My little project

[Joellercoaster 6]

Quagmirian

There are no British canopy manufacturers, and now we possibly know why.

I think this is a little unfair. I get that you are frustrated (and the bureaucratic tone of the average BPA committee meeting can indeed be frustrating). But problems are really to do with the fact that you are not a "recognised equipment manufacturer". The rules here are different to the rules in USA to start with because the countries' laws are different, not because the respective parachute associations are somehow more or less freedom-loving.

For what it's worth, I hope the BPA pull their heads out of their arses and put some effort into figuring out how to let you jump it, and I think that at least half their reasons are bogus - but you probably need to address some of the other ones.

Hang in there.

PS there is at least one British canopy manufacturer - they just don't make sport mains.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[RiggerLee 61]

Well I recognize you as an Equipment Manufacturer. Their, close of subject. Period dot. Now call them back and tell them you are in business.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[JerryBaumchen 1,434]

Hi Joeller,

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I think that at least half their reasons are bogus

OK, here they are:

-Mains have to be TSO'd
-Manufacturers must be insured (UPT anyone?)
-The BPA is not insured for home built mains
-I am not qualified to be doing 'test jumping', even after having someone else do the first jumps
-The canopy may suddenly collapse
-I don't know what I'm doing
-I have no quality control to show

Which half are OK?

They are all horsepuckey IMO.

Would someone tell the BPA that it is now the 21st century.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) If people did not build & experiment, we would all still be jumping B-4 rigs with C-9s in them.

PPS) And I also now recognise Quag as a canopy manufacturer. It worked didn't it?

[3mpire 0]

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Well I recognize you as an Equipment Manufacturer. Their, close of subject. Period dot. Now call them back and tell them you are in business.

Does anyone know what the legal standard is to be a "recognized manufacturer"?

Does it mean you have a business license and you have had sales that had tax collected?

If so get a license (easy to do in states, don't know about UK) and sell your canopy to a friend, collect tax, file with the government, and include your tax records in your nuclear bomb binder.

Seems strange that in order to jump a canopy the manufacturer has to be recognized, but you can't be a recognized manufacturer if you can't jump a new canopy. kafka indeed!

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It is often safer to be in chains than to be free.
~Franz Kafka

[justme12001 0]

Not sure if this has been thought of (I'm sure it has)....

How about just getting a label off a canopy that closely resembles your and sew it on. I'm sure everyone will still know that you built it, but can they prove that you didn't buy it?

[mkael 0]

This situation is unfortunate. Keep fighting. Unfortunately I can not offer you anything but moral support.

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We are a democratic, not-for-profit organisation of individuals whose purpose is to organise, govern and further the advancement of Sport Parachuting (skydiving) in the UK.

Are they doing that? What is the definition of Sport Parachuting. That might mean different things for different people. There should be a clear way on how to pursue this path too. The reasons for not letting you jump your stuff sound very random. It is a failure of the sport regulators if there is not a clear path for you to do so either. Have they not thought about the motivation of some people to build and design their own stuff. Currently the bpa is like the many smaller regulators of similar sports which mostly demands requirements defined elsewhere on stuff largely designed and built elsewhere too. One of those regulating bodies which is mostly a consumer of ideas.

Homebuilt planes have a very long tradition. So does the manufacture of the kind of machines flying for easyjet or BA. Different strokes for different people. Stifling innovation is the last thing a small sport like skydiving needs. I haven't jumped out of a plane nearly in a decade. My career in skydiving was very short too. Many people literally jump the same stuff they did back then.

Ok I agree with standards for commercial manufacturers and their products. You have built your own canopy. You are not pushing out helpless students out of the door with this setup either. There always should be a way to become a "recognized manufacturer" too. Ask for the definition too.

[Quagmirian 40]

Thanks for the support everyone. I have calmed down a bit and I will try to reply as best as possible.

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I think this is a little unfair. I get that you are frustrated (and the bureaucratic tone of the average BPA committee meeting can indeed be frustrating). But problems are really to do with the fact that you are not a "recognised equipment manufacturer". The rules here are different to the rules in USA to start with because the countries' laws are different, not because the respective parachute associations are somehow more or less freedom-loving.

Alright, I agree.

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Well I recognize you as an Equipment Manufacturer. Their, close of subject. Period dot. Now call them back and tell them you are in business.

Lee

Thanks, that will be useful especially when they find out what kind of work you do.

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Would someone tell the BPA that it is now the 21st century.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) If people did not build & experiment, we would all still be jumping B-4 rigs with C-9s in them.

PPS) And I also now recognise Quag as a canopy manufacturer. It worked didn't it?

Good point on experimentation, every sport needs it.

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Does anyone know what the legal standard is to be a "recognized manufacturer"?

It was discussed at the meeting. A lot of bogus reasons were given. no real consensus was reached.

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Seems strange that in order to jump a canopy the manufacturer has to be recognized, but you can't be a recognized manufacturer if you can't jump a new canopy. kafka indeed!

I know right? What do they seriously expect? All test jumping has to happen abroad? Or with explicit permission?

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Are they doing that? What is the definition of Sport Parachuting. That might mean different things for different people. There should be a clear way on how to pursue this path too. The reasons for not letting you jump your stuff sound very random. It is a failure of the sport regulators if there is not a clear path for you to do so either. Have they not thought about the motivation of some people to build and design their own stuff.

Yes, this is just another reason the decision was horse puckey. It went directly against what the association is supposed to stand for.

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Ok I agree with standards for commercial manufacturers and their products. You have built your own canopy. You are not pushing out helpless students out of the door with this setup either. There always should be a way to become a "recognized manufacturer" too. Ask for the definition too.

As I mentioned, no definition was given, and I don't think we'll get one for a long time.

[3mpire 0]

makes you want to fill a harbor with tea doesn't it?

[Quagmirian 40]

From the horse's mouth:

http://www.bpa.org.uk/assets/Minutes/STC-2015-06-04.pdf Towards the end of page 11.

I've also got an interesting email back from John LeBlanc, which I didn't expect. Apparently even PD don't have a full test jumping plan for their prototypes. They just have a long list of things they want to achieve. John also said he was glad he didn't have be approved by the BPA!

[cpoxon 0]

Quagmirian

John also said he was glad he didn't have be approved by the BPA!

Perversely, I would imagine that PD don't have to be approved by the BPA because they are "recognised parachute equipment manufacturers"!

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[3mpire 0]

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The Committee believed that there was not enough known about this canopy, i.e. the stresses it may come under, wear & tear etc and that only someone with a lot more experience should be the person jumping it through a proper test programme.

...and "a lot" more is...? 10 jumps? 100 jumps? 1000 jumps?

[Quagmirian 40]

I think that's one of the few things we can agree on. Probably at least 500, maybe 1000.

[RiggerLee 61]

And did you point out that this wasn't the first canopy you had built, but the fourth or fifth. That it didn't have just nine jumps on it but countless flights from ground launching and towing. That that actually far more dangerous then testing from an airplane at a descent altitude. And I hope you made it clear to them that you weren't going away. That you were in this for the long haul and would have yet another prototype ready soon. I will be very disappointed if you let these self important despots squash your ambitions.

Now you know how we felt as colonist back in 1776. Every one stand up and revolt against this terrorny! The Nylon must be free! Give us altitude or give us death! Fly free or die!

And I'll bet you find a staunch supported in Leblanc. If nothing else for the almost daily laughs he has gotten as we stumbled through this project.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[RiggerLee 61]

And I have no doubt that many of us with a thousand or more jumps would be happy to jump the shit out of it for you. But honestly after a couple dozen jumps I think I would have a pretty good grasp on the canopy and would be able to tell you if it had any really bad characteristics. At that point I would say that it was past the first phase of it's testing. and could be passed on to almost any experienced jumper to continue racking up numbers on it.


Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[yoink 321]

Register a name with Companies House as a parachute manufacturer, stick a label on it and jump away.

Some things I'm a big fan of the BPA for. But they're about as an inflexible old boys network as I've ever seen.

[riggerrob 643]

[Quagmirian 40]

RiggerLee

And did you point out that this wasn't the first canopy you had built, but the fourth or fifth.

Ah, we did. Unfortunately, it was also pointed out that it was the first one that had been jumped. We're back to catch 22 again. Can't prove my designs without jumping them, can't jump them without proving them first.

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That that actually far more dangerous then testing from an airplane at a descent altitude.

Yeah, we forgot to point that out. A lot of people still don't understand that it's the primary way to test a canopy. You don't sit around pull testing or theorizing.

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And I hope you made it clear to them that you weren't going away. That you were in this for the long haul and would have yet another prototype ready soon. I will be very disappointed if you let these self important despots squash your ambitions.

I'm not going away until there's a chance for everyone who wants to build there own kit to have a way to do so. I'm not the first person to run into this wall. Dick Gays even had to deal with it. It's putting off a lot new ideas. People take a look at the Ops manual, see that you have to be a recognised manufacturer, and don't feel like dropping 250K to open a factory just to play around with some designs. As you said, PD, Aerodyne etc don't sprout out of the ground fully formed. They started with some young guys messing around. The rules we have at the moment are completely preventing any kind of innovation, and I bet it wasn't done or purpose either. I don't think STC realise this.

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Now you know how we felt as colonist back in 1776. Every one stand up and revolt against this terrorny! The Nylon must be free! Give us altitude or give us death! Fly free or die!

Ha, I'm stealing that!

RiggerLee

And I have no doubt that many of us with a thousand or more jumps would be happy to jump the shit out of it for you. But honestly after a couple dozen jumps I think I would have a pretty good grasp on the canopy and would be able to tell you if it had any really bad characteristics. At that point I would say that it was past the first phase of it's testing. and could be passed on to almost any experienced jumper to continue racking up numbers on it.

That's the plan, except paying for all those experienced slots will be expensive. I think 20, maybe 30 jumps should do. Again, how the BPA think is at all practical boggles my mind.

[Quagmirian 40]

Between coming up with a plan and quietly fuming, I've started work on the next prototype. I've turned my bedroom into a cutting floor and it's much less stuffy than a damp basement. I've already cut out most of the ribs, and the other parts shouldn't take too long once I've made the patterns.

[inline DSCF1179_small.jpg]

New warning label that I don't think I've shown yet:

[inline DSCF1123_small.jpg]

Once I get used to my machine (I haven't been practising much), it should all go together pretty quickly.

[JerryBaumchen 1,434]

Hi Quag,

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New warning label

To me, it looks like you are now a manufacturer.



Jerry Baumchen

PS) Maybe you should develop an order form; that should set those old fudds at the BPA back on their heels.

[RiggerLee 61]

So have you put any more thought into the Slat idea?

Interesting looking rib. Maybe it's just the perspective but it looks like you've moved your point of maximum thickness farther forward. Really round there at the A line. Any particular reason behind that?

And I think the gold looks cool.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[Quagmirian 40]

RiggerLee

So have you put any more thought into the Slat idea?

I have, as it happens. I've also been looking back at Dick Gays' slots. I think there could be some merit to the idea, especially in the BASE environment.

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Interesting looking rib. Maybe it's just the perspective but it looks like you've moved your point of maximum thickness farther forward. Really round there at the A line. Any particular reason behind that?

And I think the gold looks cool.

Lee

The camera lies! The rib is basically the same, just a bit fatter. The fabric is also neon orange rather than gold.

[Quagmirian 40]

Not too much to report on.

We're getting closer to being able to jump my grey thing. I'm thinking the attitude at the next STC will be quite different (only 3 weeks to go).

With the orange thing, I'm making great progress. I got all my parts cut out in a record 10 days, and I'm learning more about my proper sewing machine and actually starting to like it. I still don't know how to change bobbin tension, but v tapes are a breeze and there are some cool little things like being able to see how much bobbin thread is left just be sliding open the cover.

[inline stab_small.jpg]

[inline v_tapes_small.jpg]

[RiggerLee 61]

I don't recall exactly what you have but the way this generally works is Their is a rotary hook that turns. Setting in the canter of the hook is the bobbin case. It's free setting in the middle of the hook held in the race by a little curved plate by screws. a small tap on it's side is held by the throat plate to keep if from turning. Their should be a little looseness and play their.

If you turn the machine slowly by hand, Machine off and motor run down, you should be able to see a small leaf spring on the side of the case which sits in the hook. The thread comes out of the case through a slot and goes under this leaf spring. There are two screws that hold the spring on the side of the bobbin case. The one at the end actually ankers the spring. The one in the middle closest to where the thread comes out pulls down on the bow in this curved spring controlling the force on the thread. This is the bobbin thread tension. It's a small adjustment. Don't turn it more then about 1/4 turn at a time. But you want it to run as low as possible with out fucking up and getting ugly. Run both tensions as low as you can reliable balance them. for some thing like a canopy seam. You don't want more shrinkage then you have to. When you sew tape or over stacked tapes you'll have to turn up the top tension some but you'll get the hang of how much.

Can somebody post a pic for him?

Get a tape foot at the very least. And maybe an upturn folder to go with it. Tape coming from a pule on the top of the machine or hang it on a shaft from the ceiling.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[Quagmirian 40]

If you could just circle it in red or something

[inline DSCF1218_small.jpg]

[gowlerk 2,249]

Just look at where the thread comes out of the bobbin case. You will see that it has to pass under a thin piece of steel that is screwed to the bobbin case. That thin piece is a spring, and there are two small screws in it. The one at the end just holds it in place, the one closer to the middle adjusts the tension on the spring. That is your thread tension screw.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.