sfc 1 #76 February 18, 2003 Quote Quote The Brits have 16 Air Assault Brigade, 3 Commando Brigade and 7 Armoured Brigade plus support units en route to a sandy location. They will share the same dangers as the US servicemen for similar reasons and they don't have decent gear. Thankyou, some of the other posts are a little naive when they suggest that the US is the only country in the world doing anything and that everyone should be eternally grateful for it. Can't wait for the movies about this war, "The USA saves the world", or "The USA beats Saddam". Don't tell me, some of you believed hollywood version of the U-571 where all contributions of the non-american allies was removed. A Brit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #77 February 18, 2003 >We sit here and argue endlessly saying the same shit over and over >again and I haven't seen a single person on her be open minded enough > to change their views. I dunno about that. I've learned a lot from talking to some of the people here, even if I don't agree with them. There are some very smart people on this board. I've even learned a bit from the more extreme factions on both sides, although reading them is often more like watching a tennis match than a discussion. Even if people don't change their minds, if they read some of these threads, they may learn a bit about the background and the reality of what's going on in the middle east - and I see that as a good result. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christopherm 0 #78 February 18, 2003 Yeah you are right. I've learned a lot too. I think about %1000 of the people on here are smarter than me so it's like you yeah Bill's point is really good, oh Rhino's point is really good.... Dammit! and pull my hair out. -So, how hard is the ground?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #79 February 18, 2003 Quote Even if people don't change their minds, if they read some of these threads, they may learn a bit about the background and the reality of what's going on in the middle east - and I see that as a good result. *piping up from political thread semi-lurker status* I've learned a lot from these ongoing discussions. I don't watch TV or read the newspapers; most of what I know about the war comes from you guys discussing it here. It's been especially enlightening for me to read the viewpoints of people from around the world. So even though you sometimes drive me crazy , my thanks to all of you for airing your views. You're way better than the evening news. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enrique 0 #80 February 18, 2003 Quote not every Californian is a gay, crazy, left wing radical environmentalist. Now, now, Lisa. Don't lie to the nice people in this forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #81 February 18, 2003 "I dunno about that. I've learned a lot from talking to some of the people here, even if I don't agree with them. There are some very smart people on this board. I've even learned a bit from the more extreme factions on both sides, although reading them is often more like watching a tennis match than a discussion." Agreed with all this, I like seeing myself as others see me.... I'm all for civilised debate, its how we form our opinions. What has pissed me off recently is a whole pile of nasty name calling and mud slinging, from both sides. I find this does not actually contribute to the debate. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #82 February 18, 2003 QuoteQuoteIt's the soldier, not the politician, who goes in harms's way at the politician's bidding. Are you trying to dig on soldiers now? No - it was obvious that I was digging at politicians.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #83 February 18, 2003 Quote QuoteBTW, most Brits don't consider themselves particularly protected by US servicemen. I was referring to WWII. You know, that little conflict in Europe a while back...the one that my grandfather fought in, the one that quite a few of the males in my family fought in. The one that would have left Europe speaking German if it wasn't for the Americans! Ahem - the Russians killed and captured more Germans than all other allied nations combined. The US contributed about 1/6 of the troops in the ETO. Germany had about 5 times as many troops on the eastern front than on the western front. The factor that won WWII in the ETO was Hitler's mismanagement of the eastern front. The German army was already in a shambles there before a single US combat unit was engaged in Europe. I'm sure someone will criticize me for being anti-American, but if you insist on repeating the Hollywood version of history, what can you expect?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #84 February 18, 2003 I'm extremely thankful that the US gave logistic support to the UK all through WW2 even before the US officially declared war on Germany. There were pilots from all nations, US, Canada, France, Poland, Norway to name but a few that fought and defended the UK during the Battle of Britain 1940. Russia decimated the Germans on the Eastern front but we needed the US to win in Europe. Lets not froget that the US also bore the brunt of the fighting in the Pacific. I think there's enough going on just now that we don't need to dwell on the past. That was a poor moment in European history. It's over, let's be grateful it's over and move on. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #85 February 18, 2003 QuoteAhem - the Russians killed and captured more Germans than all other allied nations combined. The US contributed about 1/6 of the troops in the ETO. Germany had about 5 times as many troops on the eastern front than on the western front. The factor that won WWII in the ETO was Hitler's mismanagement of the eastern front. The German army was already in a shambles there before a single US combat unit was engaged in Europe. I'm sure someone will criticize me for being anti-American, but if you insist on repeating the Hollywood version of history, what can you expect? Since we're jumpers, I'll jump in... Air power had a lot to do with. Russians in American planes. And it's okay that you are anti-American. The United States will even allow some to become citizens. Unknowingly, of course. Home of the free. And like Lou Diamond quotes: "Freedom isn't Free." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #86 February 18, 2003 QuoteAnd it's okay that you are anti-American. The United States will even allow some to become citizens. Unknowingly, of course. Home of the free. And like Lou Diamond quotes: "Freedom isn't Free." I'm trying really hard to fathom how you could say 'And it's okay that you are anti-American'. I've reread what kallend wrote and it seems accurate to me. I'm rather intrigued by your post, could you please elaborate. It seemed rather patronizing and reeked of jingoism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #87 February 18, 2003 QuoteThere were pilots from all nations, US, Canada, France, Poland, Norway to name but a few that fought and defended the UK during the Battle of Britain 1940. And of course there was Group Captain Adolf "Sailor" Malan DSO, DFC from South Africa. Not only did he end the war with 32 kills (plus 2 unconfirmed), his "10 rules for air fighting" were distributed and taught throughout RAF fighter command. He changed the way fighter formations flew and attacked - he was instrumental in the Battle of Britain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #88 February 18, 2003 How many of the "peace marchers" did you see who were demanding Saddam Hussein disarm and get rid of his WMD, stop torturing his people, and respect womens rights? Just wondering....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #89 February 18, 2003 Hmmm, yes, lets save them from torture by bombing them. Makes sense to me... Unfortunately this looks like a no-win situation for the Iraqi people. Either they get invaded and a lot of people die or they continue to live under a psychopathic dictator and a lot of people die. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quatorze 1 #90 February 18, 2003 Quote Hmmm, yes, lets save them from torture by bombing them. Makes sense to me... Unfortunately this looks like a no-win situation for the Iraqi people. Either they get invaded and a lot of people die or they continue to live under a psychopathic dictator and a lot of people die. Hope fully one of those scenarios has a rather quick end while the other would most like just allow the cycle to continue, choice of two evils and all I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #91 February 18, 2003 QuoteQuoteThere were pilots from all nations, US, Canada, France, Poland, Norway to name but a few that fought and defended the UK during the Battle of Britain 1940. And of course there was Group Captain Adolf "Sailor" Malan DSO, DFC from South Africa. Not only did he end the war with 32 kills (plus 2 unconfirmed), his "10 rules for air fighting" were distributed and taught throughout RAF fighter command. He changed the way fighter formations flew and attacked - he was instrumental in the Battle of Britain. Absolutely - the movie "Battle of Britain" has a character based on him, but for some reason they used a different name. There were 5 US pilots who flew in the Battle of Britain too. And a large contingent of Canadians, Poles and Czechs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilivan 0 #92 February 18, 2003 QuoteHow many of the "peace marchers" did you see who were demanding Saddam Hussein disarm and get rid of his WMD, stop torturing his people, and respect womens rights? Just wondering....... Agreed, these things are all very very bad.... But how many other countries have equally appalling human rights records (and in some case WMD), but aren't sitting on huge oil fields? Call me cynical, but the current possibility of war is not due to the moral issues so freely used as public motivaters by the politicians."If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #93 February 18, 2003 QuoteQuoteAhem - the Russians killed and captured more Germans than all other allied nations combined. The US contributed about 1/6 of the troops in the ETO. Germany had about 5 times as many troops on the eastern front than on the western front. The factor that won WWII in the ETO was Hitler's mismanagement of the eastern front. The German army was already in a shambles there before a single US combat unit was engaged in Europe. I'm sure someone will criticize me for being anti-American, but if you insist on repeating the Hollywood version of history, what can you expect? Since we're jumpers, I'll jump in... Air power had a lot to do with. Russians in American planes. And it's okay that you are anti-American. The United States will even allow some to become citizens. Unknowingly, of course. Home of the free. And like Lou Diamond quotes: "Freedom isn't Free." I have nothing at all against Americans or the US - I even chose it for my home, and my son is a sergeant in the US Army (25th Infantry). I DO have something against those who believe history is only what Hollywood shows them - unfortunately this seems to be many Americans under the age of 45 or thereabouts. Can you imagine how irritating it is to Brits who suffered through the London Blitz and who "held the fort" alone for well over a year without being defeated, to be told repeatedly how America saved their ass, and to have movies come out like "U571" that takes a major Polish/British intelligence coup, possibibly the greatest coup of the entire war, and makes it out to be American?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #94 February 18, 2003 >How many of the "peace marchers" did you see who were demanding > Saddam Hussein disarm and get rid of his WMD, stop torturing his > people, and respect womens rights? Disarm: most of them; most of the posters were along the lines of "let inspections work before war." Torturing his people: many, with posters along the lines of "Saddam is bad, war is worse." Respect women's rights: see above Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #95 February 18, 2003 >And it's okay that you are anti-American. He's not; people who disagree with people who consider themselves 'true americans' are not anti-american, unless you believe in LeShan's mythos of war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #96 February 18, 2003 Quote I DO have something against those who believe history is only what Hollywood shows them - unfortunately this seems to be many Americans under the age of 45 or thereabouts. Can you imagine how irritating it is to Brits who suffered through the London Blitz and who "held the fort" alone for well over a year without being defeated, to be told repeatedly how America saved their ass, and to have movies come out like "U571" that takes a major Polish/British intelligence coup, possibibly the greatest coup of the entire war, and makes it out to be American? Now, now. Hollywood isn't entirely to blame here and the Brits have certainly taken liberties with movie history as well. I remember something about breaking The Sound Barrier being a Brit accomplishment and that in order to do it you have to "reverse the controls". But I agree with you. Movies are movies. If you want history, open a history book. (I do however remember something about history being written by the winners though . . .)quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #97 February 18, 2003 QuoteThe one that would have left Europe speaking German if it wasn't for the Americans! Dave -- Americans and others. 39,000 Canadians died in the Second World War. 10 times as many Americans died, but then again, you have 10 times the population. Canada defended Europe, and battled Hitler's armies. Canadians died in Europe. It wasn't just your countrymen who were there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #98 February 18, 2003 QuoteDisarm: most of them; most of the posters were along the lines of "let inspections work before war." Is this how you feel Bill? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quatorze 1 #99 February 18, 2003 QuoteQuoteThe one that would have left Europe speaking German if it wasn't for the Americans! Dave -- Americans and others. 39,000 Canadians died in the Second World War. 10 times as many Americans died, but then again, you have 10 times the population. Canada defended Europe, and battled Hitler's armies. Canadians died in Europe. It wasn't just your countrymen who were there. you're right, there were a lot of countries who took on the cause of the right, as well as in Vietnam, Somalia and the first gulf war, but as always the US gets the blame for any UN screw up. That is getting old fast I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #100 February 18, 2003 >Is this how you feel Bill? I feel that war is sometimes neccessary but should be an absolute last resort. We're not at that point just yet. We may be in the future, if and when the inspections fail (which is likely.) The 5% chance of them succeeding is worth the wait if it saves the lives of 100,000 people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)