Jonesy920x 0 #1 May 4, 2012 I've been using the "search" function and haven't found much about airlocks after 2008. Brian Germain isn't even making them on a regular basis. Are cross brace canopies superior? Are airlocks too expensive to manufacture? Or is it simple economics ...not enough customers to justify production ie; we vote with our dollars. Just thought the engineering was sound (I'm a pilot and tech geek).Experience is knowing a lot of things you shouldn't do ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #2 May 4, 2012 QuoteI've been using the "search" function and haven't found much about airlocks after 2008. Brian Germain isn't even making them on a regular basis. Are cross brace canopies superior? Are airlocks too expensive to manufacture? Or is it simple economics ...not enough customers to justify production ie; we vote with our dollars. My guess it's the later - little demand, thus very limited production. I am also fairly certain that a crossbrace is more expensive to manufacture. Also, I think comparing a crossbraced to an airlocked canopy is like comparing apples to walnuts. The purposes of those two features are completely different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtbox 0 #3 May 4, 2012 Why haven't we seen a crossbraced airlocked canopy? Granted I don't know much about smooping but looking at top end canopies the inlets are very small anyway and it it seems like it would solve the Dubia air-gremlin problem while creating a more rigid wing (which could allow different shapes as well?) I am most likely missing something so I wouldn't mind to be educated Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #4 May 4, 2012 isnt the top-line germain canopy xbraced and airlocked!?“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 May 4, 2012 Quote Why haven't we seen a crossbraced airlocked canopy? Granted I don't know much about smooping but looking at top end canopies the inlets are very small anyway and it it seems like it would solve the Dubia air-gremlin problem while creating a more rigid wing (which could allow different shapes as well?) I am most likely missing something so I wouldn't mind to be educated Brian Germain got some prototype like that. They were quite complex to make with a really little benefit over the x-braced canopies. Dead end.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #6 May 4, 2012 on top of it, opening sucked no???Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #7 May 4, 2012 I have a Vengeance and the openings are interesting to say the least. Always soft and always a radical dive to the left or right, depending on which side inflates first...I have been told this is a result of the airlocks, although I really dont have enough experience to say if it is true or not.... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #8 May 4, 2012 QuoteI have a Vengeance and the openings are interesting to say the least. Always soft and always a radical dive to the left or right, depending on which side inflates first...I have been told this is a result of the airlocks, although I really dont have enough experience to say if it is true or not.... Airlocks prevent (slow down) the air from escaping out the nose. Crossports help equalize internal pressure. Thus the only way your statement makes sense (at least to me) is if your canopy has no crossports OR if it gets an extremely rapid and equally extremely uneven inflation. personally, I call BS. (I have owned Jedeis and Samurais. I ahve also jumped Vengeances and Lotuses) Considering that the rumor mill was saying that Vengeance was discontinued due to being extremely elliptical, my best guess is that's the same reason why yours opens the way it does. Oh, and body position, of course ! :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #9 May 4, 2012 airlocks are not completely dead. Wingsuits are full of them scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #10 May 4, 2012 Quoteisnt the top-line germain canopy xbraced and airlocked!? No. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JasonYergin 0 #11 May 4, 2012 Quote airlocks are not completely dead. Wingsuits are full of them Ya learn something every day if you read......_________________________________ ...Don't Get Elimated!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dean358 0 #12 May 4, 2012 About 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.)www.wci.nyc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #13 May 4, 2012 QuoteAbout 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.) Not everyone needs an elliptical canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #14 May 4, 2012 Quote Quote About 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.) Not everyone needs an elliptical canopy. the sabre 2 is elliptical.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #15 May 4, 2012 Quote Quote Quote About 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.) Not everyone needs an elliptical canopy. the sabre 2 is elliptical.. Take a look at what the Sabre2 looks like : http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/linetrims/SA_097-170P02LT.pdf and now look at the Vengeance : http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/linetrims/VN_089-170LT.pdf Quite a difference, eh ? PD calls Sabre2 semi-elliptical, and the Vengeance fully elliptical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #16 May 4, 2012 I think you meant this for the Vengeance.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #17 May 4, 2012 QuoteI think you meant this for the Vengeance. sure did ! Just edited the post. Thank you ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #18 May 4, 2012 Quote About 1,000 jumps ago I owned a Vengeance 170, wing loaded at 1.17 to 1. The openings were so sporty that I either had to sell it or quit the sport. BTW, I'm sure my body position was far less than ideal at opening, but the same shity body position produced much more stable openings with a Saber-2 170. (Still jumping the Saber-2 170 today.) YMMV. I love my vengeance (except in high winds), as do the other jumpers I know that own a vengeance. I'm not sure what you mean by sporty openings, if your packjob or body position leaves something to be desired then yes an eliptical will act up more. So "shitty bodypositions" are not recommended, no But even when a toggle fired during linestretch I didn't have to chop my vengeance, you just have to be on the ball. I've done a couple wingsuit jumps with mine even (though not recommended). I did have to chop my vengeance one time after a ball of crap opening but I knew the canopy needed a reline badly and I had continued jumping it anyway. All in all, if you're ready for an elliptical, the vengeance isn't a bad idea IMO, too bad they don't make 'em anymore ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #19 May 4, 2012 I really like my Sam. If the line trim is slightly out, the openings can get funky, and like ANY canopy, it can have a hard opening, but overall, I really like it's flight characteristics. (Sam 136 at about 1.8)Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #20 May 4, 2012 QuoteI have a Vengeance and the openings are interesting to say the least. Always soft and always a radical dive to the left or right, depending on which side inflates first...I have been told this is a result of the airlocks, although I really dont have enough experience to say if it is true or not.... My Samurai opens on heading nearly all the time. I'd be inclined to blame packing, body position, canopy trim (Spectra brake lines have shrunk too much after just a few hundred jumps) or manufacturing variations (about half a dozen people at my DZ got Spectres with built-in turns which PD fixed) before pointing my finger at the airlocks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #21 May 5, 2012 QuoteAirlocks prevent (slow down) the air from escaping out the nose. Crossports help equalize internal pressure. Thus the only way your statement makes sense (at least to me) is if your canopy has no crossports OR if it gets an extremely rapid and equally extremely uneven inflation. Think about the size of a nose opening and it's exposure to relative wind versus the size of a cross-port. The nose is going to win every time. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #22 May 5, 2012 As stated, thats what I was told....I never claimed it to be God's truth. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnSherman 1 #23 May 6, 2012 If "Air Locks" worked then ridge wings wouldn't stall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #24 May 6, 2012 I was under the impression that a stall had to do with the AOA, not whether the wing was rigid or not If airlocks dont work perhaps you could explain to me why my Vengeance always looked like an air mattress laying on the ground after I landed... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonesy920x 0 #25 May 7, 2012 QuoteIf "Air Locks" worked then ridge wings wouldn't stall. ? Any wing will stall when AOA is exceeded. I thought the idea of the "air locks" was to help with canopy collapse in turbulence.Experience is knowing a lot of things you shouldn't do ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
