Gawain 0
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Zenister 0
QuoteQuotetraining and education are the key elements, anything else (including regulation) are bandaids trying to address the effects not the causes of the problem
Would you not put a band aid on a deep wound until you could get to someone who could stitch it up for you? Or would you just let it bleed all over the place until you got there?
i dont think the number of deaths (as tragic as each one is) that have occured so far constitute a "deep wound" in terms of the total number of people participating.
regulation at the levels discussed so far isnt even a bandaid its closer to an amputation before trying to save the hand by any other means..
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
skybytch 273
Quoteuntil comments like this
Looked like a simple statement to me. Sorry if this offends you, but a few hundred jumps and a couple years in the sport really isn't all that much in the way of experience. Hell, my measly 900 jumps and 13 years in the sport ain't much either compared to some people I know.
And still no one has answered my question. How long does it take someone who can afford it to do 100 jumps? Why is it such a big deal that they might have to wait until they've done them to downsize? 100 jumps on one canopy size/type ain't shit if you aren't spending every one of those jumps seriously working on canopy control. And how many of us can say that we spend even ONE out of a hundred jumps seriously working on canopy control?
Joyner 0
QuoteQuoteperhaps everyone who is really so frightened of life should just stay in their house and be safe??
Grow in the sport. Care for someone other than yourself.
Ron
I couldn't agree with you more Ron!
I can't believe that in such a small community that we are, some people care so little for the person sitting next to them in the plane.
Some people are so caught up in exercising their rights, that they don't realize that it's the exercising of that right that keeps them captive. Keep skydiving completely without rules, wait and see how many friends you loose in the process! And then come back and tell me it was all worth it!
skybytch 273
Quotei dont think the number of deaths (as tragic as each one is) that have occured so far constitute a "deep wound" in terms of the total number of people participating.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. When one person dies from the same exact thing that several others have died from in the past - for me that's one too many.
Quoteregulation at the levels discussed so far isnt even a bandaid its closer to an amputation before trying to save the hand by any other means
Amputation would be saying no one can jump higher wingloadings - period. What has been proposed is that a new jumper will have to get some experience (i.e. time under canopy, i.e. jumps) before they can move down to a faster canopy. And again I ask - what's the freakin' hurry?
Zenister 0
your absolutely right..i dont have much experience in this sport only way to get that is time..
knowledge and training arent quite the same animals however.
but i guess since i dont have enough laps around the sun or jumps i cant talk to some people...thats what prompted the "skygod" its a pretty simple statement too.
what it seems is being missed is I am all for a requirement to demonstrate ABILITY before being allowed to progress. which is a completely different thing that a simple jump number scale..
i dont care if you have 7000 jumps..if your not standing up your spectre 150@1.1 consistently do you have any business jumping a Velocity 88@1.8??
having a supervised canopy control/training program in place would be much more effective at preventing stupid mistakes and incidents at all ability levels.
knowledge and training arent quite the same animals however.
but i guess since i dont have enough laps around the sun or jumps i cant talk to some people...thats what prompted the "skygod" its a pretty simple statement too.
what it seems is being missed is I am all for a requirement to demonstrate ABILITY before being allowed to progress. which is a completely different thing that a simple jump number scale..
i dont care if you have 7000 jumps..if your not standing up your spectre 150@1.1 consistently do you have any business jumping a Velocity 88@1.8??
having a supervised canopy control/training program in place would be much more effective at preventing stupid mistakes and incidents at all ability levels.
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
QuoteAnd how many of us can say that we spend even ONE out of a hundred jumps seriously working on canopy control?
I've spent a whole lot more then 1 per 100 jumps on canopy control, but that's just because I enjoy it and want to learn as much as I can. Never mind that I really enjoy high performance landings...I guess my point is, a blanket rule will screw some people, but save some people's ass for sure.
You know, people still die under canopies loaded at 1.0:1, it happens unfortunatly.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
Joyner 0
Quote
I have two parachutes and have been trained with approved BSR and SIM guidelines from USPA. Reasonable action has been taken. This training will not protect me, or anyone from either honest or ego driven miscalculations in the air or on landing
Do you seriously feel that this training prepares the Joe Blow jumper to jump a hp elliptical right of student status?
QuoteThis isn't a smug 270 jump wonder here disagreeing with you because it's "my right to choose". I don't do hook turns, I still fly a Triathlon 160 and I fly a conservative pattern and still look with awe and the master pilots carving their way across the grass or pond. I'm concentrating on my free-fall skills for RW. There 's a guy whose mission is to carve like no tomorrow and makes 20 hop-n-pops a day to work solely on canopy control. He may be ready at 270 jumps to go to an elliptical...I don't know, I'm not him. His coaches may have a different opinion. He may ask, he may not. If he's really into it, he (or she) will allow himself to be mentored in the sport.
You sound a lot like me in that sense. Maybe we both listened and learned!? But do we stop there? Just because there will allways be others that will refuse to listen, lie cheat and steal their way into smaller cannopies, is that reason enough just to say "I know better, let Joe Blow next to me do what ever he wants"? As others have said! Grow in the sport (as a person I'd say), care about others around you!
skybytch 273
Quotewhat it seems is being missed is I am all for a requirement to demonstrate ABILITY before being allowed to progress. which is a completely different thing that a simple jump number scale..
I haven't missed that at all. It's a great idea - not perfect (I don't think there is an answer to this that will be perfect for every jumper) but logical. In the long term it would do much to reduce the number of low timers being injured or killed under canopies that are too fast/aggressive for them when shit happens.
The problem is that it isn't workable nationwide without a lot of people having to get additional training. It's not workable nationwide without a standardized syllabus to teach from. It's not workable nationwide without recognized "landmarks" to achieve as the jumper progresses. It's not workable nationwide until EVERY dz is on board - did I mention the ISP which is still not being used by even every USPA group member dz?
Brian Germain's suggestion is workable nationwide. It would require no additional training for non-swooper DZO's/instructors/S&TA's to implement. It would keep ego driven 50 jump wonders from even trying to buy canopies they'd load at 1.8 while giving them and their instructors/coaches/DZO's/S&TA's/gear dealers a framework of "reasonable" canopy sizes for them to learn on.
It would have kept several people I know from getting the canopy that they eventually fucked themselves up under - fuck ups that would likely have been survivable had they been flying a canopy more realistic for their experience/ability level.
Gawain 0
QuoteYou sound a lot like me in that sense. Maybe we both listened and learned!? But do we stop there? Just because there will allways be others that will refuse to listen, lie cheat and steal their way into smaller cannopies, is that reason enough just to say "I know better, let Joe Blow next to me do what ever he wants"? As others have said! Grow in the sport (as a person I'd say), care about others around you!
It's not that I don't care. It's that I don't know! Unless I'm engaged with someone's progression from beginning to current, then there is only so much insight I can offer. If a newbie cranks out 100 jumps in 3 months, then it is likely they will be far more along in their skills than someone with 100 jumps over 12 months.
Then it depends on what/when someone has been flying their canopy. Someone with 100 hop-n-pops, plus 100 "regular" jumps has arguably more canopy time than a "regular" jumper with 200 jumps.
Finally, even if I know that someone is placing themselves at risk, I can admonish them to change their behavior. I can even talk to the S&TA. The bottom line is whether that individual chooses to listen or not. Again, you can't regulate thinking.
I was coaching in a first jump course about a month ago. Me and the AFF Instr. were teaching two students. We went through the excersises and did our best to ensure proper understanding of what/why we were instructing, etc. Following the SIM of course.
When the two went up for their AFF I, one rocked the house and kicked ass. The other one fared far less positively. Two examples of how proper planning, good training can still result in a pure dicotomy of results.
It's not that I don't care. It is that when it comes down to it, I have to pull, I have to do my own canopy control check, I have to fly it, I have to land it. Maybe it is simplistic. I don't have a cure-all answser, but I know enough to feel confident that "required" legislation and regulation is definitely not the answer.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Ron 10
Quoteok mighty skygod. first time i've ever had to use that phrase in that manner.
Comming from someone with his head so far up his own ass...I'll take that as a complement.
Try to look outside your own ass.
And you STILL HAVE NOT OFFERD ANY SOLUTION EXCEPT TO BITCH AN BELLY ACHE TO THOSE WHO ARE TRYING...
It is easy to bitch...much harder to take an active roll...Which you have avioded at evry chance when any of us have asked.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Remster 30
mmm.. the smelll of a metal shackles... I say 3 or 4 more posts before a lock? any other guesses?
Remster
Ron 10
well at least I didn't start this one
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
skybytch 273
Doesn't matter who starts it. The rules are the rules.
I have two parachutes and have been trained with approved BSR and SIM guidelines from USPA. Reasonable action has been taken. This training will not protect me, or anyone from either honest or ego driven miscalculations in the air or on landing.
In my observation, most of the low-jumpers that get hurt were told by their fellows, other coaches...in some cases they were begged to reconsider choices they were making. There's one thread in the incidents forum where someone had noted after they visited an injured friend, that they really didn't think they would get hurt. You can't regulate thinking.
Now, that doesn't make sense. If mistakes are not made, there is no benchmark to progress from. This is the story of the ages of mankind, and there is not a single incident, in any industry sector where progress hasn't been made as result of "learning from mistakes".
I have learned from others actions, and have taken action myself. I cannot control the actions of another individual that either can't or won't do the same thing, and fortunately, it's not your job either.
Requirements in the US, that is the case if it's a USPA drop zone. Non-USPA DZs have their own standards of training, operation, etc. I did go through TRAINING. The training was excellent. Training prepares one for avoiding incidents, it doesn't make one immune.
It's up to the DZ and how the DZ chooses to operate. If they're a USPA DZ, that guy ain't jumping. Non-USPA DZs may have a different take, but again, your example doesn't really touch on the premise of your original post.
Let's say I'm a guy with 75 jumps, been jumping a Spectre 170 (exit weight 200 lbs). I have 30 jumps on the Spectre and I'm bored. I want something more responsive, more fun, faster, smaller, easier to pack, ad infinitum. How many different ways can I go to accomplish this goal? Too many to count.
Canopy manufacturers already take reasonable precautions IIRC: Icarus will not sell a VX to someone who happens to mention they have 100 jumps (I may be wrong here, someone here knows I'm sure).
If I lie cheat and steal my way into getting a high-performance canopy, no amount of regulation is going to stop me. It's like gun control. You think a waiting period here in California will really stop me from getting one tonight if I really want one?
This isn't a smug 270 jump wonder here disagreeing with you because it's "my right to choose". I don't do hook turns, I still fly a Triathlon 160 and I fly a conservative pattern and still look with awe and the master pilots carving their way across the grass or pond. I'm concentrating on my free-fall skills for RW. There 's a guy whose mission is to carve like no tomorrow and makes 20 hop-n-pops a day to work solely on canopy control. He may be ready at 270 jumps to go to an elliptical...I don't know, I'm not him. His coaches may have a different opinion. He may ask, he may not. If he's really into it, he (or she) will allow himself to be mentored in the sport.
I know about 1,000,000 drivers on the road that passed a test and if I was in charge, they'd be on the bus. That is not reality however, and that is with a fair amount of local and federal regulation.
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
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