Is this the right place to swoop? (was: Swooper near miss video)

[steelyeye 0]

Before I get flamed on too badly, I was not there and don't know the jumper involved. I am not in the camp of banning all the swoopers or relegating them to their own landing area in the back 40. I am just all for intelligent choice of where to swoop.

For those of you that can not open this link, a summary from my viewpoint - highly wingloaded canopy pilot executes a blind 180 swooping into an area next to a tent crowded with spectators. Misses several groups of spectators by feet. Several spectators appear to not see him coming. By all appearances, the canopy pilot is a highly experienced and very proficient swooper.

My point is - why do this? There were plenty of other areas to safely swoop and land. Other than going for the "cool" points, why would you endanger spectators in this way? If any of the spectators he closely misses had turned and started walking to his left, I highly doubt he could have reacted in time.

I am all for swooping - swoop away, but do it in an area where a mistiming or misjudgement on your part won't hurt anyone else - especially a spectator on the ground. Can't we stop encouraging and glorifying stupidly risky behavior?

Inflamatory language, I know, but with all the discussion about canopy safety, I think we need to condemn this kind of action. Not a big fan of rules and regulations, but as a community we need to control our own actions and point out where others make poor decisions.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=6108
http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=6108

"Better a has-been than a never-was. Better a never-was than a never-tried-to-be..."

[AFFI 0]

Quote

as a community we need to control our own actions

We are talking about skydivers right???

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[steelyeye 0]

AFFI - as always, your comments make me smile, even when I am grumpy!

"Better a has-been than a never-was. Better a never-was than a never-tried-to-be..."

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

In my opinion that swoop was not even close to what I would call a near miss. Also your definition of a "crowded" landing area seems to differ from what I would consider a crowded landing area.

That said I agree with your statement that landing in areas with no spectators is always a better option for jumpers. It really doesn't matter if the jumpers are swoopers or not.

In the future you might want to get some input from people who do swoop before stirring the pot.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[rehmwa 2]

I've landed in that exact spot. Surfed that same lane from both directions. It's the loading tent at Couch Freaks. I can see my camper during his set up

1 - these aren't spectators, they are skydivers and staff. The wuffo spectators are behind a fence at that boogie in a completely different area. This is a common landing lane area and used the entire boogie.

2 - During the speedier swoop portion, I don't think there was a single person within 40 feet of Doug. There were 4 or 5 people 'beyond' the finish of his swoop. And people under the tent.

3 - I've seen Doug do things under canopy (though rarely) that I don't like. This swoop is not one of them. It was excellent and 100% safe. It's a GOOD example of landing location choice.


I think swooping close to crowds is the most selfish stupid thing a skydiver can do. I've seen a skydiver consistently have to lift his feet to avoid wuffos as he fiddles with his toggles inputs during a swoop. I've seen jumpers scream around the corner of buildings used as pylons. I've seen two jumpers swoop straight at each other trying to swoop between two trees where one bails and then they go up and do it again and again. (these were noted as the "experience swoopers" in the "experienced landing area" at this particular WI DZ). Numberous canopies hitting tree branches.....

But this example is NOT an example of that - and those that complain about this type of example are hurting the cause, not helping.


I hope this provides more info into that video.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[steelyeye 0]

It does provide more information and thank you for your calm and reasoned response. As I said, I was not there, and don't know the jumper. Clearly he is an superior canopy pilot and I have no doubt that his judgement is usually unimpeachable. Not meaning to attack him personally, just bringing up the question of why swoop into an area where there is any danger of hitting someone?

I also changed the title to more accurately reflect my concern (from “Swooper near miss” to “Is this the right place to swoop?” – you are right – less inflammatory and more accurate).

My concern for swooping into a crowded area (and your opinion and mine may differ on what defines crowded) remains. I still don't see that in this particular instance he had many opportunities to "bail out" if things went wrong. I'll confine my swooping (as junior varsity as it is) to very clear landing areas where I can only potentially hurt myself.

Not sure that the fact that the people standing around the landing area are jumpers makes that much difference - One moment of inattention and they are in the swooper's path. Clearly there are up-jumpers heading towards the loading tent, but one instance of "Oops, forgot my goggles" and they could wind up in his path.

Replaying it over and over, I gotta disagree with you on the distances involved. Maybe 10 feet (more like 4), but not 40, to the people sitting on the ground (and not in a very good position to get out of the way if something went wrong). But that is probably quibbling over distances that won't advance the discussion.

Thanks again for the additional information, your reasoned posts and comments make me value your opinion and judgement on a variety of skydiving issues.

"Better a has-been than a never-was. Better a never-was than a never-tried-to-be..."

[rehmwa 2]

looked at it again, saw the early people you were talking about 10 ft

still gotta disagree, there is nothing wrong with that landing - but maybe because I've seen some really bad stuff just gets shrugged off- or maybe because I'm very familiar with that exact landing strip and the local people (on that day).

I'll look for some examples you can really sink your teeth into and send to you - because your topic itself is a very important one

edit: Actually, let's flesh it out a bit more

1 - the 'big' landing area is to the front and left of where he finished - about a half football field away in front of the wuffo bleachers and fence.

2 - to swoop there, is to land with a bunch of small aircraft DZ types (about 22 of them or more, all with little practice being in the air and landing with more than 4 others)

3 - to land to the right is the taxi way and runway - that's a no no

4 - most people that go to that point are there to watch the high speed approaches and many have cameras. SOme are waiting for friends to land. It is a designated landing area as well. I can't tell in the vid who's doing what, but that's normal.

IF one is to surf, that's about the best choice.

Of course the alternative is to just not. But that strip is used for that purpose about every year (separates normal pattern from the faster pattern)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[steelyeye 0]

Thank you very much, that paints a very different picture of the video. With that information, especially the challenges of landing in the main landing area, I have a much better appreciation of the situation. Still leery of the proximity to people who clearly had no idea he was there (at the end of the swoop), but understand the picture. It is easy just to flame on folks, but you put the extra effort into the discussion and I appreciate it.

"Better a has-been than a never-was. Better a never-was than a never-tried-to-be..."

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

If a person looks at the video at 25 seconds, it clearly shows all of the people more or less lined up in a row and at 32/33 seconds it shows the jumper just steps from the road. I point this out in an effort to show pretty significant distance between the jumper and the non-jumpers. It also shows that there were plenty of outs for the jumper ie different lanes that could have been used. Depth perception can be tricky in a video but the cars give clues as to just how big a space there is in that area.

Come out to couchfreaks and make a judgement about that landing area in person.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

I am all for swooping - swoop away, but do it in an area where a mistiming or misjudgement on your part won't hurt anyone else - especially a spectator on the ground. Can't we stop encouraging and glorifying stupidly risky behavior?

Totally! I was walking back from a jump one day towards a hanger and one of those evil swoopers buzzed by me and scared the crap out of me. Made me drop and lose my joint, which really made my next jump not so fun.

I really think swoopers should land on the runway with the planes. They can wear those shoes with the wheels in the heels and get really killer surf on the pavement.

[deadbug 0]

Thanks for posting my Vid....I think Actually lots of outs there. The people standing there are all jumpers and that area is used for swooping quite a bit. The only people I pass are towards the end of my swoop when I'm going much slower. With all the recent canopy issues I understand your concern. Swooping on every load is not a right. Knowing when to swoop and when to lay off is very important and I do try to practice that philosophy. On that jump however no one was at risk on the ground or in the air. My group was first out and I landed well before anyone else on the load so there was no other traffic at my altitude. See ya at couch in 4 days!!!! I'll be the one swooping the lane.....when conditions permit of course.

[hookitt 1]

I disagree with you.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Derekbox 0]

Hello.... thats couch freaks, that swoop as dangerous as it may or may not be is probably the safer of what is going on there...

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I disagree with you

Yeah, me too. However, keep in mind that the OP's avatar appears to be him jumping a Para-Commander, so his 'swoop judgement' may be a little off.

[deadbug 0]

Quote

Hello.... thats couch freaks, that swoop as dangerous as it may or may not be is probably the safer of what is going on there...

You want danger, try the hot tub at 1am. Just be sure to bring along a minnow scoop to clean out all the big chunks before ya get in.