chrisat13000ft 0 #1 February 24, 2012 Ive just recieven my new canopy (spectre 170) and it has hard links attached to the lines. Ive not had hard links since using student kit and was just wandering what the pros and cons are or both types of link? Do i go hard or soft? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #2 February 24, 2012 First bullet: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=50 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisat13000ft 0 #3 February 24, 2012 Ah some good info in that article.. Thanks :-)Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreefdiver 0 #4 February 24, 2012 soft = stronger any other "plus" is icing on the cake ;)DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #5 February 25, 2012 softer = your slider grommets will last a lot longer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packing_jarrett 0 #6 February 25, 2012 Hard Links pros Easier and faster to install Snag resistant near infinite lifetime almost idiot proof Soft Link Facts Cheaper for the manufacture to make Have limited jump life Caused fatalities that would not have been caused by rapide links Soft Link Selling points Lower bulk Pro soft link quotes that make me want to stab my ears out "they're stronger" ...who cares? hard links are way stronger than they need to be. "easier and faster to install" - you're high! Lets race! EDIT: I use soft linksNa' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 102 #7 February 25, 2012 Quote Hard Links pros Easier and faster to install Snag resistant near infinite lifetime almost idiot proof Hard links are only easier and faster if you don't mark them to allow you to confirm they haven't loosened and don't install link covers and tack them in place. Hard links are far from idiot proof, as many have overtightened them causing cracked barrels.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #8 February 25, 2012 Quote Quote Hard Links pros Easier and faster to install Snag resistant near infinite lifetime almost idiot proof Hard links are only easier and faster if you don't mark them to allow you to confirm they haven't loosened and don't install link covers and tack them in place. Hard links are far from idiot proof, as many have overtightened them causing cracked barrels. and soft links have been single looped and not tacked...it's all depends on your definition of an idiot. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DoZ3r 0 #9 February 25, 2012 Quote "easier and faster to install" - you're high! Lets race! Where is the like buttom? If everything seems under control.. You're just not going fast enough..! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SStewart 13 #10 February 25, 2012 Quote Hard Links pros Easier and faster to install Snag resistant near infinite lifetime almost idiot proof Soft Link Facts Cheaper for the manufacture to make Have limited jump life Caused fatalities that would not have been caused by rapide links Soft Link Selling points Lower bulk Pro soft link quotes that make me want to stab my ears out "they're stronger" ...who cares? hard links are way stronger than they need to be. "easier and faster to install" - you're high! Lets race! EDIT: I use soft links +1 Jarrett pretty much nailed it. Soft links are stronger when they are new but lose strength over time and use. Rapides remain the same strength over a lifetime. Soft links have broken and caused serious problems, to be fair this could have been avoided by replacing them when they show signs of wear. Soft links are NOT easier to install, in fact compared to hard links they are kind of a pain in the ass. I use soft links on reserves because a reserve does not get jumped much if at all so not much chance of wear and tear. Also they are more comfortable on the back. I still use hard rapide mini links on my mains since they are plenty strong and easier to swap. Also they don't wear out. Wrap them with vet wrap and you won't ding your slider. (I use vet wrap with an upside down witch hat) but just the wrap will work fine if you like to pull the slider over your head. Don't over tighten the barrel and they are pretty much idiot proof. I catch incorrectly installed soft links all the time, sometimes even on reserves. Newer is not always better.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RIGGER 0 #11 February 27, 2012 PD SM-1 slinks are far better than the 3.5 oval metal links - the slinks are stronger & safer. Before replacing to slinks please check the slider grommets for being free of chips / nicks / burr surface from the metal links used. If your slier gromments are affected replace before using with slinks. Be sure your SM-1 slimks will be hand tacked as should to the main risers webbing. Enjoy the SP170 - Be Safe !!! Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,426 #12 February 27, 2012 Hi Shlomo, Quotethe slinks are stronger & safer. Some how I doubt that George Galloway of Precision would agree with you. He, apparently, has tested his Wrap-Its side by side with PD Slinks and finds the Wrap-Its stronger. And then there is the thing about being strong enough. The soft links ( whatever type ) only have to carry the loads imposed upon them; anything stronger is, in my engineering opinion, a waste of materials. And since the Wrap-Its do wrap around three times, I am thinking that they just might have better wearing/abrasion properties. YMMV, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #13 February 28, 2012 There's also the theory about relative failure modes. The theory goes that a slink (or similar) will fail, if it's going to fail, on opening from the shock load. That's a relatively speaking good time for it to fail as you have time to get your reserve out. Rapide links may fail on opening shock but leave you with a hook-like bent metal ring which still holds the lines and so passes a control check and is flown down to landing if the jumper doesn't spot the bent/broken link. The theory goes that this may then let go on finals, perhaps when a riser turn is initiated, causing you to enter into an irrecoverable malfunction at a point too low to get a reserve out. I seem to remember there might have been an example of this some years back which generated the debate on here but that might be beer/time speaking. I therefore put this out there as no more than a theory that some propose unless anyone can point to something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #14 February 28, 2012 I've heard of links bending but they always held until after landing. Most metal links have slider bumpers as well making it hard for the lines to fall off. I do remember a fatality a few years back I'm California where a soft link failed in the middle of a swoop killing the skydiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RiggerLee 61 #15 February 29, 2012 I have seen rapid links fail on at least two ocasions. Eather left open of the barrels cracked. On both ocasions the lines stayed "hooked" on the end of the link till the guy landed then fell off onto the ground. Freaked them out. Should have seen Popes face. I have also seen a slink fail. For the record it was an old daccron sewn slink and from the remaining three I think I can say that they were not built right. Outer sheath lose. He apparently did not make a habbit of colapsing his slider or pulling it bellow the links. But the point it it let go at 800 ft. As I recall that was the guy who's break lines had never been bartacked at the cascade. Main break lines pulled right out with my fingers. It was his second reserve ride of the boogie when I found it. I think he got really drunk that night. By the way. We've been doing some destructive testing on some of our components. My home made slinks, 1500 vectran with a ring, two wraps, have been breaking around 4000 lb. These are old slinks that have seen wear and abuse. It's dependent on how you load then and how... neatly they are arranged. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RIGGER 0 #16 February 29, 2012 Thanks. I know George Galloway's study & tests. The PD SM-1 slinks are better then the # 3.5 metal links came on PD mains & sit better in the riser loop. As always slinks has to be inspected during the packing process & should be repalced at reline time or sooner. I never saw a PD SM-1 (main) or SR-1 (reserve) failed - not even on hard deployments as reported by the users. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinciflies 0 #17 February 29, 2012 QuoteI do remember a fatality a few years back I'm California where a soft link failed in the middle of a swoop killing the skydiver. Hadn't that guy put over 2,000 jumps on a set of slinks? If so, a failure of maintenance rather than slink design, I would say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #18 February 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteI do remember a fatality a few years back I'm California where a soft link failed in the middle of a swoop killing the skydiver. Hadn't that guy put over 2,000 jumps on a set of slinks? If so, a failure of maintenance rather than slink design, I would say. Koji did not die, he was paralyzed. Slinks were estimeted to have 3,000 jumps on them, IIRC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Born2Late 0 #19 February 29, 2012 QuoteThere's also the theory about relative failure modes. The theory goes that a slink (or similar) will fail, if it's going to fail, on opening from the shock load. That's a relatively speaking good time for it to fail as you have time to get your reserve out. Rapide links may fail on opening shock but leave you with a hook-like bent metal ring which still holds the lines and so passes a control check and is flown down to landing if the jumper doesn't spot the bent/broken link. The theory goes that this may then let go on finals, perhaps when a riser turn is initiated, causing you to enter into an irrecoverable malfunction at a point too low to get a reserve out. I seem to remember there might have been an example of this some years back which generated the debate on here but that might be beer/time speaking. I therefore put this out there as no more than a theory that some propose unless anyone can point to something. What about the TI who was left paralyzed last year? A riser was inverted (? = twisted around). Usually, those break the little white loop on opening shock. That one held until they were at four hundred feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #20 February 29, 2012 Quote Quote Quote I do remember a fatality a few years back I'm California where a soft link failed in the middle of a swoop killing the skydiver. Hadn't that guy put over 2,000 jumps on a set of slinks? If so, a failure of maintenance rather than slink design, I would say. Koji did not die, he was paralyzed. Slinks were estimeted to have 3,000 jumps on them, IIRC. 3000? Jumps? Every rigger wants to replace them along the line-set. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RIGGER 0 #21 February 29, 2012 Quote Every rigger wants to replace them along the line-set. Yes, soft links from any brand must be replaced at reline time or sooner if needed - the soft links are exposed to slider impact during deployment which might "eat" the spectra line. When I reline a main canopy the kit includes: Mfg. line set kit, new soft links (not for Tandem or Student mains) Line Trim chart. The soft links like any link must be inspected at packing process. Saving $30 might cost you big time. Be Safe !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #22 February 29, 2012 Quote Quote Every rigger wants to replace them along the line-set. Yes, soft links from any brand must be replaced at reline time - the soft links are exposed to slider impact during deployment which might "eat" the spectra line. When I reline a main canopy the kit includes: Mfg. line set kit, new soft links (not for Tandem or Student mains) Line Trim chart. The soft links like any link must be inspected at packing process. Saving $30 might cost you big time. Be Safe !!! I don't have any problem to replace them on wear basis..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #23 February 29, 2012 QuoteWhen I reline a main canopy the kit includes: Mfg. line set kit, new soft links (not for Tandem or Student mains) Line Trim chart. Yes, Slinks are not compatibile with Dacron lined Tandem and Student canopies: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3326440;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC Also, from PD: "This is one of the reasons we don't recommend Slinks with tandems and student canopies. Typically those canopies are big with long lines, send the slider down quickly, and the grommets can cause this type of situation. There is very little known usage with typical sport gear in this configuration of Dacron lines and Slinks. I do know of some people doing this without any issues, but I can certainly understand how it could happen." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlindBrick 0 #24 February 29, 2012 I'm running SR-1's without issue on a 1050 lb Vectran lineset on my main which regularly sees 155 mph+ deployments with no issues. I run Wrap-it's on my reserve because that's what it came with and they have served me just fine on multiple reserve rides. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #25 February 29, 2012 I recall PD saying that their Reserve Slinks can tak 70G load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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Coreefdiver 0 #4 February 24, 2012 soft = stronger any other "plus" is icing on the cake ;)DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #5 February 25, 2012 softer = your slider grommets will last a lot longer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packing_jarrett 0 #6 February 25, 2012 Hard Links pros Easier and faster to install Snag resistant near infinite lifetime almost idiot proof Soft Link Facts Cheaper for the manufacture to make Have limited jump life Caused fatalities that would not have been caused by rapide links Soft Link Selling points Lower bulk Pro soft link quotes that make me want to stab my ears out "they're stronger" ...who cares? hard links are way stronger than they need to be. "easier and faster to install" - you're high! Lets race! EDIT: I use soft linksNa' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #7 February 25, 2012 Quote Hard Links pros Easier and faster to install Snag resistant near infinite lifetime almost idiot proof Hard links are only easier and faster if you don't mark them to allow you to confirm they haven't loosened and don't install link covers and tack them in place. Hard links are far from idiot proof, as many have overtightened them causing cracked barrels.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #8 February 25, 2012 Quote Quote Hard Links pros Easier and faster to install Snag resistant near infinite lifetime almost idiot proof Hard links are only easier and faster if you don't mark them to allow you to confirm they haven't loosened and don't install link covers and tack them in place. Hard links are far from idiot proof, as many have overtightened them causing cracked barrels. and soft links have been single looped and not tacked...it's all depends on your definition of an idiot. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DoZ3r 0 #9 February 25, 2012 Quote "easier and faster to install" - you're high! Lets race! Where is the like buttom? If everything seems under control.. You're just not going fast enough..! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #10 February 25, 2012 Quote Hard Links pros Easier and faster to install Snag resistant near infinite lifetime almost idiot proof Soft Link Facts Cheaper for the manufacture to make Have limited jump life Caused fatalities that would not have been caused by rapide links Soft Link Selling points Lower bulk Pro soft link quotes that make me want to stab my ears out "they're stronger" ...who cares? hard links are way stronger than they need to be. "easier and faster to install" - you're high! Lets race! EDIT: I use soft links +1 Jarrett pretty much nailed it. Soft links are stronger when they are new but lose strength over time and use. Rapides remain the same strength over a lifetime. Soft links have broken and caused serious problems, to be fair this could have been avoided by replacing them when they show signs of wear. Soft links are NOT easier to install, in fact compared to hard links they are kind of a pain in the ass. I use soft links on reserves because a reserve does not get jumped much if at all so not much chance of wear and tear. Also they are more comfortable on the back. I still use hard rapide mini links on my mains since they are plenty strong and easier to swap. Also they don't wear out. Wrap them with vet wrap and you won't ding your slider. (I use vet wrap with an upside down witch hat) but just the wrap will work fine if you like to pull the slider over your head. Don't over tighten the barrel and they are pretty much idiot proof. I catch incorrectly installed soft links all the time, sometimes even on reserves. Newer is not always better.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #11 February 27, 2012 PD SM-1 slinks are far better than the 3.5 oval metal links - the slinks are stronger & safer. Before replacing to slinks please check the slider grommets for being free of chips / nicks / burr surface from the metal links used. If your slier gromments are affected replace before using with slinks. Be sure your SM-1 slimks will be hand tacked as should to the main risers webbing. Enjoy the SP170 - Be Safe !!! Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,426 #12 February 27, 2012 Hi Shlomo, Quotethe slinks are stronger & safer. Some how I doubt that George Galloway of Precision would agree with you. He, apparently, has tested his Wrap-Its side by side with PD Slinks and finds the Wrap-Its stronger. And then there is the thing about being strong enough. The soft links ( whatever type ) only have to carry the loads imposed upon them; anything stronger is, in my engineering opinion, a waste of materials. And since the Wrap-Its do wrap around three times, I am thinking that they just might have better wearing/abrasion properties. YMMV, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #13 February 28, 2012 There's also the theory about relative failure modes. The theory goes that a slink (or similar) will fail, if it's going to fail, on opening from the shock load. That's a relatively speaking good time for it to fail as you have time to get your reserve out. Rapide links may fail on opening shock but leave you with a hook-like bent metal ring which still holds the lines and so passes a control check and is flown down to landing if the jumper doesn't spot the bent/broken link. The theory goes that this may then let go on finals, perhaps when a riser turn is initiated, causing you to enter into an irrecoverable malfunction at a point too low to get a reserve out. I seem to remember there might have been an example of this some years back which generated the debate on here but that might be beer/time speaking. I therefore put this out there as no more than a theory that some propose unless anyone can point to something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #14 February 28, 2012 I've heard of links bending but they always held until after landing. Most metal links have slider bumpers as well making it hard for the lines to fall off. I do remember a fatality a few years back I'm California where a soft link failed in the middle of a swoop killing the skydiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #15 February 29, 2012 I have seen rapid links fail on at least two ocasions. Eather left open of the barrels cracked. On both ocasions the lines stayed "hooked" on the end of the link till the guy landed then fell off onto the ground. Freaked them out. Should have seen Popes face. I have also seen a slink fail. For the record it was an old daccron sewn slink and from the remaining three I think I can say that they were not built right. Outer sheath lose. He apparently did not make a habbit of colapsing his slider or pulling it bellow the links. But the point it it let go at 800 ft. As I recall that was the guy who's break lines had never been bartacked at the cascade. Main break lines pulled right out with my fingers. It was his second reserve ride of the boogie when I found it. I think he got really drunk that night. By the way. We've been doing some destructive testing on some of our components. My home made slinks, 1500 vectran with a ring, two wraps, have been breaking around 4000 lb. These are old slinks that have seen wear and abuse. It's dependent on how you load then and how... neatly they are arranged. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #16 February 29, 2012 Thanks. I know George Galloway's study & tests. The PD SM-1 slinks are better then the # 3.5 metal links came on PD mains & sit better in the riser loop. As always slinks has to be inspected during the packing process & should be repalced at reline time or sooner. I never saw a PD SM-1 (main) or SR-1 (reserve) failed - not even on hard deployments as reported by the users. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #17 February 29, 2012 QuoteI do remember a fatality a few years back I'm California where a soft link failed in the middle of a swoop killing the skydiver. Hadn't that guy put over 2,000 jumps on a set of slinks? If so, a failure of maintenance rather than slink design, I would say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #18 February 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteI do remember a fatality a few years back I'm California where a soft link failed in the middle of a swoop killing the skydiver. Hadn't that guy put over 2,000 jumps on a set of slinks? If so, a failure of maintenance rather than slink design, I would say. Koji did not die, he was paralyzed. Slinks were estimeted to have 3,000 jumps on them, IIRC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Born2Late 0 #19 February 29, 2012 QuoteThere's also the theory about relative failure modes. The theory goes that a slink (or similar) will fail, if it's going to fail, on opening from the shock load. That's a relatively speaking good time for it to fail as you have time to get your reserve out. Rapide links may fail on opening shock but leave you with a hook-like bent metal ring which still holds the lines and so passes a control check and is flown down to landing if the jumper doesn't spot the bent/broken link. The theory goes that this may then let go on finals, perhaps when a riser turn is initiated, causing you to enter into an irrecoverable malfunction at a point too low to get a reserve out. I seem to remember there might have been an example of this some years back which generated the debate on here but that might be beer/time speaking. I therefore put this out there as no more than a theory that some propose unless anyone can point to something. What about the TI who was left paralyzed last year? A riser was inverted (? = twisted around). Usually, those break the little white loop on opening shock. That one held until they were at four hundred feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #20 February 29, 2012 Quote Quote Quote I do remember a fatality a few years back I'm California where a soft link failed in the middle of a swoop killing the skydiver. Hadn't that guy put over 2,000 jumps on a set of slinks? If so, a failure of maintenance rather than slink design, I would say. Koji did not die, he was paralyzed. Slinks were estimeted to have 3,000 jumps on them, IIRC. 3000? Jumps? Every rigger wants to replace them along the line-set. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #21 February 29, 2012 Quote Every rigger wants to replace them along the line-set. Yes, soft links from any brand must be replaced at reline time or sooner if needed - the soft links are exposed to slider impact during deployment which might "eat" the spectra line. When I reline a main canopy the kit includes: Mfg. line set kit, new soft links (not for Tandem or Student mains) Line Trim chart. The soft links like any link must be inspected at packing process. Saving $30 might cost you big time. Be Safe !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #22 February 29, 2012 Quote Quote Every rigger wants to replace them along the line-set. Yes, soft links from any brand must be replaced at reline time - the soft links are exposed to slider impact during deployment which might "eat" the spectra line. When I reline a main canopy the kit includes: Mfg. line set kit, new soft links (not for Tandem or Student mains) Line Trim chart. The soft links like any link must be inspected at packing process. Saving $30 might cost you big time. Be Safe !!! I don't have any problem to replace them on wear basis..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #23 February 29, 2012 QuoteWhen I reline a main canopy the kit includes: Mfg. line set kit, new soft links (not for Tandem or Student mains) Line Trim chart. Yes, Slinks are not compatibile with Dacron lined Tandem and Student canopies: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3326440;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC Also, from PD: "This is one of the reasons we don't recommend Slinks with tandems and student canopies. Typically those canopies are big with long lines, send the slider down quickly, and the grommets can cause this type of situation. There is very little known usage with typical sport gear in this configuration of Dacron lines and Slinks. I do know of some people doing this without any issues, but I can certainly understand how it could happen." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #24 February 29, 2012 I'm running SR-1's without issue on a 1050 lb Vectran lineset on my main which regularly sees 155 mph+ deployments with no issues. I run Wrap-it's on my reserve because that's what it came with and they have served me just fine on multiple reserve rides. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #25 February 29, 2012 I recall PD saying that their Reserve Slinks can tak 70G load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
