kevin922 0 #1 April 17, 2003 So a friend of mine is going to the CSS easter boogie.. i remember a valid point made by diverdriver a while back that when a DZ is in financial "trouble" it would be a valid concern as to how the maintinace on the jump ships is. I remember a comment by some other jumpers that they wouldn't get in an aircraft owned by a particular person because of maint. concerns.. So, can a jumper just go up and ask to see the maintinace records and expect to see them or what ? Just curious Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #2 April 17, 2003 Personally, I'm not getting on any jump ship without reviewing all of the maintenance records!! That's crazy!! Unless, of course, you wear a parachute in case something goes wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #3 April 17, 2003 I'd be more concerned about the DZ's that can't pay their maintence shop then the maintence shop itself. And there are DZ's out there that are'nt paying their bills to the maintence shops.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #4 April 17, 2003 If you don't trust the dz that much, consider jumping somewhere else ____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #5 April 17, 2003 Hmm, extend your request for maintenance records to say, normal commercial flights, taxi cabs, busses, trains, freinds cars, etc and why not? What about checking the qualifications of the guy that just changed your tyres and checked the brakes on your car? Maybe take a quick tour of the kitchen at the restaurant you are about to eat at? At some stage you have to just accept a little risk in your life, give out a little trust, or exist in a paranoid state forever. If you don't trust them, don't use them....simple as that.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #6 April 17, 2003 Either you trust your DZO or you don't..... If a S &TA wanted to speak with an Operator due to concerns from the local jumping community, regarding upkeep of aircraft... that would be a bit different and perhaps acceptable.... But for each jumper to feel the need to inspect such records themeselves,,, only tends to further reinforce negative rumors, and is counter productive IMHO....... Nervous???? go jump somewhere else.... What's next??,,, reviewing DZO's insurances, financing plans, business strategies???? Can we call into question scenarios where pilots', or instructors' attitudes and behaviors may be contrary to what WE believe should be done??????... I think not.... If you must,,,, jump somewhere else...Hell we all go to boogies,, throughout the year,, and certainly don't request to see all the details about the aircraft(s) which are being used,,, before we pay our registration.......Let's give the Operators a little credit here..... DZO's are generally a VERY responsible and reliable bunch and (for the most part),,, would not "shoot themselves in the foot" and open themselves to HUGE litigation,, because of intentional inadequate aircraft maintenance...(plus you're talkin' FAA violation)....You want access to such information,,,, Go buy an airplane and start your own DZ... peace.. jmy edited for spelling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #7 April 17, 2003 QuoteSo, can a jumper just go up and ask to see the maintinace records and expect to see them or what ? Most skydivers wouldn't have a clue as to what they'd be looking for anyway so it's kind of a moot point.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 April 17, 2003 Quote Most skydivers wouldn't have a clue as to what they'd be looking for anyway I'd look for coffee and jelly/jam stains on the log. If those are there, then who's to say the A&P wasn't taking a "cop break" (coffee donuts) instead of doing the 100hour on the 182...hmmmm? Makes ya think doesn't it? --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #9 April 17, 2003 Quote Either you trust your DZO or you don't..... If a S &TA wanted to speak with an Operator due to concerns from the local jumping community, regarding upkeep of aircraft... that would be a bit different and perhaps acceptable.... But for each jumper to feel the need to inspect such records themeselves,,, only tends to further reinforce negative rumors, and is counter productive IMHO....... Nervous???? go jump somewhere else.... What's next??,,, reviewing DZO's insurances, financing plans, business strategies???? Can we call into question scenarios where pilots', or instructors' attitudes and behaviors may be contrary to what WE believe should be done??????... I think not.... If you must,,,, jump somewhere else...Hell we all go to boogies,, throughout the year,, and certainly don't request to see all the details about the aircraft(s) which are being used,,, before we pay our registration.......Let's give the Operators a little credit here..... DZO's are generally a VERY responsible and reliable bunch and (for the most part),,, would not "shoot themselves in the foot" and open themselves to HUGE litigation,, because of intentional inadequate aircraft maintenance...(plus your talkin' FAA violation)....You want access to such information,,,, Go buy an airplane and start your own DZ... peace.. jmy calm down there partner.. it was just a question to see people's opinions.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #10 April 17, 2003 Did you expect a flood of responses,,, agreeing with such an intrusion into someone else's business practices??,,,, As Nacmac points out,,,, where do we draw the line???... that's all...Once again,, peace. AND I hope your friend has a great time at CSS... jaytee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #11 April 17, 2003 i would say if you want to look at them, then they would more than likely let you, but if you don't know what to look for what good is it. and another thing you have to think about is would any mechanic (a&p) really let an airplane fly that is unsafe with their name all over the log books. could it happen, sure i guess so, but i don't see it happening. just something to think about. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #12 April 17, 2003 Quote What about checking the qualifications of the guy that just changed your tyres and checked the brakes on your car? Maybe take a quick tour of the kitchen at the restaurant you are about to eat at? No shit. I've even been a cook, so you know the standards are low! Joking aside, NacMac has a point. I'd even extend it further and say that unless you live like a hermit, there is no point in trying to micromanage everything you come in contact with, because you can't. Even if a DZ showed me their maintenance records, I'm not a pilot or mechanic, so I'm not competant to judge them. If I was, it would still rely on their being factual. Even if I could manage all that, what about the security of your bank, or the chemical composition of the gasoline that comes out of the pump at the gas station, the structural integrity of the building in which you work, or any of the other million things you come in contact with every day that require advanced knowledge and skill on the part of someone else. Nobody on the planet is knowledgeable enough or smart enough to know that much detail about everything. BillVon is trying, but even he won't get there. It is just impossible. So, given that you are forced to either remove yourself from society or learn to have some level of trust in it, pick and choose the things you want to spend time worrying about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #13 April 17, 2003 If you were allowed to see them, would you understand them? Mostly they deal with inspections. What was found? What was done about what was found? If the records indicate they did indeed changed the oil on time and the tire pressure was ok but neglect to mention that nasty bit of corrosion found on the spar a few seasons ago you would never know it. Even if they conducted the best maint. practices ever with the highest quality parts you have no guaranty. Those new parts sometimes are the first to fail, fairly early in their lifecycle. Are you going to wait until your DZ's jumpship has a few hundred hours on their new engine and prop ( sit out several weekends ) ? Or if the crew says its new and good and it has 5 or 10 hours of ground run time, lets jump will you? A DZ's overall attitude will tell you a lot about what's going on behind the scenes.To a jumper that may be your best gauge. Glen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #14 April 17, 2003 QuoteHmm, extend your request for maintenance records to say, normal commercial flights, taxi cabs, busses, trains, freinds cars, etc and why not? What about checking the qualifications of the guy that just changed your tyres and checked the brakes on your car? Maybe take a quick tour of the kitchen at the restaurant you are about to eat at? At some stage you have to just accept a little risk in your life, give out a little trust, or exist in a paranoid state forever. If you don't trust them, don't use them....simple as that. Nacmac you have a point. Most people wouldn't know what to look for. So it is moot. But, comparing that to airline flying doesn't match up. Airline operations have WAY more scrutiny than skydiving ops. Anyone who thinks they are on par (in the US) with the airlines is seriously mistaken. So, I think some people keeping their eye out might be a very good thing. They just need to know what to look for. And that's where Regional Directors actually traveling around to the DZs in their region helps! But alas, that is tough to have happen. Someone else said that the majority of DZOs are safety minded. That is true. Yet, in skydiving, we have an accident rate TWICE as much as other general aviation flying. And that's comparing our Commercially Certificated pilots to other commercial pilots, many more private pilots, and a lot of student pilots. I'd say that's a pretty bad safety record for our industry. We need to do better. But until many people start clamouring for change it won't happen. Kevin has the right idea (keeping an eye on things that seem out of place) but maybe a misguided way of doing it (looking through Mx logs that many won't understand).Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #15 April 18, 2003 QuoteYet, in skydiving, we have an accident rate TWICE as much as other general aviation flying. Being an outsider I have to ask what do you think the cause/causes for the difference in accident ratio is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #16 April 18, 2003 QuoteQuoteYet, in skydiving, we have an accident rate TWICE as much as other general aviation flying. Being an outsider I have to ask what do you think the cause/causes for the difference in accident ratio is? I feel it is the environment that is the skydiving industry today. That is, skydiving has been growing leaps and bounds over the past 10-12 years. More and more DZs are open. Yet, just because you have the money to open a DZ does not mean you know very much about hiring and training pilots or ensuring that your aircraft has the proper maintenance. How many times a year must we endure pilots running out of gas on jump run or just after to only land off the airport and damage the aircraft? Read through the accident reports on my site. See for yourself what the cause of jump plane accidents are. I think it is a general lack of acknowledgement that aircraft are dangerous vehichles and we must care for them and take care around them. They are not a jungle gym to crawl all over and pilot experience and training must be focused on. Flying airplanes is not like driving a car and as much as I might joke about being a glorified ski lift we aren't. Call it indiference. Call it melaise. Call it hurd mentality. Whatever it is, I feel we need to break this cycle. We have improved in the overall accident rate for skydiving fatalities. We jump more now than ever. The percentage of accidents to jumps is lower. Yet, I don't see that happening with jump plane operations. I sent a letter to the full board of the USPA voicing my concern over this issue. I presented my website and the info there. I only got one response to talk about the subject. That was from Gary Peek. Thanks Gary.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #17 April 18, 2003 If it's a shitty looking airplane, sit by the door, watch your altimeter and relax after you reach 800-1000 AGL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #18 April 18, 2003 Kevin: i have requested, and have been shown the maintenance records for jumpships before, there is no reason a jumper shouldn't be able to review them if they wish, and it's not rocket science, they're quite easy to read and follow. once i was at a dz, and i noticed we haven't beeen performing any pre-flights, so i mention to the dzo, "hey, i'm with the FAA ya know" he freaked and replied "you know if you are with the FAA, you'd have to tell me" i was just kidding, but wanted to see what kind of response i'd get, in any event, they did a preflight check before beginning operations that day.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #19 April 18, 2003 Yes you should.. And if they won't show them walk away.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #20 April 19, 2003 A large part of the problem is that skydiving is near the bottom of the pilot food chain, ergo we get junior pilots who may not know the finer points of keeping them selves alive and are too junior to say no to some of the silly concepts skydivers dream up. For example, the first summer I flew jumpers, they complained long and loud about me doing a run-up before the first load every morning. I had to ignore them for a while, but eventually they quit whining when it became clear that I refused to fly any airplane that I had not warmed up. Next they tried to convince me to fly non-standard landing patterns. My standard response was "I have never even heard of that pattern before." Skydivers were constantly trying to invent new ways to shave a minute or two off the flight time and I was constantly saying no. Eventually they tired of my standard response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
