This "brake fire" thing....

[peek 21]

You know, back in the "old days" when someone's toggle came unstowed on opening it used to be considered a problem, worthy of getting one's shit together and getting the gear fixed so that it never happened again.

After all, this is a problem that can cause anything from a cutaway to a [who knows what?] (What is worst thing that has happened to anyone with this problem?)

Now it seems like it is so commonplace that people have created a cutesy name for it, that is, "brake fire". They throw that expression around as though, well, "everybody gets those."

So when did it become acceptable for someone's toggle to come unstowed on opening? I don't know about you, but I find it completely unacceptable, (and easily preventable).

[Beer 0]

I don't seem to have this problem. My toggles stay firmly velcro'ed in place.

Maybe all you people jumping theese fanzy zero perosity canopies need to go back to "the good old days" of exposed risers and velcro.

Learn to be happy. You can't be there for anybody else in life if you can't learn to be there for yourself.

[billvon 2,991]

>So when did it become acceptable for someone's toggle to come unstowed on opening?

When people and packers stopped stowing excess brake line, and not replacing risers/toggles when they get old and weary.

[councilman24 37]

This thing about not stowing excess line really gets me. I just don't get why professional packers, or the riggers supervising, think it's okay. Granted I still haven't seen an elegant non velcro way of stowing the line but it needs to be stowed.

Gary,

I'm not sure that it's any more acceptable. But now it's more likely to be a major event in a jumpers career. They don't have real malfunctions anymore. So they're more likely to talk about it, and it's more likely to cause a reserve ride with the higher performance canopies.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[everymansaved 0]

I totally agree. Excess brake line should be stowed all the time. As for an elegant way, there's a system I believe I've seen on Mirages and Voodoos (could be wrong) with just a little piece of tape sewn on the front of the riser, just on the other side from the toggle. It doens't hold it super tight or anything, but it seems to do it's job.

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[towerrat 0]

I don't have this problem. My gear stays well maintained as I use it to jump from in-flight aircraft. I guess I'm funny like that..........

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[2shay 0]

no probs with trulock,not to say it does not happen

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[jdfreefly 1]

I've had 4 mals (in the first 1000 jumps), and I believe they were all caused by brake fires.

I consider all of the following to be contributing factors:
Gear age/maintenance
Riser Design
User error( I tend to grab the risers a little early )


I now own a wings and a voodoo container. I've put trulock risers on both, I stow the excess brake line with the locking pin, and I do it every time. It's been almost another 1000 jumps, and I've had no issues.

Since switching to trulocks, I've had a brake fire (up top) on a velo 111 loaded at 2.1. The trulocks worked and all I had was a turning canopy, not a spinning one.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[2shay 0]

i'm at 1.6 on a viper and no probs, I don't stow the same a upt but close too, and no probs.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[sid 1]

Jump Shack's toggles have double snaps and a really elegant way of stowing the line through a loop on the front of the riser. I have had a few rigging customers who have had toggle fires on opening with other systems and they've all bought Jump Shack risers after looking at mine.......

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[piisfish 140]

the Parachute de France system is the ABSOLUTE BEST (in my opinion).

Not that I specially like them (though their rig is one of the top on the market), but their toggle system is just plain incredible.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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When people and packers stopped stowing excess brake line, and not replacing risers/toggles when they get old and weary.

Also when slinks became commonplace and sliders were suddenly much more likley to slam into the toggles, thus dislodging them.

The not stowing the brake line thing is a real issue if you ask me. On smaller canopies, probably not a big deal because the loop is so short, but I see people jumping a spectre 210 with two feet of exposed loop, and it just seems they are asking for trouble.

That said... I've pointed this issue out to a couple of people with giant exposed loops, and they've asked me how to stow the line. On some risers THERE IS NOWHERE TO STOW IT! No velcro, no loops, no trulok pin, nothing! Sometimes you can fold it up and put it between the toggle keeper and the guide ring, but in the case of a 2-foot loop (esp if it's *gasp* dacron) I think that's asking for trouble too. For that matter, good riser designs like Trulok and others are insufficient for those large loops also.

When did velcro become so evil that noone will put it on a riser to retain the loop? I don't buy the line wear argument... when done properly there isnt' that much extra wear, and the lower brake line is the highest-wear line anyway. Harness manufacturers need to provide a riser product that allows jumpers to safley stow their brake lines.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[hackish 8]

Brake fire accounted for my first cutaway at jump #29. The lineslack caused a tension knot above the cascades and full opposite toggle wouldn't make ti fly straight.

This is one thing that I don't like about the sabre 210 I fly. The toggle system does not have a very neat arrangement for stowing the extra line.

The student rigs have little velcro flaps where you can stow the extra before laying the toggles on their velcro strips. Neat and effective enough but requires some maintenance.

A little closer to topic when your rigger does the re-pack they do they also check things out like your brake system to make sure things are not worn and susceptible to this problem?

-Michael

[pilotdave 0]

Yep, when I started jumping in the late 90s, nobody (at least most people that I was around) stowed the excess. It was something I was shown when I learned to pack, but the experienced jumpers showed me I could save time by skipping that step (although I always have stowed mine).

A fatality or two later, I think most people are stowing their excess now. I was pretty shocked a couple years ago when I saw a jumper packing a brand new fancy rig that didn't have any place to stow the excess. No excuse for that...

Dave

[phoenixlpr 0]

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This is one thing that I don't like about the sabre 210 I fly. The toggle system does not have a very neat arrangement for stowing the extra line.

Any improvement idea?

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A little closer to topic when your rigger does the re-pack they do they also check things out like your brake system to make sure things are not worn and susceptible to this problem?

Even you should be able to make a basic inspection of your gear.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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This is one thing that I don't like about the sabre 210 I fly. The toggle system does not have a very neat arrangement for stowing the extra line.

If there's no good way to store it, you should get new risers. Or have a velcro tab sewn on to allow you to stow the line.

Depending on how long the loop is, you can fold it up (back and forth maybe 2 inches long) and tuck it under the tip of the toggle where it inserts into the keeper, and above the guide ring.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[DougH 270]

No problem with Icon risers, they have the pin at the bottom. The only time I have come close is working one toggle half way out when dealing with sliders with tiny ass gromits.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[kkeenan 14]

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This is one thing that I don't like about the sabre 210 I fly. The toggle system does not have a very neat arrangement for stowing the extra line.

It's your rig to maintain as you choose. Get your rigger to look at the risers and see what they need. Your rigger can install whatever is needed to stow the excess brake line properly.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[kelpdiver 2]

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This is one thing that I don't like about the sabre 210 I fly. The toggle system does not have a very neat arrangement for stowing the extra line.

If there's no good way to store it, you should get new risers. Or have a velcro tab sewn on to allow you to stow the line.

that's what I'll have to do (though the brake fire phase was thankfully short lived), but it's something that should be there in the first place. Not sure why Wings doesn't.

[AllisonH 0]

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This is one thing that I don't like about the sabre 210 I fly. The toggle system does not have a very neat arrangement for stowing the extra line.

If there's no good way to store it, you should get new risers. Or have a velcro tab sewn on to allow you to stow the line.

that's what I'll have to do (though the brake fire phase was thankfully short lived), but it's something that should be there in the first place. Not sure why Wings doesn't.

My Wings risers came with elastic on the rear side of the riser to slide the excess through. It was really tight and was eating up my brake lines (well, I was destroying them trying to get them through the elastic anyway), so my rigger replaced the elastic with a different type of loop that is much easier to use.

[ahegeman 0]

I don't get why people leave stowing their brakes up to the packer in the first place. Or uncollapsing their slider and cocking their pilot chute.

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This thing about not stowing excess line really gets me. I just don't get why professional packers, or the riggers supervising, think it's okay.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[hackish 8]

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This is one thing that I don't like about the sabre 210 I fly. The toggle system does not have a very neat arrangement for stowing the extra line.

It's your rig to maintain as you choose. Get your rigger to look at the risers and see what they need. Your rigger can install whatever is needed to stow the excess brake line properly.

If it were my rig then it would already be fixed with some of the tru-lock toggles. This one is a rental and it's on loan to the DZ so there isn't much that can be done. As for what could be done I think a small loop on the back side of the risers would be sufficient.

-Michael

[wrightskyguy 1]

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Jump Shack's toggles have double snaps and a really elegant way of stowing the line through a loop on the front of the riser. I have had a few rigging customers who have had toggle fires on opening with other systems and they've all bought Jump Shack risers after looking at mine

*** You're such a homer.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[wildcard451 0]

Ok.......maybe I'm missing something here, as I am one of the people that doesn't stow my excess brake line (or sometimes do, depends on if I pack it or someone else does)...but I'm missing how exactly the excess brake line contributes to a toggle fire?

My toggles have a tab on top and pin at the bottom for stowing, and I fold the excess neatly beside the riser and place it in the rig (Mirage G3). Every time I open there it is trailing nicely in the wind, and the only thing I have to watch out for is a brake lock if I am dumb enough to reach through the loop.

Maybe it is the fact that it is 5 in the morning and I have been up for a while, but I just don't see how my trailing brake line loop can cause a the tuck tab or keeper pin to come loose.

Help a brother out here.

[flipper 0]

Had a break fire on an Icon ...rig was brand new