rhino 0 #1 March 10, 2003 http://www.msnbc.com/news/883129.asp?0sl=-22 It's getting better... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #2 March 10, 2003 yes it's getting closer by the minute... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #3 March 10, 2003 Notice nuggets are starting to get thrown at us... I bet there is more.. Much more... Tic.. Toc.. Tic.. Toc.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #4 March 10, 2003 QuoteIt's getting better... This is better? You really do want to go to war, don't you? If the news reported that all the evidence needed to prove that he has been complying with the disarming demands, would you say "ok, let's all go home!"?it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #5 March 10, 2003 I wouldnt say it's getting better... but I'm not shocked that inspectors are finding more stuff. did anyone really think SH was telling the truth? it is indeed getting closer... for better or worse, closer -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #6 March 10, 2003 Unfortunately it's an unconfirmed report, and after we misled the UN about the Iraqis nuclear program it's going to be a tough sell. There is a man who is currently inspecting Iraq, Hans Blix, who is probably going to be believed over someone 4000 miles away from the action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #7 March 10, 2003 Here is why the french and Russians won't play ball.. Air force Iraq’s air force, though greatly diminished since 1991, remains untested against the West. Iraq apparently thought its air fleet could survive coalition bombardments in hardened shelters – an error that cost Iraq many air wings. Many of its aircraft fled to Iran during the Gulf War to escape destruction on the ground. It remains a mystery to U.S. commanders why Saddam’s air force did not stay and fight, given the formidable capabilities of its aircraft. Some of this punch remains: Mirage F-1: Iraq operates about 50 of these French built interceptors – a modern and extremely capable aircraft. F1s were credited with several of the Iraqi air victories of the first Gulf War. At Mach 2.2, the F1 is faster than most American aircraft and its Matra Magic missiles are equal to many in the U.S. arsenal. The F1 also can be fitted with bombs or Exocet anti-shipping missiles. MiG-23/25: Iraq operates about 45 MiG-23s and a handful of more capable MiG-25s, both of them the premier fighter aircraft of their respective generations in the Soviet arsenal. MiG-25s, in particular, gave the U.S. Air Force some trouble in the first Gulf War because of their enormous speed -- Mach 2.6 -- and rate of climb. MiG-29: The front-line Soviet interceptor when the empire collapsed, this aircraft is similar – and in fact, superior, in some ways, to the F-15Cs flown by the U.S. Air Force. Particularly at close range, the Soviet-designed aircraft has better weapons sighting and maneuverability. Iraq is believed to have 10 or fewer in service. Su-25 Fencer: A durable 1970s vintage Soviet ground-attack aircraft. It is armed with one twin barrel 30mm gun in the bottom of the fuselage with 250 rounds. There are 8 pylons under the wings that can carry about 4,000 kg of air-to-ground weapons, including 57mm to 330mm rockets. Su-24 Frogfoot: This Cold Warrior was designed for the same mission as the U.S. F-111s and British Tornados that wreaked havoc on Iraq in 1991: destroying radars and air bases. The Frogfoot is regarded as the equal of these aircraft, though obviously lacks their networked avionics and precision munitions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #8 March 10, 2003 That makes about as much sense as saying that we were afraid to follow him back to Baghdad in 1991 because of all the US-built Stinger missiles he has, or that we're afraid of him now because he has US-built bombs and howitzers that Saudi Arabia sold him, or that we won't fight because we gave him billions in aid in the mid-80s. Think, man! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tasadin 0 #9 March 10, 2003 The problem is what's going to be the straw that brakes the camels back. How much loger are France, Russia and Germany going to dither before they see the light??? "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #10 March 10, 2003 Quote Think, man! Bill: that has me rotflmao!!!!! Thx Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diver123 0 #11 March 10, 2003 No one in their "right" mind wants war... Although your question was not directed to me, it was stated in a public forum so I'll ad my answer in the form of an opinion: You wrote; "If the news reported that all the evidence needed to prove that he has been complying withe the disarming demands, would you say "ok, let's all go home!"? Hell yes! And I'd probably follow that up with a weekend retreat celebrating the fact that we avoided a war. However, that's not the case and it won't be. Since we're on the subject of asking questions, how about this one: Can YOU look in the mirror and honestly say that he's NOT in breech of the resolution passed by the U.N. ? And since you cannot (honestly anyway), why is it so difficult for you to hold them accountable? "pull high! It's lower than you think..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #12 March 10, 2003 Quote How much loger are France, Russia and Germany going to dither before they see the light??? How long before you do? ____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #13 March 10, 2003 I'm keeping an open mind Rhino, but I'm getting all sorts of errors from your link. What's it all about? all I get... Microsoft VBScript compilation error '800a0401' Expected end of statement /ads/spot/spot_mgr.inc, line 25 getSpotLightMap="" -----------------------------------------------------^-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #14 March 10, 2003 QuoteUnfortunately it's an unconfirmed report, and after we misled the UN about the Iraqis nuclear program it's going to be a tough sell. There is a man who is currently inspecting Iraq, Hans Blix, who is probably going to be believed over someone 4000 miles away from the action. Fortunately, it is a confirmed report, and was part of the report that Hans Blix was summarizing on Friday. Details here. Not only does Hans Blix's report identify a tape of cluster munitions being tested in their effectiveness of dispersing chemical agents, it also identifies the finding of a drone designed to be a delivery platform. On top of that, the report also states that the drones (a violation of 1441) were not declared within the initial 30 days (another violation). More details about what was found are noted here.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #15 March 10, 2003 Yeah..that's what I get too. Maybe Iraq sabotaged the website so we can't find out the truth!!! Yeah, I can't find any evidence that they didn't so that MUST be what happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #16 March 10, 2003 Somber thought... I have a close friend that is flying commecical chatrers with millitary on board to the mid-east. This weekend several medic / MASH type units were on board... In the hold among other things were 5000lbs. of nerve agent anti-toxins...8000lbs. of ammo...10,000lbs of body bags. Kind puts thing a bit in perspective. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #17 March 10, 2003 Quote Mirage F-1: Iraq operates about 50 of these French built interceptors – a modern and extremely capable aircraft. Bah. It's crap. Not because it's French (it was the preferred platform of the IAF for a long time), but because it's an antique. With upgraded avionics and weapons, any old jet can be a tiger again, but somehow I doubt ol' Saddam has been getting the factory mods and advisories... Quote MiG-23/25: Iraq operates about 45 MiG-23s 'nother fossil. Quote MiG-29: Iraq is believed to have 10 or fewer in service. Only decent fighter the Russians ever made, IMHO. Good enough for the Luftwaffe, too, which kept them on after "inheriting" them from the Osties, but using them in a strictly "Red Flag" role. The Mig-29 has excellent manueverability; in short-range engagements it's reputed to be almost unbeatable, but then again, a skilled pilot makes all the difference. Iraqi pilots can probably take off and land (maybe). Quote Su-25 Fencer: A durable 1970s vintage Soviet ground-attack aircraft. It is armed with one twin barrel 30mm gun in the bottom of the fuselage with 250 rounds. There are 8 pylons under the wings that can carry about 4,000 kg of air-to-ground weapons, including 57mm to 330mm rockets. Frogfoot, actually. Think "Thunderboltski", and you'll have the idea. Basically a flying war wagon. A formidible punch, but vulnerable due to the low altitudes it works at. Quote Su-24 Frogfoot: This Cold Warrior was designed for the same mission as the U.S. F-111s and British Tornados that wreaked havoc on Iraq in 1991: destroying radars and air bases. The Frogfoot is regarded as the equal of these aircraft, though obviously lacks their networked avionics and precision munitions. Actually, the Fencer (think "Aardvarkski"). The British found out the hard way in PGW1 that their low-level runway attacks were just getting planes shot down. Part of this was due to misapplied doctrine. The Tornado crews trained for Europe, where they could approach a target by skimming hills and valleys to evade observation, using poor European weather to hide in. Didn't work in bright, sunny, FLAT Iraq. They switched to high-altitude attacks after losing a few crews, but had to press old RAF Buccaneers into service in order for the Tornados to drop PGM, since the Bucs were equipped with laser pods, but ironically, the Tornados weren't. Edits for grammar and photo links. Edit for Tornado doctrine commentary."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #18 March 10, 2003 Somber thought... I have a close friend that is flying commecical chatrers with millitary on board to the mid-east. This weekend several medic / MASH type units were on board... In the hold among other things were 5000lbs. of nerve agent anti-toxins...8000lbs. of ammo...10,000lbs of body bags. Kind puts thing a bit in perspective. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #19 March 10, 2003 Quote nly decent fighter the Russians ever made What about the Su-27 and 37? The 37 could fly around any US jet you could throw at it.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #20 March 10, 2003 Speaking of the French and upgrading French aircraft, check out what The French are up to. Everybody has their bedfellows. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #21 March 10, 2003 QuoteQuote nly decent fighter the Russians ever made What about the Su-27 and 37? The 37 could fly around any US jet you could throw at it. Flight performance isn't the only factor. Take in things like maintainability (how reliable it is, how quickly it can be turned around, etc.), and a different picture appears. According to the Germans, the Mig-29 (at least their Block of aircraft - they got some of the early ones) aren't flightline fixable like Western planes and have short, short legs, but are a dandy to fly. See, those clever Mikoyan bastards put a helmet-mounted weapon-sighting system in that thing, sort of like what we do with helicopters. That gives the 29 the ability to engage targets at really goofy angles, by fighter standards."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #22 March 10, 2003 It's still damn impressive the manouvers that plane can do.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #23 March 10, 2003 QuoteCan YOU look in the mirror and honestly say that he's NOT in breech of the resolution passed by the U.N. ? And since you cannot (honestly anyway), why is it so difficult for you to hold them accountable? All I'm saying is you can't just assume because it's on the news that it's correct. Most of the stuff the news is reporting, is coming from our government who is trying to raise support for an assault anyway. And to be honest, I could give a shit less if he's in breech of the resolutions. So he has a drone/missles that can go 300 miles... whoopdy-shit.... once he has some that is closer to 6,000 miles, I'll start to worry.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #24 March 10, 2003 Mike...from your link. "The officials identified the purchaser of the parts as the Al Tamoor Trading Co., based in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. " Its a bit like saying the US gov is responsible for selling stingers directly to the baddies. Its inflammatory reporting at best.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #25 March 10, 2003 Thanks Wildblue. At least i'm not the only one thinking this ____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
