Politics, race, and other BS: Bush vs. U of M

[PhillyKev 0]

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Aren't we striving for an equal playing field? Resources need to be thrown at bringing up the educational opportunities in poor areas, rather than propping up the products of those poor educational systems when they hit college age.

True, but until that happens, I don't see anything wrong with giving someone an opportunity to have an equal secondary education when the current status of primary education could prevent them from that. They're going to have to work just as hard as everyone else at school to get the grades. It's giving them a little boost to get their foot in the door. The only other viable alternative to promote fairness would be to have separate, culturally designed admissions test. I think giving the same test with a handicap is a better option.

[happythoughts 0]

I am not sure that I would categorize Pres Bush as a racist for trying to get rid of racial preferences. His brother Jeb has been doing the same thing as gov. of Florida.

For those of you who don't know, Jeb is married to Columba, a native of Mexico. I doubt that he is biased against Hispanics considering his 3 kids.

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Biography

Columba Bush, First Lady of Florida

Columba Bush, formerly Columba Garnica Gallo, was born in Leon, Guanajato, Mexico in 1953. In February 1971, she met Jeb Bush, now governor of Florida in Leon, Mexico, while he was teaching English in an exchange program with his high school, Phillips Academy. They were married on February 23rd in 1974. From 1980 until the Governor's election, they lived in Miami where they raised their three children.

[billvon 2,991]

>I am not sure that I would categorize Pres Bush as a racist for trying
>to get rid of racial preferences.

Nor would I. Indeed, I consider an activist promoting separate treatment for a different race of people much more of a racist than someone who proposes removing any prejudicial policies in college admission.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Nor would I. Indeed, I consider an activist promoting separate treatment for a different race of people much more of a racist than someone who proposes removing any prejudicial policies in college admission.

Well, I guess that's directed at me (although I'm not an activist, just an opinionated loud mouth). But the issue, as I see it, isn't race at all. It's cultural differences within our society. And rather than "white wash" the cultural diversity out of our nation I'd prefer it were embraced and encouraged. No, I don't think signs should have to be in 50 different languages, but standardized testing is based on the standard of the dominant culture and therefore is unfair to someone of a different backgourd.

[Gawain 0]

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veryone together.....
THIS AINT NO DAMN DEMOCRACY!
even though America tries to claim it.
whatever,
Thomas

Alas, the under-educated are taught this by the likes of U Mich and other "spun" concerns in the educational system.

The United States is a Federal Replublic (albeit with strong democratic traditions).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,027]

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I am not sure that I would categorize Pres Bush as a racist for trying to get rid of racial preferences. His brother Jeb has been doing the same thing as gov. of Florida.

For those of you who don't know, Jeb is married to Columba, a native of Mexico. I doubt that he is biased against Hispanics considering his 3 kids.

Bill, I don't believe he is racist at all. I just believe that he should have kept out of this one. Bush benefited in a major way from preference in college admission due to his own privileged background; that is a matter of record. He just comes over as a hypocrite on this issue.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gary350 0]

One word: pendulum.

Even if opportunities in this country now SEEM (to all you angry white males and others) equal for all, they are not. Hundreds of years of oppression and hate do not get mitigated in 30 - 40 years.

After a few centuries of shameless racism and even genocide by the culture of this country, maybe, just maybe, the pendulum of fairness should swing just a teeny bit back the other way - maybe even a teeny bit past straight. . .

It's not about race per se. It's about doing something to help right a great wrong. In a vacuum, discrimination of any kind, "reverse" or otherwise, is wrong. This country is not a vacuum.

[happythoughts 0]

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>I am not sure that I would categorize Pres Bush as a racist for trying
>to get rid of racial preferences.

Nor would I. Indeed, I consider an activist promoting separate treatment for a different race of people much more of a racist than someone who proposes removing any prejudicial policies in college admission.

Just so you know, Bill, that was a general knowledge post. Not directed at you. Just info.

[Gawain 0]

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One word: pendulum.

Even if opportunities in this country now SEEM (to all you angry white males and others) equal for all, they are not. Hundreds of years of oppression and hate do not get mitigated in 30 - 40 years.

University of Mississippi, 2002. Hate crime graffiti tags appearing near black fraternities and other public areas. The school admin, students are screaming for blood and demand that Federal Hate Crime charges be filed as soon as the culprits are caught. It turns out the three students painting swastikas and anti-black statements were, african-american. Now, all of the sudden, the school doesn't want hate crime charges filed, no Federal indictments. DOUBLE STANDARD.

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After a few centuries of shameless racism and even genocide by the culture of this country, maybe, just maybe, the pendulum of fairness should swing just a teeny bit back the other way - maybe even a teeny bit past straight. . .

It's not about race per se. It's about doing something to help right a great wrong. In a vacuum, discrimination of any kind, "reverse" or otherwise, is wrong. This country is not a vacuum.

I don't know about any genocide, but I can tell you right now, the source of racism in places like Birmingham, Atlanta, Savannah and South Carolina is not as off-balance as you think. Most racism and hatred is generated by the same people that claim to be victims. Everyone needs to look in the mirror.

I agree, this country is not a vacuum, but nor does it need to be. Change is tough. The bar was raised with the civil rights movement, it needs to be raised again. I personally believe that the "minorities" will not be up for the challenge unless they are given a swift push.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,027]

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Aren't we striving for an equal playing field? Resources need to be thrown at bringing up the educational opportunities in poor areas, rather than propping up the products of those poor educational systems when they hit college age.

Maybe both are required. Since you brought us the playing field metaphor, say you had a ballgame in which one team had to play up a steep hill, and by halftime the other team had run up a huge lead. Would leveling the field at halftime instantly result in a fair game? I don't think so.

I might add that I'm an affluent blue eyed red headed Caucasian.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jfields 0]

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One word: pendulum.

Yes, you are right. It is about the pendulum.

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Hundreds of years of oppression and hate do not get mitigated in 30 - 40 years.

You are right there too. But perpetuating racism does not help the people that have been oppressed in past generations. Even though I didn't do it, I'm sorry lots of minorities got the shaft. Guess what? My ancestors got screwed too, but I'm not looking for handouts or quotas to help me at the specific expense of Germans and Russians.

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the pendulum of fairness should swing just a teeny bit back the other way - maybe even a teeny bit past straight. . .

If it goes past straight, aren't you just setting up discrimination for new generations of people to be hostile about? How is that any better than what was done to you, or your ancestors?

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It's not about race per se. It's about doing something to help right a great wrong.

The only thing that can help right the great wrong is to stop the racism and work to provide better opportunities for people of all races.

You can't simultaneously support equality and government-sanctioned racism. You have to pick one or the other.

[jfields 0]

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Since you brought us the playing field metaphor, say you had a ballgame in which one team had to play up a steep hill, and by halftime the other team had run up a huge lead. Would leveling the field at halftime instantly result in a fair game? I don't think so.

Well, let's take another look...

If the "game" is 200 years, the people that struggled uphill are dead by halftime. Why sentence a new generation of people to struggle up the opposite hill for their lifetimes? Eventually, there comes a time when both sides need to apologize to each other, level the field, and make it a pick-up game instead of keeping score.

I'd rather have a level playing field than a teeter-totter.

[gary350 0]

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Since you brought us the playing field metaphor, say you had a ballgame in which one team had to play up a steep hill, and by halftime the other team had run up a huge lead. Would leveling the field at halftime instantly result in a fair game? I don't think so.

Excellent - Thanks for putting it in terms that perhaps a few more people will understand.

[kallend 2,027]

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Since you brought us the playing field metaphor, say you had a ballgame in which one team had to play up a steep hill, and by halftime the other team had run up a huge lead. Would leveling the field at halftime instantly result in a fair game? I don't think so.

Well, let's take another look...

If the "game" is 200 years, the people that struggled uphill are dead by halftime. Why sentence a new generation of people to struggle up the opposite hill for their lifetimes? Eventually, there comes a time when both sides need to apologize to each other, level the field, and make it a pick-up game instead of keeping score.

So the starters are out of the game and the substitutes are on the field. They have still inherited an unfair lead, right? Now you want to start an entirely new game; you can't keep the points from the previous one, so reparations must be required. I wouldn't go there if I were you.


It's your metaphor...

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gary350 0]

Justin - you have good arguments and express them well. I do ask myself the same questions, but just get a different answer.

[skreamer 1]

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I was a very lazy student from a poor white family in London, but aced enough exams to get a full scholarship to Cambridge (UK Ivy League) all the way through PhD.

Wow, a genius and modest to boot...

[Snowflake 0]

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The fact that schools are funded by property taxes pretty much keeps that situation the same.

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Not in Texas. The school districts are required to operate under the Robinhood Plan. This law says that rich districts who collect more money, must share funds with the poorer districts. The legislative goal was to even out the tax revenues between districts based on their student populations and local tax rates.

Unfortunately it has not worked exactly as planned, but many more dollars are going to the poorer districts.



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Your missing the point it's about resources and access. Caucasians own most of the resources and power in this country. Therefore they have access to those resources and everthing they provide including quality education. Minorities on the other hand have very limited resources and so have very limited access to quality education.

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No I think you are missing the point! My family and I do not own most of the resources and power either locally or nationally. I had to work my way through school after military service with the help of the GI bill. All minority vets had the same access to this assistance, but many chose not to go to college after serving. This was a voluntary decision probably based on their personal economic situation at the time, but nevertheless a voluntary decision. They wanted to earn bucks then instead of investing in their future. I was willing to survive on hot dogs and rice to pay tuition.

Now you're saying that their children should have an advantage over mine because they did not have equal access? Education was more important to me than it was to them, but they had equal opportunity and access.


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Then both those races are treated like subhumans for 100's of years and when something is done so that the playing field is leveled who are the first people that get pissed? The ones who benifitted the most from this.

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No one in my family has ever treated anyone as subhuman. We never owned slaves or participated in the killing of American Indians. My father's family fled Syria in the late 1800's to fled from religious persecution; My mother's family fled Scotland after being kicked out of the church there. They came to America with nothing and in one lifetime were comfortably middle class citizens. And yes they suffered from racism too! Even in South Texas as a 4th generation American, my brother was kicked off a high school girlfriends front porch by her dad who said "My daughter does not associate with Arabs!" We had blue eyes and blond hair and were Christian, but that didn't make any difference to those with small minds.

I believe in equal access and equal rights for all. If two kids, one black and one white, make the same SAT score and enrollment at a school is limited then the receipt date and time of the application should be the only discriminating factor.

If the SAT is biased as you have stated, we need to fix that problem instead of penalizing the kids who had nothing to do with creating the exam.

You have accused and lumped all Caucasians into one pot and attached a label. That my friend is racism!
Gemini

Okay I can see you took this personally . Lets go through this point by point

As Wendy stated robinhood really didn't do much to even the playing field and I really don't see that the poorer districts have been improved all that much.

No I'm not missing the point you really are taking this much to personally. I'm quite aware that you don't own most of the resources and power, but that doesn't change the fact that most of the power and resources are held by a few caucasians your expirience while valid does not constitute a survey of minorities in this country. I'll even go one further and say that your expirience with minority behavior and education is very limited and totally subjective. Did you also do a survey and see how many caucasians went to school on the GI bill? Have you considered any of the social dynamics involved with these desicions or did you just think that it was pureloy genetics?

Once again your taking my objective statements and making them subjective. While I appreciate you telling me about your family. It still doesn't change the FACT!!!!!!!!! that minorities were treated as subhumans for centuries.

You show me where in my statements I lumped all caucasians together and even better show me where I accused all caucasians and your more then welcome to call me racist......but I didn't and I think you know that.

Oh yea as far as your kids being penalized, I understand your feelings but most black children are penalized daily because of the color of their skin. I don't hear you bitching about that. Is that one of those "lifes not fair get over it" type of things? or is it because it has nothing to do with you so it really doesn't matter?

[jfields 0]

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Eventually, there comes a time when both sides need to apologize to each other, level the field, and make it a pick-up game instead of keeping score.
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So the starters are out of the game and the substitutes are on the field. They have still inherited an unfair lead, right? Now you want to start an entirely new game; you can't keep the points from the previous one, so reparations must be required.

Kallend,

When can bygones be bygones? When you stop keeping score and start playing for the love of the game, does it matter what last week's score was, or the game your grandfather played when he was young?

Bringing it back to education, isn't "the game" about education? If it is really about education, and not revenge, then isn't a good fair game where the best person at the sport wins the objective?

Going to the point you mentioned about reparations, that is part of the issue. I am already paying reparations, in the manner of opportunities that are less accessible to me, by order of the government. You want more, perhaps financial help from me, that is fine. I'll just sue all the people that discriminated against my ancestors, and the settlement will give me plenty of money to pay you.

It just doesn't work. You can't go backward like that. If being discriminated against entitles you to a hand out, then every single entity backward through history is both entitled and owing.

There comes a point where the perpetual reversals have only hurt everyone, instead of helping anyone. Isn't real equality what everyone really wants? Once people get to a mature far-sighted view of things, the only thing that makes any sense is true, blind equality. It is the only way to make sure nobody from that point forward is slighted, whatever their race/color/gender/sexual preference might be. No matter when you come to that defining moment, someone will have recently been on the short end. Things will never be fair for every group until things are fair for everyone.

[wmw999 2,446]

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Isn't real equality what everyone really wants? Once people get to a mature far-sighted view of things, the only thing that makes any sense is true, blind equality.

Unfortunately, no, I don't think it is yet for a lot of people. From the girl whose first question when she was rejected by the University of Michigan was "who can I sue" to the guy/woman who prefers job applicants from certain colleges because of everything they have in common.

These things on a micro scale aren't that relevant; however, there seems to be enough of a preponderance of people who are uncomfortable with certain minorities that they can't see past the differences to the relevant data.

Before you say that you can see past it, how comfortable would your (casual dress) office be with a guy who wears an Afro with a shower cap over it, baggy shiny jeans, a huge gold pendant, and several gold teeth. Let's say he also speaks with a very inner-city accent. Yes, I'm pandering to prejudice here.

Would you assume he could figure out the local dress code once he began working as much as the fresh grad dressed in a white shirt with a pocket protector, and would you give his sometimes hard-to-understand accent as much benefit of the doubt as someone from another country?

Been there, done that. It's not as easy in actuality as it sounds. And I grew up in a very multicultural environment.

Yes, the road to acceptibility goes both ways, but right now in many workplaces, it's pretty much defined by what middle-class white people consider to be "normal."

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sunman 0]

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wealthy (i.e. white) communities spend much per per capita on public schooling than do poor (i.e. black and hispanic) communities.

So white people are rich and dark people are poor? That sounds like racist to me. If we're trying to fight racism and be "color blind", shouldn't we try to make equal opportunities for all people regardless of race? Assuming somebody has not had equal opportunities because they have dark skin is wrong. And for God's sake, adding a new and different prejudice, or "swinging the pendulum the other way" IS ANOTHER PROBLEM, NOT A SOLUTION!

I should add that Bush has come up with a pretty interesting alternative, which he calls "affirmative access." He believes that anybody who graduates in the top ten percent of their High School should be automatically eligible for admission. I believe this to be a good compromise. This would mean that somebody who went to a poor school district, but managed to do reasonably well considering their situation, would have the same opportunity as somebody who was lucky enough to attend a better school. This system is better because it does not assume that assume that all minorities are poor and under-privileged. Some may be, but to say they all are is wrong.

I would like to add that my job has placed me in about 15 different schools over the past 3 years (don't ask me to explain what I do for a living). I currently work at five different schools. I do not believe that a school is good or bad based solely on the economic status of the students. What is far more important is the teachers and principals. If a school has a good principal who hires good teachers who really try hard to reach the kids, then it is a good school, even if all the kids are poor. 'Nuff said.

Thank you all for your contributions. I got exactly what I was looking for; a variety of knowledgeable opinions. Whether or not you agree with me, I respect and understand your viewpoint.

[wmw999 2,446]

The "top 10 percent" rule is a good compromise. Of course, it doesn't apply to particularly popular programs, and doesn't address preference given to other students for other reasons. But it definitely gives a chance.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PhillyKev 0]

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So white people are rich and dark people are poor? That sounds like racist to me.

It's a fact resulting from racism.

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He believes that anybody who graduates in the top ten percent of their High School should be automatically eligible for admission.

I like that idea.

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I do not believe that a school is good or bad based solely on the economic status of the students. What is far more important is the teachers and principals. If a school has a good principal who hires good teachers who really try hard to reach the kids, then it is a good school, even if all the kids are poor. 'Nuff said.

The problem is if the students are all poor, the community probably is which means the school doesn't have the financial ability to attract and hire the good principals and teachers.

[splittail1 0]

I was at UC Berkeley when they got rid of affirmative action, and through all the protest and debates the only thing I could conclude was that this is one issue I don't have a decisive stance on.

I was denied to several colleges where I had better grades, better scores then some minorities who were accepted. I'm very happy with the school I went to, but still really annoyed, I worked my ass off!

I also took pysch classes and sat on Human relations boards where I learned just how much ethnicity predetermines the opportunities offered to you in life.

If we lived in a perfect world then affirmative action would be useless, but its flawed, and fundamentally affirmative action is a good idea to 'help' the problem. Unluckily, its gone way too far.

The biggest qualm I have with U of M's scoring system is that (from CNN) 20 pts were awarded for minority races, while 1 pt was awarded for having an outstanding essay and 5 pts for personal and leadership achievements.

[kallend 2,027]

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wealthy (i.e. white) communities spend much per per capita on public schooling than do poor (i.e. black and hispanic) communities.

So white people are rich and dark people are poor? That sounds like racist to me.

No - it's a demographic from the US Census. The full sentence, parts of which you snipped selectively, related to the state of affairs in Illinois.
Facts are not racist. If you look up the richest community in Illinois (Kenilworth, I believe) and compare its racial profile with the poorest (Ford Heights) you will see that Kenilworth is >90% white, and Ford Heights is >95% black. Just the facts.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sunman 0]

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No - it's a demographic from the US Census. The full sentence, parts of which you snipped selectively, related to the state of affairs in Illinois.

Okay, I see your point. That demographic itself is not racist because it is a fact. I was just trying to say that the demographic brings us to conclusions that may or may not be true about a minority who happens to walk into the admissions office.