buba07 0 #1 September 11, 2007 Hi, I'm just 6 jumps into this ace sport (RAPS). Recently I posted aout landing on concrete two jumps ago. Last weekend I got another jump in and was told to go up without a radio for the first time. I was nerous (because of last jump) but did it. On the way down I was really determined just to hit grass! Coming down to about 300 I needed to turn into wind and towards the DZ. However I was worried about making a late turn too low down. I carried on and just aimed for a nice bit of grass. When is it too late to turn on a student canopy?Thanks Freefallphil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #2 September 11, 2007 At what altitude does your instructors think it is too low to safely complete a turn? They are the ones who know your gear and ability. Did you ask them?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #3 September 11, 2007 You may want to ask them to teach you about flat turns, braked turns, half turns and flare turns. Given the situation and your expertise, you did the right thing. Good on you.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buba07 0 #4 September 11, 2007 Hi, Thanks for replies and support. My instructor said that it would be fine for me to do half turns as low as 50 feet. I just remember seeing a poster warning of the hazards of late turns and it stuck in my head. I thought that if you do a late sharp turn you would basically nose dive? Is that right? I will go over this with my instructors again (who are great). ThanksThanks Freefallphil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #5 September 11, 2007 QuoteI just remember seeing a poster warning of the hazards of late turns and it stuck in my head. this is exactly why students should not get advice online...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #6 September 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteI just remember seeing a poster warning of the hazards of late turns and it stuck in my head. this is exactly why students should not get advice online... Lets just say that again. I wish students would stop taking advice from these forums and I wish people would stop giving advice to them. It's going to get someone hurt.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mlbolon 0 #7 September 11, 2007 I can relate to this. Not that I am remotely highly experienced here, but when I first started jumping I read absolutely everything on this site, including all the warnings about late turns. Well when it came to my first jump without a radio I was terrified of putting in any toggle inputs below 300ft, no matter how small. Luckily I got down without any major problems and went and had a talk with my instructor. He was very helpfull and let me know (based on his assessment of me) what I could and couldn't do on the way down. I went from being deathly afraid of doing anything to doing what my instructor told me. People, you have heard this before and will hear it again, ask your instructor before you take any advice given here. They know you and what you are (or aren't) capable of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 3 #8 September 11, 2007 So let's hijack for a second or two (because the OP isn't going to get any advice that isn't already in a sticky). Is there a way to verify a user's license with USPA? If so, why not just lock the S&T forum so that anyone who does not have a validated USPA license (verified by license number along with user's name) cannot view or post to the S&T forum? Maybe you could say that once they have their "B" license, they can read posts here. Then, once they have their Coach or Instructor rating they can submit posts, create topics, and reply to posts here. Topics could be PM'd directly to someone on the Coach/Instructor list to address / approve or deny for discussion. Requests for advice or people trying to give advice in other forum areas could just be deleted by mods...no explanation necessary. Now, I've presented a potential solution to the constant reference to "standard reply #27" (aka. talk to your instructor), and I'm hoping that we can look for a real solution to this. Otherwise, you're just pissing in the wind. For what it is worth, my solution does essentially say that anyone without a coach / instructor rating has nothing to contribute to a discussion on safety and training except questions. In advance, those of you who say "oh it would be too much trouble to set something like that up, I don't have time to investigate a solution", haven't I seen you guys mentioning people dying from advice they receive online? Quote I wish students would stop taking advice from these forums and I wish people would stop giving advice to them. It's going to get someone hurt. So you've exerted a total of two wishes to try and fix the situation. If that's the route to take, while we're at it, I want a pony. Come on guys. If it is truly that important to you (you plural...ie. old guys in the activity who apparently spend many hours reading and posting to dropzone.com), why not put some time and brainpower into a real solution? - David ps - Who is Skratch Garrison?SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #9 September 11, 2007 Why don't you make this same suggestion in the Suggestions forum? We can then have a discussion on its merits, on its issues and Sangiro can see how much work is required to do something like this and if the effort is worth the gain. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #10 September 11, 2007 QuoteIs there a way to verify a user's license with USPA? This isnt a US based website. While most posters are amaricans, there are A LOT of us from Canada, Europe, South Africa, and Australia. That creates a whole bunch of challenges: 1- You 'd be missing out on a lot of very experienced folks' advice if you were to limit thinks to the US 2- The curriculum from one contry may be vastly different from another (heck, its vastly different from DZ to DZ withing a country). Someone with a C license who's only seen AFF may miss the fact that someone is talking about IADs for example. 3- This isnt a game. In person, 1 on 1 interaction is how you learn to skydive, not reading boards.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #11 September 11, 2007 QuoteThis isnt a US based website. While most posters are amaricans, there are A LOT of us from Canada, Europe, South Africa, and Australia. Good points to a good idea, no, a great idea. But how to include as many "qualified" individuals from all over the globe? It could just be part of a regrestration process maybe? The devil is in the details...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #12 September 11, 2007 I appreciate the motivation behind your suggestion, but I'd be against it. This is a forum for open discussion. You're basically talking about the website engaging in censorship to prevent grown adults from posting or reading the wrong advice. And who's to say what's wrong advice? Lots of room for debate on lots of subjects (such as: "pilot chute in tow: cut away or go straight to reserve?") Skydiving is all about personal responsibility for one's own life. If you're adult enough to decide to jump out of an airplane and potentially die on any given jump, then you're adult enough to bear the responsibility for educating yourself on where to get, and not get, advice given your skill level. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #13 September 11, 2007 QuoteI appreciate the motivation behind your suggestion, but I'd be against it. This is a forum for open discussion. You're basically talking about the website engaging in censorship to avoid grown adults from reading the wrong advice. That's it! I am going to start venturing into the "Womens Only" forum! I am being discriminated aginst because I was born this way! What I am trying to say is, there are different threads in the forums for different applications. Quotebear the responsibility for educating yourself on where to get, and not get, advice This makes it seem like you agree that there is a lot of poor advice being given out there.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #14 September 11, 2007 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bear the responsibility for educating yourself on where to get, and not get, advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This makes it seem like you agree that there is a lot of poor advice being given out there. I personally dont thing there is _a lot_ of bad advice given. There is some blatantly bad advise, and then there is a whole range of advice that is given without knowing all that is required. There is also the issue that, a lot of the time, easy solutions get remembered easier. If you are trying to educate yourself and see these 2 statements: 1- dont turn low 2- learn how to do flat turns, and if you need to turn low, execute one of them and be ready to PLF which one is the easier one to remember? Also, all the incident report of people getting hurt by doing low turns are not being balanced with the reports of people doing low turns safely all the time.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #15 September 11, 2007 Quote For what it is worth, my solution does essentially say that anyone without a coach / instructor rating has nothing to contribute to a discussion on safety and training except questions. ? OK, I won't say anything more about exit separation on here. It's a pity those instructors who still recommend the 45 degree rule will still be allowed to post, though.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #16 September 11, 2007 we're all adults here. We don't need some complicated solution to replace the phrase "check with your own instructors." That said, I want to know how many instructors here agree with advice to do a 90 degree turn in the landing pattern as low as 50ft. I'm pretty sure that's bad advice unless the turn is necessary to avoid an unforseen danger. The canopy will never regain full flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 3 #17 September 11, 2007 Quote Why don't you make this same suggestion in the Suggestions forum? We can then have a discussion on its merits, on its issues and Sangiro can see how much work is required to do something like this and if the effort is worth the gain. Truthfully? Because I don't endorse it. I think that it would limit the learning that happens here (yes it actually happens). Learning doesn't just come from being spoon-fed rule after rule. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #18 September 11, 2007 QuoteI think that it would limit the learning that happens here How so?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 3 #19 September 11, 2007 Quote I want to know how many instructors here agree with advice to do a 90 degree turn in the landing pattern as low as 50ft. I'm pretty sure that's bad advice unless the turn is necessary to avoid an unforseen danger. The canopy will never regain full flight. (the following is for illustrative purposes only) *imitating an instructor's authoritative voice* "That depends on the conditions, heading versus wind direction, sources of potential turbulence, and how comfortable you are with piloting your particular canopy in slow-flight. Have you done canopy piloting drills with braked-turns that lead directly into a braked-approach? You should really check with your instructor. They may recommend reading this article by Skratch Garrison and then put you through some drills while under canopy." See, even I can masquerade as someone authoritative. I'm just giving advice that sounds reasonable...even though I'm not someone that should be giving advice by any means whatsoever. Does that make sense? So people here have to choose for themselves eventually. Do you want to cry and moan every time someone gives or takes advice? Or, do you want to find a solution to the "potential" problems that an open forum creates? I don't care much either way, but some of you do. I just feel sorry for those who never seek a solution to their self-proclaimed problems, yet throw #27 up there with every post that's made. Get busy living, or get busy dying. As for me, I'm going to get busy flying. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 3 #20 September 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteI think that it would limit the learning that happens here How so? Well, I can only speak for the way in which I learn. It helps for me to get the good information and see it reaffirmed by more than one person. It also helps for me to get the bad information and see it discredited by more than one person. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #21 September 11, 2007 QuoteIt helps for me to get the good information and see it reaffirmed by more than one person. It also helps for me to get the bad information and see it discredited by more than one person so how many FJC's with different instructors did you take before making your first solo?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 3 #22 September 11, 2007 Quoteso how many FJC's with different instructors did you take before making your first solo? I took one FJC with one instructor. Why do you ask? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #23 September 11, 2007 QuoteI'm pretty sure that's bad advice unless the turn is necessary to avoid an unforseen danger But thats exactly the point! Saying "Dont turn low" makes some people fly straight into a tree.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #24 September 11, 2007 QuoteI took one FJC with one instructor. Why do you ask? I ask because you said: Well, I can only speak for the way in which I learn. It helps for me to get the good information and see it reaffirmed by more than one person. It also helps for me to get the bad information and see it discredited by more than one person. Instructors are people too. So by your own admission you would have needed to go through a series of FJCs before you could make a decision on which set of information in which to base your first solo on no?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 3 #25 September 12, 2007 Quote So by your own admission you would have needed to go through a series of FJCs before you could make a decision on which set of information in which to base your first solo on, no? No. One instructor equals one set of information. You seem to be confused about the difference between the word "limit" and the concept of preclusion. Limit does not mean preclude. But it is good that you were trying to find a some sort of a connection. You also seem to be confused by the difference between my description of clarification through confirmation (ie. figuring out which of the people on this forum really know their stuff and which ones are just posting things that sound plausible) and the concept of instructional isolation. I can actually learn through more than one method. (Shocking, I know.) You must have thought that I was describing the only way that I can learn. (I don't think that I could have made it through three degree programs that way. I'd still be in high school. ) By the way, do you consider AFF jumps to be solos? I've just never heard anyone refer to them as such. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
