOC or is it a ripcord system?

No and no. It is a different opening system than those two.

A pullout rig has the pilotchute handle in the same location as a BOC. The pilotchute is packed inside the main container (and this is easy to do wrong). The closing pin is straight, not curved. The handle on the pilotchute is "on the wrong side of the pilotchute" when you compare it to a BOC pilotchute. The handle on a pullout pc looks like one of those modern freefly-type pud handles (or rather, visa versa ).

You pull out the pilotchute only after you've pulled out the pin yourself, then you throw away the pilotchute similarly to BOC.

This opening system has its pros and cons.

Pros:
- you have more control over when the main tray opens, this is excellent for CRW/CF jumps, and possibly for freefly as there is no pilotchute that can worm itself out when you freefly (possibly the rig itself is not freefly proof as it is older though).
- it is much less likely to have a pilotchute-in-tow malfunction with a pullout

Cons:
- you have to know how to pack a pullout or rather, your specific pullout, without causing a total mal because you can't pull out the pin. There's multiple systems around that vary slightly. Easy enough to check on the ground if you packed it correctly though
- a somewhat common malfunction is "floating pud" ie you let go of the pc handle too soon. So don't do that.
- you shouldn't wingsuit with a pullout rig


Usually if you buy a rig with pullout and you don't like it, you can have the rig converted to BOC (meaning a pilotchute pocket sewn on and a new pc+bridle). You might like it though. Provided you do not wingsuit a pullout rig is not a bad option for a non-student jumper, it's just not very common.

I have just a few jumps on a (borrowed) pullout system, I thought it was kinda fun to pull the pin myself

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[councilman24 37]

You can still buy a new Firelite. But is a 24 year old one appropriate to be your LAST CHANCE TO LIVE? (Yes, I say that alot) A tear drop that old, I don't know. I'd think for not much more money you can get a whole lot closer to current.

Look at all the things listed in previous posts and decide if its' worth the hassle. If the main and AAD are worth the price and you can essentially throw away the harness and reserve then maybe it's worth getting the good parts.

I'm not familiar with Tear Drops life limits but if it's 15 plus 5 is dead no matter what.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skyturtle 0]

Quote

You can still buy a new Firelite. But is a 24 year old one appropriate to be your LAST CHANCE TO LIVE? (Yes, I say that alot) A tear drop that old, I don't know. I'd think for not much more money you can get a whole lot closer to current.

Look at all the things listed in previous posts and decide if its' worth the hassle. If the main and AAD are worth the price and you can essentially throw away the harness and reserve then maybe it's worth getting the good parts.

I'm not familiar with Tear Drops life limits but if it's 15 plus 5 is dead no matter what.

Thats more or less what the thread was about, whether something should be used thats that old. Im gonna ask the guy if he'll split it and if not i might buy it anyway and just get a different container and reserve.

Thanks for the help guys

[riggerrob 643]

TSE started building Teardrops back during the 1980s. The first Teardrop pattern had two reserve ripcord pins and looked like 1980s-vintage Racers. Two-pin Teardrops also packed pretty much the same as Racers.

Circa 1990, TSE introduced the radically-new single-pin Teardrop, which was one of the first single-pin Pop-Tops and one of the first reserve pilot chutes to include a domed aluminum cap. Packing single-pin Teardrops requires a TSE manual, because the process differs - from Racers - at several steps.

I have packed a few 2-pin Teardrops and a bunch of single-pin Teardrops. The one-pin Teardrop is definitely easier to pack, though I still use the "ghost loops" supplied by the Racer Factory.

There are two ways to pack Pop-Tops: with ghost loops, or the hard way!

[councilman24 37]

Don't get me wrong. I use and jump lots of older gear and I'm more than willing to jump some vintage gear 30 or 40 years old. But I know what risk I'm taking and try to minimize it.

But I'm also williing to jump some of that stuff with ripcords and without AADs, with round reserves, capewells etc.

But age issues and modifications needed are not things you want to deal with on your first rig. I deal with them on my 4th, 5th, 6th, etc rigs.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[pchapman 279]

Quote

Thomas Sport has 15 years life limit on their products. Extension with 5 years is possible after factory inspection.

Interesting. I double checked the TSE manuals, which seem only to say that their rigs "should" be returned for inspection after 10 years.

In other words, I'm free to ignore TSE; there's no mandatory limit.

Don't know if that's different for anyone in the UK due to other BPA regs.

(Nice thought there councilman -- keep one's 1st rig normal... and go weirder as one accumulates rigs & knowledge.)

[Deyan 36]

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Quote

Thomas Sport has 15 years life limit on their products. Extension with 5 years is possible after factory inspection.

Interesting. I double checked the TSE manuals, which seem only to say that their rigs "should" be returned for inspection after 10 years.

In other words, I'm free to ignore TSE; there's no mandatory limit.

Of course you can ignore them. But at the end of the day, you are the one signing the papers.

I'm not touching anything from TSE older than 15 years without re certification. Period.

http://www.thomas-sports.com/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=1&yt_color=blue


Just call them and hear what they have to say on that matter

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[riggerrob 643]

When you ignore a manufacturer's recommendation, you stand alone in court.

IOW if you repack an old TSE product - and the user gets hurt - the judge will say "march the guilty bastard in!"

[skyturtle 0]

Interestingly does that apply to w/l limits? If you go in under a wing that you've loaded substantially beyond the MFG (sp.) and it wasnt directly your fault in that particular incident, is it still your fault?

[riggerrob 643]

A few years ago, a skydiver injured himself - while exceeding the placarded weight limit on his reserve. The reserve tore.
An uncle - - of the injured skydive - offered to sue the canopy manufacturer, in hopes of recouping some of his medical expenses.
Various skydiving industry sages told him that he no hope of winning that suit ...

[ChrisClark 0]

The 2 pin Teardrop used a lot of velcro on the riser covers (which may require replacement) and if it has a pullout deployment system then you would not be able to use this in the UK until holding a FAI ‘C’ Certificate, so would have to be converted to a throwout. I would suggest looking for something else. I am UK rigger, email me on rigger220@btinternet.com or phone 07748 112188 and I can help you with any queries about gear.

[dragon2 2]

Quote

if it has a pullout deployment system then you would not be able to use this in the UK until holding a FAI ‘C’ Certificate

Really? I've never heard of a limitation like that. Can you tell me why that is?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Remster 30]

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Quote

if it has a pullout deployment system then you would not be able to use this in the UK until holding a FAI ‘C’ Certificate

Really? I've never heard of a limitation like that. Can you tell me why that is?

In the UK, the BPA decided that pull out were not as easy to use as throw outs (floating pud's and all). So they put a requirement that you need a C (was it a D a few years ago?)

Funny thing is, because of that, lots of jumper saw the POD as "the expert's choice" and there is an apparent high proportion of jumpers with POD's in the UK because of wanting to look like a pro once they hit that D (or C).

Remster

[ChrisClark 0]

Yes really. In 1987/88 the STC (Safety & Training Committee) passed a rule that the use of pull-out deployment be limited to FAI 'D' licence holders, 200+ jumps at that time. The modern 'C' licence is 200 jumps, 'D' licence is now 1000 jumps. A lot of skydivers used the pull-out system in the UK at that time, Racers and Chasers (UK copy of Racer) were popular. In fact my first rig was a Chaser with a pullout, our DZ was predominately pull-out users, I had to get the container converted to throw-out as I had only come off student status then. There was a fatality (possibly 2) in '87 and obviously quite a few incidents concerning deployment problems and the committee restricted the use of pull-outs. A few years later they also banned belly mounted throw-outs after another death. Bottom of container (BOC) mounting the pc has made the throw-out system a lot safer but not idiot proof (nothing ever is or ever will be). I don't want to start a debate on pull-out v throw-out, I was just letting that skydiver know the position with that particular set of gear he was thinking of buying.