peckerhead 0 #1 May 15, 2003 Ok, so today I am ordering a new rig from Call Ralph. I am getting an infinity with a 150 tempo and a 150 Tri. I am thinking about buying my first AAD and I have a real serious mental issue..... I have been air diving for 22 years, almost 2000 jumps, I have not had a cutaway since 1988 (8 reserve rides in the 80's) I always wear a helmet, never pull low , and I am in good health...... I mostly jump at a small cessna drop zone but, once in awhile I go to boogies and get on big ways. I hate gadgets! Beepers, rsls, aads, altimeters, etc. I have always felt they were a crutch for scaredy-cats with bad eyesight, people with no sense of time and altitude. BUT..... Now I am a skydiver looking at forty, I have two small kids and I find myself thinking "What if" What if I do everything right and some dork takes me out? What if I have a medical emergency in freefall? What if the damn thing fires when I am sitting in the crotch of a 182? What if the damn thing fires and I have two canopies out? What if it saves my life? What if it kills me? Money is not the issue in any way. More frequent repacks are not the issue, those things don't EVEN matter..... I kinda feel like I am throwing in the towell if I get one. It is like I am saying "I am too old and stupid to skydive anymore so I better get a gadget to save my ass".... I invite your comments.. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 May 15, 2003 This has been hotly debated many times... I jumped for about 300 jumps with out an AAD. I coudln't afford one. I have one now (thanks dad) and am VERY glad I have it. You never know when something out of your control happens to you.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SLOfreefall 0 #3 May 15, 2003 I recently picked up a complete rig, minus AAD. At this point, money is the only thing preventing me from getting one. I have full intentions of purchasing one as soon as funds become available. The way I see it, it's not a crutch until you're leaning on it, and then I wouldn't want it any other way! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ronnie 0 #4 May 15, 2003 Do you carry health, life, auto, fire, or home insurances? Isn't a helmet a gadget? How are you throwing in the towel if you buy one? Will you lose a macho status? I don't get it. Why not have one? Seems like cheap life insurance to me! At this point, it is not about you, it is about your kids. Ronnie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #5 May 15, 2003 When and where I started jumping in 1990 only students and wierdos had AAD's. So it took me 12 years to finally get one. I say I have it in case someone else screws up and I get knocked out. Really I have it in case I screw up. There's a trade off. It could injure or kill me. Just as I accepted the risks of jumping without one, I decided to accept the risks of jumping with one. Personal choice. Which set of risks are you more comfortable with? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 37 #6 May 15, 2003 QuoteI have two small kids and I find myself thinking "What if" That right there would be good enough reason for me. There's a skydiver in Deland that got paralyzed on a freefly jump a few weeks ago. He was conscious but unable to pull because of the trauma to his spine in the collision. He would presumably be dead now if it wasn't for the Cypres that was on his rig.She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #7 May 15, 2003 I'm from the olden days too, but when I came back to the sport, i got one when I got gear (I jumped my old gear until then). It was a nice add-on, but I'd've bought gear without it. It's not like deciding between getting training wheels on a bike and not getting them. It's more like homeowner's insurance. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #8 May 15, 2003 QuoteI am thinking about buying my first AAD and I have a real serious mental issue..... I have been air diving for 22 years, almost 2000 jumps, I have not had a cutaway since 1988 (8 reserve rides in the 80's) I always wear a helmet, never pull low , and I am in good health...... I mostly jump at a small cessna drop zone but, once in awhile I go to boogies and get on big ways. I hate gadgets! Beepers, rsls, aads, altimeters, etc. I have always felt they were a crutch for scaredy-cats with bad eyesight, people with no sense of time and altitude. I like the way you think...Its your duty to pull, not some cool gagets. QuoteNow I am a skydiver looking at forty, I have two small kids and I find myself thinking "What if" Damn fine reason to get one. QuoteWhat if I do everything right and some dork takes me out? Another Damn good reason to have one. However I think most people get one to save their ass if they do something stupid...Not that it is not a good reason, I just wish more people would be honest about that part. QuoteWhat if I have a medical emergency in freefall? Bad reason...If you think you might have a medical need...Well then you should ground yourself. If you are talking about the off chance that you have one just pop up...Good reason to get one. QuoteWhat if the damn thing fires when I am sitting in the crotch of a 182? Unlikley with modern AAD's QuoteWhat if the damn thing fires and I have two canopies out? Don't pull low. If it does happen deal with it, just like any other situation that can come up in this sport. QuoteWhat if it saves my life? Look to see if you should continue jumping...Realize that you should have been dead. QuoteWhat if it kills me? Shit happens...Not very likley with a modern AAD. QuoteI kinda feel like I am throwing in the towell if I get one. It is like I am saying "I am too old and stupid to skydive anymore so I better get a gadget to save my ass".... Not the case...You are just stacking the odds in your favor. I would say get one..Act like you don't have one...Never DEPEND on the damn thing. Don't do something with it that you would not do without it thinking that its OK cause you have one. I have one....I don't NEED it..I did 600 jumps without one and only got one due to a sponsorship....When it dies, I will probley get another one..But I WILL jump until I can get another one. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #9 May 15, 2003 I'm glad you're looking at this! A lot of people buy AAD's just because it makes them feel better and/or everyone else is doing it. The facts are that you will more likely experience a dual deployment due to pulling low with an AAD than you are likely to be saved by it due to unconsciousness. Fortunately, dual deployments are quite survivable as long as you're prepared for them. When I started skydiving, AAD's were black death. You never knew when a Sentinel was going to fire some guy's reserve at 4000 feet. People would refuse to jump with jumpers who used AAD's. (Historical note - this is why the cypres was designed to be completely hidden inside the rig.) The Cypres is the first AAD that I think is much more likely to save you than harm you. I have two rigs; I have a cypres in one of them. I'd have no problem jumping either one for most jumps. For dense big-ways or AFF I try to use an AAD 100% of the time due to the increased risk of collision or getting kicked - but if one's not available I will do without. Overall if you can afford it I'd say get one; they are a good insurance policy as long as you don't rely on it (and from your post it sounds like there's little chance of that.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #10 May 15, 2003 I just want to chime in as a student looking up to an old timer. It doesn't make you a wuss to care about your family. The CYPRES is not designed to be a crutch, but more of a reserve reserve. I think the statistics show that it very rarely kills people and very often saves them, especially the CYPRES. Get it and protect your family. All of us low timers will still be watching you nail that target with gaping mouths. And don't worry pops, you're not old -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazide 0 #11 May 15, 2003 Sounds like you already know what you should be doing if you are asking yourself those questions. I have only been skydiving about 2 1/2 years now, but have a lot of the same opinions as you do when it comes to extra gadgets (over half my jumps have been on rigs without a cypres/rsl, etc) However, I just got one put in my rig, and won't have any problem jumping with it. Want to know why? Because I look at it the same way I look at an airbag. It is just a device that, chances are, will do more good than bad in the unlikely event that the sh*t really hits the fan, and is relativly unlikely to kill/injure me during normal activities. I figure the small decrease in the risk of me bouncing is worth the small $$ amount (yes it is pretty small compared to all the other skydiving toys out there) that it costs. The reason why I am putting it in now instead of later is both a combination of finances and fortune - reserve repack time came up, and I realized how much it would hurt those I love if I bounced. Changed the whole risk/reward thing enough to prompt me to get it. *shrugs* Does it mean I rely on it? heh not likely. I have and will continue to jump without a cypres when one isn't conveniently available for the same reason I would drive someones car without airbags when mine wasn't convenient. If you went up and decided you couldn't jump anymore without a Cypres then yes, I think you are throwing in the towel. But if you decided you wanted one when you jump then unless you have some mitigating factor, I think you are making a good decision. Damn that was long winded Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #12 May 15, 2003 QuoteThe CYPRES is not designed to be a crutch But all to often it is USED as one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #13 May 15, 2003 Quote I would say get one..Act like you don't have one...Never DEPEND on the damn thing. Don't do something with it that you would not do without it thinking that its OK cause you have one. Hear, hear. I have a Cypres, but I don't use it as a factor in my jumps - I always strive to keep my wits about me and depend upon myself. However, if it all goes South, an AAD can give you a chance you might otherwise not have had, sort of like the ejection seat on a fighter jet. If you're a pilot and you're in Delta Sierra ("deep sh**"), do you really want to pull the "Loud Handle"? Of course not, but it's a comfort to know it's there if you're out of options, and the Earth is preparing to rise up and smite thee.Case in point. Two years ago I saw a skydiver suffer a heart attack and lose consciousness in freefall (KDFC 2001 Lodi). His Cypres fired and he landed in one piece. He was still alive when they put him on the lifeflight to Davis. He didn't make it anyway because of the heart attack, but the Cypres gave him a fighting chance to live. In my opinion, it might save you...on the other hand, it might not, and is therefore not to be relied upon in your skydive planning. An AAD is a slim chance, but it is better than no chance at all."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #14 May 15, 2003 QuoteIt doesn't make you a wuss to care about your family Note that this statement is not commutative. Not having a Cypres does not mean that you don't care about your family. For that matter, having one doesn't really quantify how much you do. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #15 May 15, 2003 Thanks for that one, My mom thinks if I "REALLY" cared about my family I would not jump at all..... It is because I do that I ask for input. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #16 May 15, 2003 You have about 2,000 jumps my friend. At that sort of number, low timers, newbies, and even aspiring coaches and instructors are going to look at you in a leadership role. Even if you may not feel that an AAD is a wise purchase, wouldn't it be a good idea to set an example to people with less experience. You have the experience, share the knowledge.............. sds edited because i can't spell or even write in complete sentences =========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #17 May 15, 2003 Quote My mom thinks if I "REALLY" cared about my family I would not jump at all..... i think we all get that from our families AAD's are a must at my DZ and when i started out most people had one anyway. so to me its just a part of the whole rig. a few people said "i have one in case someone screws up" , but i go with Lisa, i have one in case I screw up... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #18 May 15, 2003 QuoteEven if you may not feel that an AAD is a wise purchase, wouldn't it be a good idea to set an example to people with less experience. If that's the case then every experienced jumper who is looked up to in a leadership role should be flying big slow canopies and not doing high performance landings in front of low timers and newbies... Besides, some people might think someone NOT having an AAD is setting a good example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #19 May 15, 2003 QuoteEven if you may not feel that an AAD is a wise purchase, wouldn't it be a good idea to set an example to people with less experience. You have the experience, share the knowledge.............. What if his example is to be responsable for pulling for yourself? Don't take unneeded chances? Don't rely on "Gadgets" to save you from stupidity? I think he HAS shown a good example by living this long and not becomming dependent on toys. A lot of young jumpers could learn from him. They are cool, I say have an AAD. But NEVER rely on one. They do fail. The safest skydiver is one that relys only on himself and his friends... Why is it I get SO much flack when I try to point out how a lowtimer is under to fast a canopy, but to tell someone to get an AAD is cool? Simple answer... gear dependence....A large number of jumpers require an AAD to jump. Why? What happened to trusting yourself? Get an AAD because it is better to have it and not need it...Than to bounce. But if you REQUIRE one to jump...You might want to rethink the whole skydiving issue. I have one..Incase I screw up. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozthebum 0 #20 May 15, 2003 Quote Quote My mom thinks if I "REALLY" cared about my family I would not jump at all..... i think we all get that from our families Quote I'm lucky..my Mom thinks, that as long as I'm happy juming, then that is all that matters, I'll never hear ANY critisism (sp) from her. Anyway, about the Cypres, IMHO, I vote for what almost everyone else seems to say...do it for you kids, family, cause you like a second chance (if you didn't want a second chance why get a rig with a reserve?),........ just in case, but stilll jump like you don't have one. If money is not an object, then why the hell not? right? Edited to add: PS. God watches out for drunks and fools...luckly I'm both, but not everyone is, so watch out for yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #21 May 15, 2003 Quote If money is not an object, then why the hell not? right? i'm pretty sure the reason not to have one is not money, (not including people who are saving up for one) as i see it there are people who simply think it adds an unneeded risk of two out, as in another thing you have no control of. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #22 May 15, 2003 Yes, absolutely. I was just making sure you don't somehow connect the two. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #23 May 16, 2003 I don't have one, don't feel as though I need or want one, but I may change my mind in the future. Check this link out: http://www.vigil.aero/Home.html A new AAD on the market. No maintenence. No max life. Looks alot like a CYPRES, and the price, well, check it out. Free cutter replacement after a save too.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zinger 0 #24 May 16, 2003 Dude do what ever makes you feel good/safe. But I'll tell ya one thing, I have been jumping for 20 years and the nearest to death I ever came was due to a premature cypress fire at 2,000 feet, 2 out, started to tangle, quick moves to counter tangle saved my life and nothing else, Make your own choice but don't count on it being the right one, Stay alert and you might save your own life. Skydiving is dangerous, It is a sport that kills, If you can't except that then you need to find the bowling lanes. There is no sure-safe way. Take the chances or find another sport. Period. ------Have a good one!-------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #25 May 16, 2003 QuoteA new AAD on the market. No maintenence. No max life. Looks alot like a CYPRES, and the price, well, check it out. Free cutter replacement after a save too. _ The only thing I will say about this is....Never be the first kid on the block with a new toy....You will live longer that way. Crossfire Nova Reflex Micro Raven Astra I am sure there are MANY more examples of gear that was dangerous, or just never lived up to the hype. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
