lewmonst 0 #1 April 23, 2003 Hey guys, what do you think. All this reading of an argument over what to post on Holly's incident thread is disturbing me. So let's try to bring it here. Can we discuss and clarify what should and should not be posted on that or any other thread in the Incidents forum? What is speculation? Where should it go? peacehttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #2 April 23, 2003 IMO... Facts, first-hand info and the discussion thereof... Some LIMITED second-hand info from reliable sources (i.e. "I talked to the S&TA who witnessed the event and they told me...") might be allowable, depending on the nature of the information. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #3 April 23, 2003 2nd on the list for me ____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #4 April 23, 2003 second one for me too... it is painful to open those threads but when I see a new post, i open them to see if there are real answers there. These ideas, arguments and conjectures are actually causing me pain. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #5 April 23, 2003 i agree with the second one as well. leave the incidents forum for reports, facts and questions. its simple enough to start a speculation thread here or in S&T or GS then anyone not interested in that type of discussion can easily stay out and still be 'current' on the official report.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,457 #6 April 23, 2003 I also agree with the second one. If a discussion thread is wanted, it might be good for a sort of automatic thing to be that folks start one in S&T and post the clicky link to that thread in Incidents. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #7 April 23, 2003 I think speculation shouldn't be discouraged. The intent of that forum (IMHO) is to try to learn from accidents, not place or deflect blame/responsibility or find the exact cause of a specific accident. Can't really think of a good example at the moment, but bringing up possible reasons why something could have happened I think is ok, you might bring up something some one hadn't thought of as dangerous before. I think this does bear some responsibilty and call for common sense though... damaging speculation such as "I heard they were drunk off their ass the night before, maybe that's why" is out of bounds. And if you don't know something to be fact, you should make that clear as well.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #8 April 23, 2003 the only issue i have with that is that by doing it in the incidents forum anyone who is only really looking for the latest update on the incident has to read thru pages of "what ifs' that dont necessarily relate to the incident. yes this a great place to learn and discuss ANYTHING skydiving related (and not on occasion) but thats the reason why we have separate forums..to help filter the content to the specific topic your looking for..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #9 April 23, 2003 I also strongly believe that the incidents forum should be used to discuss the facts and facts alone. I created THIS thread in S&T to discuss all other second hand information, speculation and general ideas not only about the incident reguarding Holly, but any incident related to skydiving wether it's listed in the incidents forum or not. I think it's important to have a dedicated thread for these discussions instead of letting them run rampant throughout the forums. It is better for us all to have a central source for this discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #10 April 23, 2003 *bump* chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #11 April 23, 2003 I really think that a discussion/analysis of the incident is appropriate. I'd much rather see the discussion include likely causes of the accident, and helpful thoughts on how to avoid getting into such a situation. A simple statement of the facts that doesn't include some analysis of the situation, and hopefully some good opinions on how to deal with a similar problem will be far less useful.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #12 April 24, 2003 ok, I don't know what the hell Tom's avatar is supposed to be but i do agree with the few folks on here that said the discussion is a good learning process... (yes, I am flipflopping on the issue) I think it is just hard, as I stated earlier, when you knew and were fond of the person being discussed and therefore want to know what happened but don't want the constant reminders. So, while you don't want to open the thread, you keep doing it hoping for an answer just because someone had another conjecture. Obviously Holly was loved by many and that is why this has come up. Maybe it is the appropriate place and friends of the person hurt just need to sort of deal with the fact that there will be a lot of discussion.. and not look back at the thread until they can better deal with that. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
encinoadam 0 #13 April 24, 2003 So long as people don't post "blue skies." It does nothing to further the discussion or to educate people. It also does nothing to make anyone feel any better about it. Just my cent and a half. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #14 April 24, 2003 I picked the first one. I think it's truly pathetic that there is so much discussion on how an incident should be discussed. Some people will do anything to keep an argument alive. My take on it is something like this. A jumper died, we were told everything that was known, an investigation is under way, i'll wait and see what comes out of the investigation. The few posts that contributed facts were nice. The whole trying to learn from others mistakes excuse is old. People are just nosey by nature and feel the need to know everything right away. People need to chill and wait for the facts. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #15 April 24, 2003 QuoteThe whole trying to learn from others mistakes excuse is old. People are just nosey by nature and feel the need to know everything right away. People need to chill and wait for the facts. Goddamn! Well put Sunshine. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #16 April 24, 2003 QuotePeople are just nosey by nature and feel the need to know everything right away. People need to chill and wait for the facts. Agreed....to a point. Do you think we've gotten all the facts on some of the incidents? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #17 April 24, 2003 ok, i'll throw in my thoughts here. I totally agree with Josh, Zen & Sunshine. When I open the incidents forums, I want to find facts and answers. Each time I see a new post, I hope it's a real explanation of what went wrong, not a "my friends friend was there and called my friend and he said..." We all played the telephone game in kindergarten, it's not reliable. I also am disappointed to see speculation. Agreeing with Cajones from the Holly thread, I think speculation clouds the facts and confuses people. I do agree that we should be open to discussion of all possibilities, but not on the official incident post. I'd rather we had the patience and respect to stay out of it until the S&TA or official report is released. I too am very curious and want to know how something so seemingly unexplainable could happen to sweet Holly. I keep saying, "how could that happen?" "how?" "how?"... and it's natural to try to answer that, I speculate in my own head. But I refrain from sharing my speculations because I don't feel it contributes to the actual report of the incident, in the official thread. I refrained from getting into this discussion on Holly's thread, and started this one, because while I do have a lot to say, there is an appropriate place to say everything. Which is why our wise Sangiro has separate forums. Everything there is to speculate can be taken to Safety & Training. So many of these speculated scenarios have been discussed in Safety and Training already. If not, start the discussion of "what if"s there. I go to the Incident forum to see specific facts about a particular incident, catch up on the latest information/reports about that incident only. I don't want to have to filter through the posts of what might have happened to find the truth. ... still patiently waiting for answers, knowing we may never know what really happened .... peacehttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #18 April 24, 2003 To keep it simple: 1. The incidents forum should be for facts, official report and first hand information. Questions about facts seem like they should be OK to me, just to clarify. But not to speculate. 2. There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussion. Cajones has stated this several times, but I don't think people are reading his statements. Please discuss on other forums, not on incidents. Incidents is where we can look (not ask) for the latest info.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #19 April 24, 2003 Second one for me - and I think that the questions asked should be related to equipment - not the person. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #20 April 24, 2003 QuoteQuotePeople are just nosey by nature and feel the need to know everything right away. People need to chill and wait for the facts. Agreed....to a point. Do you think we've gotten all the facts on some of the incidents? Ciels- Michele No, and sometimes we never will. Which is why I think it's ok to throw out a few "what if's" Like with Holly - if all we stated were the facts, then what's the point in posting it in the first place? There's absolutely nothing to learn from it. Throwing ideas around - gear problems, medical problems, human error possibilities, etc. If we "chill and wait for the facts" we probably won't be any better off. Example - car goes off the road in the middle of the night hits a tree, driver dies. Facts: car crashed, driver dead. What's there to learn there? We don't know why, and probably never will. I think by coming up with possible reasons to the accident, you actually are made to think of more things to be mindful of, do/not do, etc.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 0 #21 April 24, 2003 Number 2 for me. I like to use the incidents forum to find the facts. Discussion can be done in the general skydiving forum. It's nice to have a place that you can find the facts without sorting thru tons of posts about speculation and opinion. HI Karen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #22 April 24, 2003 QuoteExample - car goes off the road in the middle of the night hits a tree, driver dies. Facts: car crashed, driver dead. What's there to learn there? We don't know why, and probably never will. I think by coming up with possible reasons to the accident, you actually are made to think of more things to be mindful of, do/not do, etc. The what if's need to be framed properly though... Was the driver drinking? Did the driver have any know medical conditions? and the like... Not, "I heard the driver did xyz before driving, is that true?" Which questions above lead to a discussion and which lead to confusion and erronious information being put out? JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #23 April 24, 2003 I voted for the fourth one. My feelings on this have been articulated in this thread.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #24 April 24, 2003 QuoteIf we "chill and wait for the facts" we probably won't be any better off. To quote from my original post...."some people will do anything to keep an argument alive." You have just proved my point beautifully. Thanks. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #25 April 24, 2003 QuoteThe what if's need to be framed properly though... Agree completely. In my first post I even said QuoteI think this does bear some responsibilty and call for common sense though... damaging speculation such as "I heard they were drunk off their ass the night before, maybe that's why" is out of bounds. And if you don't know something to be fact, you should make that clear as well. It shouldn't be a place to help spread rumors. I don't think there's a lot of people that disagree with the fact that "possibilities" are ok to be discussed (maybe one or two) - the problem comes, is it ok to discuss in the Incidents forum, as opposed to starting something in S&Tit's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
