Traitors vs. Patriots

[Tf15 0]

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I just learned something about the term concentration camp. Seems you are right, though the current understanding of most with regards to its use in the vernacular probably stems from the German/Cambodian models, I'd wager. That's where I was coming from.

Yep, you're right though. Per the encycolopedic definition it is a concentration camp. Can of worms - yep. I don't think these people have a right to trial under the US judicial system as they aren't US citizens and committed no crimes on US soil. However, I also don't think they should ever be let loose, though I see no legal justification for doing such a think.

As a signatory nation to the UN Charter, the US is bound by US law (US Constitution Article VI) to treat these people in accordance with international law on human rights. Most impartial observers agree that it does not appear to be doing so.

The US has very dirty hands on this issue.

Three times is enemy action

[Zennie 0]

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That woman is not fat.

I've been trying to figure that one out since it was first mentioned.

Which is the "fat" one? They all look pretty hot to me.

I think people have lost all perspective (again perpetuated by Hollyweird) of what a normal, fit, attractive body is.

Dixie Chicks ain't fat.

Now Mamma Cass, that's a different story.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Tf15 0]

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We were right and justified to go into Iraq. So how about showing some support for the people that fought the war?

Really. I listened to the president's rationale during the State of the Union address, and it was all about WMDs. When they find some WMDs I will agree with you. Until then I reserve judgement.

Curious that Bush doesn't want any independent inspectors in Iraq looking for WMDs, don't you think?

Three times is enemy action

[cgross 1]

I read your last post about how these Hollywood types F-up their own lives... Good Point. While we are on the topic of the Dixie Chics... I wonder what educational background they come from. Did they go to college? Finish High School?

There is an intersting article going around comparing the idiots which criticizes the war and the administration. It compared their educational background. Quite humoris. Take Cheer for example...She thinks he knows world politics even though she dropped out of school in 9th grade. Where as Condi Rice has 2 Phd's, or Powell with more than one grad degree.

These people are obviously TOO stupid to realize their leaders are smart. There is good reason why Cheer isn't president... Cuz she is STUPID!!!

[Tf15 0]

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I read your last post about how these Hollywood types F-up their own lives... Good Point. While we are on the topic of the Dixie Chics... I wonder what educational background they come from. Did they go to college? Finish High School?

There is an intersting article going around comparing the idiots which criticizes the war and the administration. It compared their educational background. Quite humoris. Take Cheer for example...She thinks he knows world politics even though she dropped out of school in 9th grade. Where as Condi Rice has 2 Phd's, or Powell with more than one grad degree.

These people are obviously TOO stupid to realize their leaders are smart. There is good reason why Cheer isn't president... Cuz she is STUPID!!!

I think you mean "Cher". Was spelling a part of your educational background?

P.S. I have more than one graduate degree. Does that make my opinion better than yours or Bush's?

Three times is enemy action

[JJohnson 0]

My personal feeling, Hussein posed a threat to our security. Not so much through WMD, but terrorism. He funded, allowed training camps to operate.....We were justified in going into Afghanistan as well.

As for WMD, it could all be propaganda, but didn't some Iraqi just admit to having a ton of shit sent to Syria weeks or months prior to us going in???

I don't want to get wrapped up into another who's right or wrong debate. It always comes down to each government doing what is in it's best interest. Even sainted Switzerland has a lot of blood money sitting in it's vaults from WWII. Is what they did wrong??? Yes. Did they do it in theri own best interest???yes.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[billvon 3,076]

> don't go to my Mechanic for advise on my Cancer, and I don't
>really want to go to my entertainers for poitical advise....

Ever taken a cab in NYC? You can't _not_ get political advice from a cabbie. Also, my rigger sure seems to give me a lot of medical advice . . .

[Guest]

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Take Cheer for example...

Was she "All-Temperature"?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Zennie 0]

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These people are obviously TOO stupid to realize their leaders are smart.

Realize that what you've just said could be turned on it's head quite easily.

Oh, and for the record I have a Juris Doctor degree (i.e. I have a law degree, which is PhD level) as well as a 3.9 in my post-graduate Computer Science studies.

However, I don't support the war and haven't since the beginning because I think our Administration's rationale for doing so is suspect.

AND, not supporting the war does NOT equate into a lack of support for our troops. Just the opposite in fact. I'd much prefer (and hope) that they come home safely to their families and friends.

Nor does (a healthy) distrust of one's government(which is comprised of politicians after all) equate into a lack of patriotism.

Love your country and the principles upon which it was founded. ALWAYS distrust your government.

This public service message is brought to you by a proud card-carrying Libertarian.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[JJohnson 0]

That was well said. I thank you.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[wmw999 2,544]

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There is an intersting article going around comparing the idiots which criticizes the war and the administration. It compared their educational background. Quite humoris

The article was comparing specific actors and actresses who criticize the war with specific members of the administration. I'm sure I could find well-educated actors and actresses, and compare them against some of the less stellar members of our government, and have some fun.

I criticized the war. Am I an idiot? Harking back to a previous administration, I think that Bill Clinton had educational experience at least as illustrious as anyone's on your list except for Condoleeza Rice.

By the way, there are damn few liberals who call her an idiot -- she isn't an idiot. She thinks out what she wants, and doesn't just respond to external stimuli in a preprogrammed way. Especially not in a way that others program her to.

What does that all mean? Fuck if I know, but I'm tired of hearing all about how stupid liberals are. I'm liberal on many issues. I think the deficit matters. I think we should include ourselves in the world community rather than trying to set ourselves apart from it (while, of course, leading it). I think the environment matters now in ways that affect how we do things, and not only when stuff runs out.

I realize this is yet another "liberal vs. conservative" diatribe. But I'd like you guys to notice a couple of things:

1. I'm saying what I'm for; I'm not trying to say what an idiot the other guy is
2. The vast majority of the words are spelled correctly. If spelling matters with people I'm trying to impress, it matters with my friends.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TheAnvil 0]

I find your conclusion flawed.

Name one 'human right' that the Gitmo prisoners do not have. Are they free? Absolutely not. Their legal status is a can of worms - perhaps you can fault the US there. But to say the US is in violations of human rights is so wrong it's disgusting. Kind of like having Sudan on a human rights commission. Idiotic.

Fact: They have the best health care they have ever received. Better by severl orders of magnitude than their countrymen back home.

Fact: They have three meals a day. Better than most of their countrymen back in Afghanistan.

Fact: They are in a milder climate than their countrymen back home.

Fact: While they are locked up, they won't be terrorizing others.

Compare and contrast the Gitmo containment facility with ANY prison in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Lebanon, Egypt, or any other nation and you'll find it quite amenable. If you were able to find one other nation whose prison facility is soooooo much better, you might have an argument (emphasis on the might). You can't. Period.

Pretzels and Beers,

Vinny

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[wmw999 2,544]

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Name one 'human right' that the Gitmo prisoners do not have

He didn't say they didn't have human rights. He said that the US is violating international human rights laws (which I'm assuming means the Geneva Convention). We are violating the Geneva Convention. Not egregiously in terms of mistreatment of prisoners. But we're playing fast and loose with the rules, and deciding unilaterally which rules apply and which don't. Kind of a "we don't really care about your laws, we'll just pick the ones we like" approach. Since the US isn't into torture, we're not shocking them etc.

But the point is that we're telling the world that we know best, and they're just going to have to trust us. That seems to imply that we think the rules are for everyone but us. If someone else tortures, it's wrong. But it doesn't make it OK for us not to release information about prisoners.

Here's a good article that goes into the issue from the Washington College of Law: Dealing with the Detainees at Guantanamo Bay: Humanitarian and Human Rights Obligations under the Geneva Conventions

While you think that anything coming from a "Human Rights Journal" is suspect, this is a good analysis.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PhillyKev 0]

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Nazi's and Commies hold beliefs more akin to the left -

Actually, Nazis and Communists are almost polar opposites. Nazis were fascists. They just both happen to be totalitarian. There are two types of totalitarianism...Nazism/Fascism which evolved from "right-wing" extremism, and Communism, which evolved from "left-wing" extremism.

It goes something like this from left to right:

Anarchist - Communist - Socialist - Liberal - Conservative - Dictatorship - Fascism

Right wing totalitarian regimes have arisen in relatively advanced societies, relying on the support of traditional economic elites to attain power. Left wing totalitarian regimes have arisen in relatively undeveloped countries through the unleashing of revolutionary violence and terror. Right wing totalitarian regimes also use terror and violence to maintain compliance with authority. However they are usually not born through that method, but more insiduously through an erosion of rights and shifts in power until someone gets to the point of authority where they can resort to those controls.

That's where this country is headed with things such as the Patriot Act and Total Information Awareness, and feer of SARS and terrorism, and censorship of opposition, and automatic, unquestioning support of authority.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Zennie is in fact the man! Oh, for the record, I was referring to them overly-vocal, formerly pregnant lead singer. That is the one I was talking about when i said "fat pig." Fat may not apply now, but pig still does.

For the record: I voted Ed Clark for president some time ago.

[misskriss 0]

So it's okay to call her fat because she's pregnant? She had a child inside of her......

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Actually, I had no idea she was pregnant at the time. It wasn't until I saw the picture on the cover of the magazine and saw that she was small again that I tought anything of it. I wouldn't have given a second thought as to the "condition" of any member of that band; I am not a fan. Still, I think she is a pig. Just my opinion.

[jraf 0]

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I don't recall any Jarhead calling you a traitor......I called you potential scum......
What you are is a critical, cynical rabble rouser with no tact. And these appear to be your good points....by your own admission.

By all means question the government. But do not slight the military for doing their job. Or call someone a Nazi or Weak-minded because they disagree with your line or method of questioning.

If you want to question the government how about mandantory seat belts?? A little freedom robbing safety law? Or how about cameras in public places? Gun ownership cards? Your right to bear arms? Abortion issues? Things like this are where our government is whittling away our freedom.

We were right and justified to go into Iraq. So how about showing some support for the people that fought the war?

Finaly a man who appreciates my true self - a scum I am. A few answers to follow:

a) Seat belts are good. Very good as a matter of fact. I wear them relligiously

b) Cameras in public are a violation of my freedom

c) I am for free ownership of fire arms and for the right to brar them

d) Roe vs. Wade? I stand very strongly for the right of the woman to decide

I am also against relligion in schools, against affirmative action, for tax cuts for the rich, for a ballanced budget etc. etc. etc. I form my own point of view.

Our justification for going into Iraq is a mystery to me, so if you care to enlighten me, do so. Just please don't tell me that Saddam Husein posed a threat to our national security, because I shall start pointing to: Afghanistan, Albania, China, Cuba, Iran, Lybia, North Korea, Pakistan, Syria all other countries in posession of WMD not mentioned here and several others. Now let's start with China....

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Thanks for the link Wendy.
There's a whole load of associated stuff on the Amnesty International page here http://www.amnestyusa.org/waronterror/

Oh, and welcome back Zennie....

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Remster 30]

Shouldnt you be at the Pub Nac???????? Bad Scot... bad...

Remster

[Kinaa 0]

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And comparing Guantanamo's detention facility to a concentration camp is utterly ludicrous. I've seen concentration camps - Dachau, Auschwitz, et al and Gitmo has no resemblance. There are no furnaces or working parties, medical care is rendered, there are no murders of prisoners, and open prayer is allowed.

Well I guess it is really that good in Guantanamo 'cos America would not have 13 year old children there in captivity if that is bad place. Guess they are in school there?
Keeping 13y.o. children there is shame for your country.
And you know what is really sad?
The fact that some of you don't think that.

Igor

[PhillyKev 0]

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Compare and contrast the Gitmo containment facility with ANY prison in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Lebanon, Egypt, or any other nation and you'll find it quite amenable. If you were able to find one other nation whose prison facility is soooooo much better, you might have an argument (emphasis on the might). You can't. Period.

Have you been there? I just wonder why it's necessary to have it in a place where no independent parties can readily get to and make sure there aren't any abuses.

[skydyvr 0]

[Quote]For them to be banished wholesale from radio stations, and even entire radio networks, for speaking out is un-American.
The pressure coming from the government and big business to enforce conformity of thought concerning the war and politics goes against everything that this country is about - namely freedom.[/Quote]

Springsteen's quote above makes me believe he doesn't understand that it's the radio listening public that caused the Dipsy Sticks to be banned from various stations, not the government.

Our current administration has done nothing but affirm and uphold the right of people to speak out against the war. There are plenty of examples of this in the public record.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Zennie 0]

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I voted Ed Clark for president some time ago.

Right on!
I honestly wasn't trying to toot my own horn (if anything I don't give myself a break ). I just wanted to dispute cgross' implication that those opposed to the war are uneducated idiots.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[PhillyKev 0]

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Our current administration has done nothing but affirm and uphold the right of people to speak out against the war. There are plenty of examples of this in the public record.

Really? Can you site one example of any action taken by the administration to uphold the right of US citizens to speak out against the war? I don't remember seeing them going out of their way to make sure protestors weren't hassled.