PhillyKev 0 #176 March 18, 2003 Quote He gassed 60,000 Kurds... No government propaganda there.. The fact that that info is being used as a reason for the war 15 years after it happened, and after we already went to war once with him is the epitomy of propaganda. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygal3 0 #177 March 18, 2003 Well, to kind of veer off subject here, but not really..What was sad was this morning, being in my office when my friend received her last phone call from her 19 year old son before we go to war. He is a Marine, he is on the front line, and he had 5 minutes to tell her he loves her. Hearing what she was saying to him, and then seeing her fall apart when he hung up the phone had me in tears. That is what is sad, and that is happening all over our country right now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OmriMon 0 #178 March 18, 2003 tnx guys, i appreciate all ur kind words. i hope things will work out for the best and if not, it's been fun knowing and partyin with ya'llblue ones Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #179 March 18, 2003 Quote The fact that that info is being used as a reason for the war 15 years after it happened, and after we already went to war once with him is the epitomy of propaganda. No kidding. Someone should invade us! How many innocent people have we killed?! (didn't we drop a really big bomb on a city one time? Oh wait! We did it twice!) How many "Freedom Fighters" (terrorists) have we funded?! We have WMDs! Lots of them!! We used black people as slaves, and we've even put our own citizens in "Internment Camps"! And if you're so worried about the poor Kurds: Quote United Nations tells us that 1.4 million Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the sanctions, which is three thousand times more than the number of Kurds who supposedly died of gassing at the hands of Saddam. And we don't even know that he used gas anyway! In a 1990 Pentagon report: Quote Excerpt, Chapter 5 U.S. SECURITY AND IRAQI POWER Introduction. Throughout the war the United States practiced a fairly benign policy toward Iraq. Although initially disapproving of the invasion, Washington came slowly over to the side of Baghdad. Both wanted to restore the status quo ante to the Gulf and to reestablish the relative harmony that prevailed there before Khomeini began threatening the regional balance of power. Khomenini’s revolutionary appeal was anathema to both Baghdad and Washington; hence they wanted to get rid of him. United by a common interest, Iraq and the United States restored diplomatic relations in 1984, and the United States began to actively assist Iraq in ending the fighting. It mounted Operation Staunch, an attempt to stem the flow of arms to Iran. It also increased its purchases of Iraqi oil while cutting back on Iranian oil purchases, and it urged its allies to do likewise. All this had the effect of repairing relations between the two countries, which had been at a very low ebb. In September 1988, however -- a month after the war had ended -- the State Department abruptly, and in what many viewed as a sensational manner, condemned Iraq for allegedly using chemicals against its Kurdish population. The incident cannot be understood without some background of Iraq’s relations with the Kurds. It is beyond the scope of this study to go deeply into this matter; suffice it to say that throughout the war Iraq effectively faced two enemies -- Iran and the elements of its own Kurdish minority. Significant numbers of the Kurds had launched a revolt against Baghdad and in the process teamed up with Tehran. As soon as the war with Iran ended, Iraq announced its determination to crush the Kurdish insurrection. It sent Republican Guards to the Kurdish area, and in the course of this operation -- according to the U.S. State Department -- gas was used, with the result that numerous Kurdish civilians were killed. The Iraqi government denied that any such gassing had occurred. Nonetheless, Secretary of State Schultz stood by U.S. accusations, and the U.S. Congress, acting on its own, sought to impose economic sanctions on Baghdad as a violator of the Kurds’ human rights. Having looked at all of the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department’s claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds -- in Turkey where they had gone for asylum -- failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. We would have expected, in a matter as serious as this, that the Congress would have exercised some care. However, passage of the sanctions measure through the Congress was unusually swift -- at least in the Senate where a unanimous vote was secured within 24 hours. Further, the proposed sanctions were quite draconian (and will be discussed in detail below). Fortunately for the future of Iraqi-U.S. ties, the sanctions measure failed to pass on a bureaucratic technicality (it was attached as a rider to a bill that died before adjournment). It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, the Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraqi-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing a great many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds. Thus, in our view, the Congress acted more on the basis of emotionalism than factual information, and without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects of its action. As a result of the outcome of the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq is now the most powerful state in the Persian Gulf, an area in which we have vital interests. To maintain an uninterrupted flow of oil from the Gulf to the West, we need to develop good working relations with all of the Gulf states, and particularly with Iraq, the strongest. cit cot cit cot cit cot it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misskriss 0 #180 March 18, 2003 it is sad....this is this is how my little girls looked the morning they had to say goodbye to their Dad before he deployed last time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #181 March 18, 2003 ouch....that's heart wrenching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #182 March 18, 2003 I feel you MissKriss.... I thank you for your and your families SACRIFICE.. As that is EXACTLY what is was and is... Thank you so very much... Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misskriss 0 #183 March 18, 2003 Thanks, Rhino........the children do make the true sacrifice.....I signed up for the duty when I married into the military. It's hard to answer when they ask.." will my Daddy get killed..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,067 #184 March 18, 2003 >o.k. let's wait until he is at full strength and boobie ;) trapped >the whole country. Then let's go in when it is the most dangerious? No, continue disarming him, wait until WE are at full strength, then go in. I suspect you don't really know what's going on in Iraq; I don't either. One person does - Hans Blix. He's there, and has people working to find out, in great detail, what is going on. I'm going to take his word over yours. In any case, it doesn't matter much; there will be war whether it's a good idea or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenniferh 0 #185 March 18, 2003 Hi Mrs. lowpullin - I can't imagine what you must be going through right now with your husband gone overseas and your baby due any day now. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family for a safe reunion and a healthy delivery. --Jennifer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #186 March 18, 2003 Quote By the way Robert...I hate cheap attire. My work clothing is custom tailored for me by Cerutti in Milan, my shoes are made to measure by Vasz in Budapest, I design my shirts myself and have them tailored in Poland, made of Egyptian cotton. I drink good French and Italian wines and smoke Cuban cigars...you see I like to pamper myself. You chose your way of earning a living, I chose mine. Yo each according to his own abilities, so don't boast baby Ah, your dropzone attire would fit in well. In fact, when you finally reach 200 show up in your "work" clothes so we may throw you in the swoop pond along with your Ferrari. I'm sure your employees love you as well. Obviously, your abilities and bank account are beyond the reach of us mortal skydivers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #187 March 18, 2003 As a teenager I once had a discussion with an East German Communist Youth (FDJ) activist. He was completely deaf to the world, blindly trusting his leaders and completely convinced that East Germany and Communism are the best. I asked him where it was bette, it the US or the USSR. He said that by all means the USSR. The sad part was he has never been to either and yet he made a strong declaration. He also used words like DUTY, SACRIFICE, SERVICE, COUNTRY a lot.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #188 March 18, 2003 Quote Don't be fooled, and don't buy into government propaganda. How about "Don't be fooled, and don't buy into media propaganda?" Lots of spinners at work out there folks all with their agendas. You have to separate the truth from each data stream...not just the one's you agree with! Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #189 March 18, 2003 What in the hell are you talking about? Do you have a point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enrique 0 #190 March 18, 2003 Quote Quote ***Iraq (in a matter of days, I might add) to democracy. Um, isn't Iraq already a constitutional republic? Seems to me I recall Sadam being "voted" in...or am I confused? It's been known to happen..... Um, then why does the U.S. want him to abdicate? Isn't he consider an evil dictator of some sort? Isn't that the new reason behind this war? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #191 March 18, 2003 Quote Quote By the way Robert...I hate cheap attire. My work clothing is custom tailored for me by Cerutti in Milan, my shoes are made to measure by Vasz in Budapest, I design my shirts myself and have them tailored in Poland, made of Egyptian cotton. I drink good French and Italian wines and smoke Cuban cigars...you see I like to pamper myself. You chose your way of earning a living, I chose mine. Yo each according to his own abilities, so don't boast baby Ah, your dropzone attire would fit in well. In fact, when you finally reach 200 show up in your "work" clothes so we may throw you in the swoop pond along with your Ferrari. I'm sure your employees love you as well. Obviously, your abilities and bank account are beyond the reach of us mortal skydivers. Sorry, my car is British and has been in the swoop pond several times already...so, no beer here. My jump suit is also made to measure....by Tony Suits...besides I run through the swoop pond naked. Any questions?jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #192 March 18, 2003 Quote I run through the swoop pond naked. Any questions? Please no...too much info already Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enrique 0 #193 March 18, 2003 Quote it is sad....this is this is how my little girls looked the morning they had to say goodbye to their Dad before he deployed last time. Events like this (the one in the pic) are the ones that make me think twice about supporting the war. And by the way, I DON'T SUPPORT IRAQ, SH, OR TERRORISM IN ANY WAY.... I just feel sad for little kids and families that suffer from war... on either side of the battlefield. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enrique 0 #194 March 18, 2003 There are no true winners in war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misskriss 0 #195 March 18, 2003 Quote on either side of the battlefield. Agreed... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #196 March 18, 2003 Quote How about "Don't be fooled, and don't buy into media propaganda?" I don't think the media is as responsible for spinning stories as their sources. Yeah, the media can and does add bias, but a lot of what they're reporting is just what our government is telling us. A good example is the "100,000 of his own people gassed" which keeps being repeated over and over.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpullin1 0 #197 March 18, 2003 ok I'm going to try and be nice about this and DON'T anyone think That I'm am trying to make u feel SORRY for me because that IS NOT the case.BUT this CRAP about A PAYCHECK is just that CRAP!!!My husband DOES not and DID not sign up for a freaking PAY CHECK!THIS so called pay check is only 2 months behind.Yeah he will get paid for being over there but WE would be much better off if he was here working at his regular job getting his PAYCHECKS on time!SORRY I WILL TRY NOT TO POST ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS SUBJECT!!! "It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys." My Website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #198 March 18, 2003 Quote SORRY I WILL TRY NOT TO POST ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS SUBJECT!!! please don't be sorry for posting your feelings. I think it is good for everybody to see the many facets of this conflict. I wish you all the luck and strength possible and hope that your husband will safely return to you as I do for all the families of those soldiers fighting on all sides of this conflict. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,067 #199 March 18, 2003 >SORRY I WILL TRY NOT TO POST ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS SUBJECT!!! Please don't be sorry about posting this; you have as much right as anyone else to post here. More right, in a lot of ways; you have every right to defend what your husband does in the face of some fool who thinks he knows your husband better than you do. May he (and all the other servicemen out there fighting in our name) come home safely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #200 March 18, 2003 Bill sweetheart...did you loose your temper? I have my beliefs and convictions. They are no worse than those of other people. I do not claim to know someone better than others. I am astonished at the reaction I got, but since I got it this is the reality: There is no military draft in the United States. Everybody who serves in the armed forces does so voluntarily. They do it for a paycheck. Unless you were drafted or serve for free, don't brag about it. If you leave your family and go to war that is a choice you made when you enlisted. I feel for the families of the people sent overseas. I hope all out troops return home safe and sound. These are the standards that I would have set for myself. If I were in the military it would not have been a sacrifice but my JOB! I view my oppinion, but tolerance is most important to me, so call me a fool.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
