mouth 0 #76 June 19, 2003 Where's the Bytch when you need her? Thankfully I've not been included in the bitch list tonight. Thanks Clay and Lou I do have to chime in that the comment was out of line and uncalled for. We didn't have a hanging harness at my DZ when I went through student status, nor did we have anything for Safety Day (sad IMHO, but I'm not in charge). In a perfect world every DZ would have everything, but life just ain't always fair that way. JP, I'm just glad you are safe and have learned from what could have been a costly mistake. -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #77 June 19, 2003 QuoteSee....that's your MAJOR Dysfunction But of course... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #78 June 19, 2003 If you go back and read the thread, the only part that anyone had issues with was the last sentence your uber friend made. And I will reitterate what I posted earlier, I don't give a fuck how many jumps you have or your experience, as Deuce stated, that last comment was just plain rude."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
geronimo 1 #79 June 19, 2003 WOW! Most of the replies to my post are BIZARRE!?!? Maybe you folks can help further my education. I do not know about you but when I see people doing stuff (that they should not be doing) that can kill you, me or someone else, I make mention of it. Quote On big-ways everyone snip QuoteYou were wearing a camera snip QuoteEveryone should do a real deployment, cutaway and pull reserve EVERY time they get a repack (on the ground ;) ). There is no excuse not to. I do not see anything offensive in any of the recommendations I wrote. It's written in the regular second person familiar (or whatever it's called). Most people write 'You do this or you do that blah blah blah.. QuoteI definitely have a much clearer understanding why people go in. Thanks for the education. Reaction to these sentences is the MOST BIZARRE. Perhaps your education in skydiving has ended, but mine has not. I've had a personal mission since 1981 (that may be longer than some of you have been alive) to learn why people go in. The more I learn about the reasons, the more information I have to save myself in a myriad of situations. I think thanking someone for an education is polite, not rude. If fact, this education prompted me to send in two more revisions to the SIM. 1) Based on a) 15 of 20 people at Safety Day that had never heard about practicing EPs at repack time b) recently witnessing a 100% CYPRES save by a guy that had never practiced EPs since a refresher course 5 years ago (He pulled his cutaway, then main. No reserve pull & no RSL. His CYPRES saved him.) c) the paragraph in the most recent S&T NL about EPs see http://uspa.org/safety/newsletters/STNews061003.pdf d) Deuce saying ' never practiced cutting away in a hanging harness' I sent this change request to the S&T Comm: With the large number of folks that do not practice eps after student status I think we should specifically state the following in the SIM. 5-1.A.5 (suggested section) Practice your emergency procedures on the ground at every repack. Simulate some type of main malfunction after your last jump of the day. Then cutaway and pull the reserve. This will give you first hand knowledge about the pull forces and direction on your gear. .. This seems really obvious and many of the longer term jumpers do this, but somehow some way the newer jumpers do not know this. No one has ever told them to do this. This is not an isolated phenomena. There are jumpers across the nation that have never heard of this. ---- 2) Based on a jumper with 488 jumps doing his first 35-way I sent in: add to sim 6-1.C.2.b to your assigned pull altitude Some other comments on this: I occasionally run into people with 50-100 jumps that have done mostly solos not realize that you should track all the way to your assigned pull altitude. Until yesterday I assumed that folks that have RW experience know to do this. If the plan was to only track part way, then why not break off lower & use that altitude for RW? The plan is to track all the way to assigned pull altitude. I will no longer assume that new jumpers know this. I have added this additional instruction to my organizing spiels. I was also so concerned about this that I sent this email to Kate & Dan: It has been brought to my attention that many newer jumpers (ones that have not done +30-ways) do not understand that they should be tracking all the way to their assigned pull altitude. Many slow or stop their track around 3500 to 3000 because that's what they do on the littler ways. This is just an informal request to emphasize this at your camp. Emphasize 'track all the way' and emphasize 'assigned pull altitude'. BTW, there is nothing in the sim that addresses this. I did put in a request for sec 6-1.C.2.b to read flat track away (....) to your assigned pull altitude. This will do absolutely nothing for your camp, but maybe after the next printing more people might know this coming in (or not). A couple of pointers that go along with this are that you can sit up & de-arch as you wave off to kill off the tracking speed. If someone says they have a long snivelly canopy, then you can ask them to get a different canopy or take themself off the load. I know you guys know this, but with the plethora of freefall & canopy collisions we've had lately, it couldn't hurt to remind everyone. oh yeah - no hook turns ;) ! cya -- Kate wrote back ' good points. I've also wondered if people understand that they CAN wave off while still moving forward and I bet many don't.' ---- Perhaps, adding a few items to the SIM will fill the in the missing information that newer jumpers are not getting, perhaps not. It is a start. The SIM has grown into a long list of recommended procedures that used to be passed verbally out at the DZ. In recent years, this has not happened. It might be because people do not stay the whole weekend anymore. You can burn up all your money in an afternoon. Twenty years ago it took two days. Thanks again for the education. If you take that as rude, so be it, but I know more today than yesterday.--- I have a dream that my posts will one day will not be judged by the color of the fonts or settings in a Profile but by the content. Geronimo_AT_http://ParachuteHistory.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyz 0 #80 June 19, 2003 oh yeah - no hook turns ;) ! Yeah Like that's ever going to happen! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #81 June 19, 2003 Hey Geronimo, This is an odd somewhat dysfunctional family here. While some people "got" your post, others chose to view it as an "attack" on Deuce, (who is pretty popular in these parts.) So, they got on the defensive without really looking at what you were trying to say. (IMHO) Sometimes people who a) express strong opinions and b) have limited information in their profiles are instantly dismissed as TROLLS. I say keep posting and passing on information as you see fit. Maybe it will reach some people who need to hear it. Peace and blue skies! maura Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cornholio 0 #82 June 19, 2003 QuoteThis is an odd somewhat dysfunctional family here. While some people "got" your post, others chose to view it as an "attack" on Deuce, (who is pretty popular in these parts.Wink) So, they got on the defensive without really looking at what you were trying to say. (IMHO) Sometimes people who a) express strong opinions and b) have limited information in their profiles are instantly dismissed as TROLLS. I say keep posting and passing on information as you see fit. Maybe it will reach some people who need to hear it. You know not only is that correct, but you could say everything right and sign it "Geronimo" or "tonto" or "Lone Ranger" and people would go "huh? Who the Fawk is that ??" and then not take it seriously, as if it was coming from BillVon or the Bytch or someone else who has earned their reputation around here. I hear what Geronimo is saying, but only because I think I know who you are and have a great deal of respect for you. However, you're coming off as posting anonymously and you may talk the talk, but unless you state who you are, people aren't going to pay attention. Although if you keep posting stuff like this, people just might listen. Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast! Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool! bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #83 June 19, 2003 Well, I appreciate tough love as much as anybody. I am, however, well past the time in my life when telling me how stupid I am motivates me to be smarter. Men in smokey-bear hats are a dim part of my past. Geronimo, I would have liked to discuss this with you in PM's, as in my training and experience as a people manager and leader, I praise in public and criticise in private. You betcha, I made some mistakes. I acknowledge that in my original post. I shared my view of my mistakes as well. I think I demonstrated my ability to take criticism by so publicly inviting it. So, here's what I'm hearing. My training was inadequate because I didn't have a hanging harness to train in. Good advice for people who are looking for an AFF training facility: Make sure they do hanging harness training. (Too late for me) The lack of familiarity with the process in a harness could very well have killed me. -Serious shit. A 35 way is not big. OK. It was big for me, and is the start of my attempt to get on the sequential support team next year. I have no business being on a sequential record attempt because I have gaping holes in my knowledge of big way RW. Well, I'm going to these events to gain that expertise. You gave me good advice in that not only will the base start kicking us off at 5 grand, but I need to make sure I know the deployment altitude. Frankly they may have been assuming I knew it to be 2500, but I routinely pull at 3. Next time I'll ask. Good advice. It does concern me, though, that if I was 500 feet lower, I would have been under my reserve at 800 feet. That number would probably be higher if I hadn't had to roll off my back, but I think it would be the same had I cleared out of the spin, got stable and pulled. I was well aware I had no intention of letting my Cypres deploy my reserve. In discussions with members of the 125 way sequential record, they were under canopy by 2000 feet or higher. That suggests to me, a toss at about 2500 feet. I took offense, because your statement thanking me for giving you an education by nearly killing myself (your stated opinion) comes off as very sarcastic. This may be caused by english being your second language, or just our cultures being very different. If someone stepped off the curb and was critically injured by a bus, I think it would rude to thank that person for educating me about crossing the street against the light. Perhaps in your culture that is a frank acknowledgment of facts. It's rude where I'm sitting. I would yank the person out of traffic, not let them educate me. I hope you keep reading and posting, clearly you have a wealth of expertise we can all gain from. Wherever you actually are, you may be surrounded by sycophants. Here, you will gain the respect you are due by sharing your knowledge, not belittling other's ignorance. Cheers. JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #84 June 19, 2003 Like the others, I’d like to first say that I’m glad you’re alright. And second, I have no real constructive comments to make on the jump. I've been in these forums for 2 years now, since 2001, and in that time have made 19 jumps. Not a hell of a lot compared to your 500ish. I'm about 1 jump away from being off student status. When I'll actually make that jump I have no idea. I've been sitting quietly, with 414 posts, over 2 years, reading these forums, _everyday_. I've seen a lot of advice given, rejected and accepted. Geronimo's advice may have not been worded in the typical gental fashion of DZ.com, but it's still entirely valid. Rude? How can someone educating other from potentially killing himself or herself be rude? If I almost kill myself, don't praise me in public and crit me in private, that's not the point of these boards. The crit is public here so that we can ALL learn, in the most direct way, rather than 2-3 pages of people telling you way to go as we've seen for countless other posters. I wanted someone other than you, to hack apart your experience and analyze it from a perspective. It may be the nature of this close-nit community, in which I'm a loose thread, to continually congratulate people and keep the tone as a positive one (and that has it’s place); but I don't think that in a sport with the consequences skydiving has, that that is always the best approach. With the stakes at risk here, a poignant, and sharply worded commentary is occasionally serves as a welcomed, grounding, reminder of what we’re gambling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #85 June 19, 2003 QuoteI definitely have a much clearer understanding why people go in. Thanks for the education. As stated earlier, your advice was not a problem. The last sentence(quoted above) is what came off as rude. Call it a backhanded compliment if you will."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #86 June 19, 2003 Everything below simply plays to forum etiquette. Some things will make you unpopular: 1) Spam 2) Mindless post whoring 3) Repeating yourself 4) Rudeness 5) SHOUTING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #87 June 21, 2003 QuoteEverything below simply plays to forum etiquette. Some things will make you unpopular: 1) Spam 2) Mindless post whoring 3) Repeating yourself 4) Rudeness 5) SHOUTING What about whining? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #88 June 21, 2003 QuoteWhat about whining? How about being a skygoddess bitch? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
