SniperCJ 0 #26 January 10, 2003 QuoteEven ignoring the dog, why did they handcuff them at gunpoint if they were not resisting? Having trouble coming up with a good reason for thatQuote Because they were reported to be CARJACKING SUSPECTS. Handcuff first, sort it out afterwards. How long does it take for an unhandcuffed person to pull out a gun? I suspect that YOU wouldnt know. I however, DO know by first hand experience, and it doesnt take long. The ONLY reason that particular guy is still alive is because he put the gun to his own head instead of turning it in MY direction. I can no more explain to you what it feels like to do this job than you can explain to a non-jumper what it feels like to jump. Non-jumper: Gosh it looks so easy. All you have to do is pull that little string thingy! Non-cop: Gosh, all he had to do was ask them if they were the car-jackers! Ya, thats it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Push 0 #27 January 10, 2003 QuoteBecause they were reported to be CARJACKING SUSPECTS. Handcuff first, sort it out afterwards. On their knees? At gun point? Did the family resist the handcuffing? Of course, here we are getting to the point where neither of us know. But I would imagine that the police should only get violent if the alleged offenders seem dangerous. You seem to be a policeman. Does a guy with a wife, a kid and two dogs seem dangerous to you? If yes, I hope I'm never a suspect for you. EDIT: Let me emphasize that I am not arguing about the handcuffing part. But if you attack, and yes, attack, every suspect you see, expect lawsuits. And rightfully so. When it's you who is handcuffed and your dog is shot in front of you, you tell me it wasn't excessive. And when you report something suspicious to the cops that turns out to be nothing, you admit you are sticking your nose in someone elses business. I made my point and am walking away from this argument. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unlucky1 0 #28 January 10, 2003 Very good point. I am a police officer. I don't agree with shooting the dog. I am a dog lover/animal lover. But, we weren't there. As for the felony stop...they performed it correctly...handcuffs, gunpoint, doors open. The people that are "arguing" the point of "they were the wrong people" obviously have never been in this situation. This happened to me about 2 months ago. I'm on patrol, i get a call from the County dispatch saying that they just received a call about an armed carjacker stealing a van from somebody. The victim reported that he had a gun. The victim gave us the description of the van, and the license plate. About 2 minutes later, "the" van passes me. I make a felony stop. I order him out of the van at gunpoint, while another deputy cuffs him and pulls him back. At that point, another officer and i had to go up and "clear" the van to make sure nobody else was in it. The doors are left open for officer safety so we can see into the vehicle as we approach it to make sure nobody is laying down in the backseat with a gun (and yes....that has happened, that is where the procedure comes from). Turns out, that the guy we cuffed was innocent, and the call came from a prank caller. We let the guy go. That is what happened. This is what could have happened if we did it the way that people who've never walked in my shoes would do it. Same call....same van...same situation. This time, I walk up to the van. Approach the driver and "ask him if he is armed and planning on shooting me". Either A: he pulls his weapon over the top of his door frame and shoots me in the head. Or B: he says "oh no officer...i'm not a carjacker". And then i let him leave. Unless you have ever walked in a police officers shoes, don't criticize him for proper protocol. I myself do not believe the dog should have been shot unless it was attacking the officers. I do believe that they followed protocol to a tee and performed the "felony stop" correctly. Those officers want to go home at night without getting killed by taking stupid chances. I for one wonder why people constantly put down police officers, but the minute they need one....who are they calling? I'm done. I'm walking away from this argument either. He said it best when describing the jumper/nonjumper scenario. You'll never know unless you've been there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zinger 0 #29 January 10, 2003 QuoteZinger, That whole post of yours was so assinine, I wont even dignify most of it with a response.QuoteIf you think my post is asinine (Spelled with one "S" there wizard), What do you think of a paid public servant stopping a innocent family, Handcuffing them by gunpoint, Making them kneel on the side of the road and watch as a cop shoots your dog that you repeatedly asked to have secured in the car? What do you call that? I call it asinine crime. Quote You want to blame somebody for this fiasco, blame the citizen. Maybe they should have minded their own business.You will blame anyone but a fellow brother in blue won't you, I blame the close minded stupid trigger happy cop.They are out there.(Did I use "There" properly that time) QuoteGet a grip on yourself.QuoteI'm not the one that is pissed, I wish the cops with the guns could get a grip. ------Have a good one!-------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #30 January 10, 2003 QuoteZinger, That whole post of yours was so assinine, I wont even dignify most of it with a response. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my post is asinine (Spelled with one "S" there wizard), You guys done? Let's remember rule one, 'kay? Attack the issue, not the person expressing their opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #31 January 10, 2003 QuoteIt was a dog, and could have been acting defensive. My dog scares the shit out of me when it barks at nothing in the middle of the night, which turns out to be the neighbours coming in . then you obviously should not be a law enforcement officer because your ability to access risk is rather flawed. Dogs as a whole, even trained ones, are EXTREMELY vulnerable to humans, any trained police officer in the company of multiple others should never feel really threatened by any dog. Even in full blown attack mode one of the other officers could have handled the dog without killing it. This fool needs his badge revoked and sent to sell fries, that kind of over reaction is inexcusable. btw before you start flaming about "what do i know" i have 5 family members in law enforcement, and every single one ive talked to about this (3 so far) have said based on the information available currently this was a travesty..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SniperCJ 0 #32 January 10, 2003 Oh Zinger, I spelled it ASS-inine in your honor. And Lisa, I cant help but note that you made no comment when Zinger accused me of being corrupt with THIS comment: "What's wrong?, Mad you where not there to plant a extra gun under the dogs collar to help out a buddy?" Dont worry, I'm signing off this debate... JC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #33 January 10, 2003 QuoteAnd Lisa, I cant help but note that you made no comment Sorry, but I was kinda busy working when he posted the first time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flash 0 #34 January 10, 2003 Well like any profession, You have people that are good at there profession and people that just work in that profession!! besides it was a dam bulldog. Now thats really threatening!! They are only about 1ft. tall. If that is the real story then that asshole should be fired before he shoots an innocent person. Gravity powered...Air cooled! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevin922 0 #35 January 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteZinger, That whole post of yours was so assinine, I wont even dignify most of it with a response.QuoteIf you think my post is asinine (Spelled with one "S" there wizard), What do you think of a paid public servant stopping a innocent family, Handcuffing them by gunpoint, Making them kneel on the side of the road and watch as a cop shoots your dog that you repeatedly asked to have secured in the car? What do you call that? I call it asinine crime. Quote You want to blame somebody for this fiasco, blame the citizen. Maybe they should have minded their own business.You will blame anyone but a fellow brother in blue won't you, I blame the close minded stupid trigger happy cop.They are out there.(Did I use "There" properly that time) QuoteGet a grip on yourself.QuoteI'm not the one that is pissed, I wish the cops with the guns could get a grip. Look, the way I see it (because I have done some law enforcement work) is that the felony stop was done correctly however the judgement of the officer who took the shot seems a little off. I wasn't there, and i have yet to see the video (it's on Cnn.com if anyone has a newspass) but from all the things that have been written in the news it really doesn't seem like the officer was really threatened by the dog. I seem to think that because it was a felony stop (which the officer didn't know the details of) and most likely the officer was not in contact with the "suspects" he didn't know about the dog. When all the sudden something that he isn't expecting comes jumping out of the car his reaction was to shoot. I could be totally off, but that's the only thing I can see to explain this accident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flash 0 #36 January 10, 2003 I have to fully agree with you unlucky1. What they did is what should have been done except for shooting a small bulldog!! But if he was that trigger happy, then he is not safe to protect ANYONE! Gravity powered...Air cooled! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #37 January 10, 2003 QuoteBecause they were reported to be CARJACKING SUSPECTS. Handcuff first, sort it out afterwards. A country where acting like that is standard policy, is one I don't want to live in. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akaGQ 0 #38 January 10, 2003 I say they shoot the cop and see how his dog feels about it. hehehe- GQ ... it was the love of the air and sky and flying, the lure of adventure, the appreciation of beauty ... -Charles Lindberg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freefallfreak 0 #39 January 10, 2003 QuoteI say they shoot the cop and see how his dog feels about it. hehehe Yep....agreed... FFF A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a Unicorn. "Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildblue 7 #40 January 10, 2003 I'm a little biased, because I've (indirectly) had one really bad experience with the TN state patrol. That said - I think better judgement could have been used. In the video, the dog hops out of the car barking and wagging his tail. Now, you could also argue that the dog should have been secured in the car as well, not free to roam around it/out of it. But, it is just a dog too... I can't fault someone for that. Maybe he's not an 'animal lover' - if he felt threatened, it is just a dog. Mace it, shoot it, whatever. I can't really say the whole felony stop thing was wrong of them either. I can't blame them for that. Cops have been shot just trying to give a speeding ticket. Like has been said before, it might be a shitty thing that happened, but I'm not sure you can squarely lay all the blame at one person's feet.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zinger 0 #41 January 10, 2003 QuoteLook, the way I see it (because I have done some law enforcement work) is that the felony stop was done correctly however the judgement of the officer who took the shot seems a little off. Quote I think this is what makes dropzone.com so interesting, Everyone can state how they feel and how they see things and how varied our view points are, And our opinions do vary. The way I see it is that the foundation of this "Felony Stop" is cracked because they did not stop Felons, Of course the cops did not know this, But they are the ones that jumped to that conclusion over a hear say report (First mistake) I believe a few more mistakes happened by at least two more cops after this also. I realize that the police don't know who there dealing with on stops and they have to beware of everyone, But I also believe that a little trigger pressure could of been released when they saw a Family traveling on a public interstate in a family station wagon with clear to see threw windows at a normal family traveling time of day and year with two family dogs. I heard people say that you have to wear the police shoes to know what it's like, and I totally agree, But here is my point, The police put on them shoes on there own and they get paid to wear them and most importantly they are aware of the danger and realize they are going out looking for it wearing them shoes. This innocent family did not have that luxury. QuoteI wasn't there, and i have yet to see the video (it's on Cnn.com if anyone has a newspass) but from all the things that have been written in the news it really doesn't seem like the officer was really threatened by the dog. I did see the video many times and also watched the family on "The Today" show this morning, I feel very sorry for them, There rights where raped and there hearts broken and I expect this trauma will last their remaining life time. For no fault at all of their own. QuoteI seem to think that because it was a felony stop (which the officer didn't know the details of) and most likely the officer was not in contact with the "suspects" he didn't know about the dog. Quote Like I said I watched the video many times, All the cops where standing there listening but ignoring there pleas of common sense to close the door because the dog would get out (Another huge mistake), But they ignored there common sense because it went against there protocol, And that is what makes this so sad, I think "Sad" is the word that best describes this and not because of the poor innocent family dog that was needlessly gunned down. I thinks its sad because that now-a-days people say that it's "Proper Protocol" to stop a innocent family and put them threw this, The police are suppose to protect people from this, Not do it to them.The word "Proper" does not even come close to describe these actions. Quote When all the sudden something that he isn't expecting comes jumping out of the car his reaction was to shoot. I could be totally off, but thats the only thing I can see to explain this accident. Like I said the shooter knew about the dog, It bounced out with tail waging, Passed right past a cop and in a round about way came towards the family and shooter that was hovering over the handcuffed kneeling on the side of the road family with shot gun, The shooter panicked over a dog that was barley tall enough to jump up and bite him in the knee and so he shot it in front of it's teenage owner. SAD. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all police are bad, But I am saying is when they are wrong they should be punished and not protected. A few Police made a few mistakes in this sad ordeal but unfortunately the innocent family has to pay for it. SAD. ------Have a good one!-------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,545 #42 January 10, 2003 Sometimes bad stuff happens and the fault is not really attributable. The dog sounds like an overreaction -- but if police can be human like everyone else, and he's not a dog person, then he might not know the difference between an excited dog and a happy dog and one that's about to go off on you. The family was hurt, no doubt. But the police officer has to follow up on reports like that -- it's his fucking JOB. How much would you object if he hadn't followed up, and it had turned out to be valid? This is an awful situation. I hope I'm never in one like that, and I'm sure I'll be pissed if I am. But that won't make him less right for using felony procedures when a felony has been reported. We might as well prosecute the guy who made the report that led to the stop. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #43 January 10, 2003 I would say that pulling out a gun is unnecessary if the family complied with everything. They did not try to outrun the cops, use force, etc. Which carjackers stash away a dog as a hidden weapon (we're not talking in movies)? The cop used zero judgment and no common sense based on the report that someone was speeding and stuff was coming out the window (am I the only one to ever speed and litter? Didn't know I looked like a carjacker.)There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blewaway5 0 #44 January 10, 2003 AHHH!! People, let's please try to compare the intrinsic worth of one human life versus one dog life. Now, HOPEFULLY, we've all decided that just possibly the human's life is just a tad bit more than the dog's. Not to say that the dog isn't cute and maybe even cuddly, but hey, I pick the people. If we all reached the same point, which hopefully you all value the person over the dog, then we have at least a little common ground to work from. Here we have a police officer involved in what is known as a "felony stop." A report comes in and they don't know whether or not these people are violent offenders or not. All they have is the possibility. So here they go, hold on tight cause this happens a lot faster in real life when it's your life on the line. Quick get the people out of the car at gunpoint. If they are feeling violent they won't be apt to do anything stupid with those guns trained on them. What's this, they're saying something about dogs being in the car. Ah, shit, just what we need, animals in the car we've got to search. Now these people are getting louder proclaiming their innocence. We'll see in a minute. Crap, dog coming out of the door pretty quick. Looks around and zeroes in on nearest human, a cop with a shotgun, and heads pretty much right for him. Officer makes snap judgement and shoots dog in the head, back to covering family. Okay, cops aren't my favorite people usually, simply because damn near every time I have to interact with them I've broken some sort of law, but try to remember that they don't have time to check out the instant replay in the field. The dog probably wasn't going to attack him, but we'll never know. Does this bother me. Oddly, no, I'd rather a dog dies than a person risk injury. Maybe he could have maced the dog or something, sure, but he had that shotgun kinda filling up his hands. Yep, it's a shame the family watched their dog die, but is it a shame that a cop had all of a second to decide if there was a threat and erred on the side of self preservation. Hate to say it, but I bet he'd be better off if he'd shot a person that was running towards him, and that's a sad statement. Truman Sparks for President Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #45 January 10, 2003 QuoteAHHH!! People, let's please try to compare the intrinsic worth of one human life versus one dog life. Now, HOPEFULLY, we've all decided that just possibly the human's life is just a tad bit more than the dog's. Not to say that the dog isn't cute and maybe even cuddly, but hey, I pick the people. If we all reached the same point, which hopefully you all value the person over the dog, then we have at least a little common ground to work from. Here we have a police officer involved in what is known as a "felony stop." A report comes in and they don't know whether or not these people are violent offenders or not. All they have is the possibility. So here they go, hold on tight cause this happens a lot faster in real life when it's your life on the line. Quick get the people out of the car at gunpoint. If they are feeling violent they won't be apt to do anything stupid with those guns trained on them. What's this, they're saying something about dogs being in the car. Ah, shit, just what we need, animals in the car we've got to search. Now these people are getting louder proclaiming their innocence. We'll see in a minute. Crap, dog coming out of the door pretty quick. Looks around and zeroes in on nearest human, a cop with a shotgun, and heads pretty much right for him. Officer makes snap judgement and shoots dog in the head, back to covering family. Okay, cops aren't my favorite people usually, simply because damn near every time I have to interact with them I've broken some sort of law, but try to remember that they don't have time to check out the instant replay in the field. The dog probably wasn't going to attack him, but we'll never know. Does this bother me. Oddly, no, I'd rather a dog dies than a person risk injury. Maybe he could have maced the dog or something, sure, but he had that shotgun kinda filling up his hands. Yep, it's a shame the family watched their dog die, but is it a shame that a cop had all of a second to decide if there was a threat and erred on the side of self preservation. Hate to say it, but I bet he'd be better off if he'd shot a person that was running towards him, and that's a sad statement. well thats all fine and good if his life had been actually threatened, however no single dog (even trained attack dogs) is really a threat to any adults life, particularly a trained police officer in the company of other trained police officers..at worst he would have sustained a nasty bite. the possibility of being bitten does not require lethal response its NOT a life threatening situation. hell he could have just kicked /butt stroked it if he hates dogs.. whatever happened to "respond with appropriateforce". this cop need his badge and gun removed and given a broom, since his judgment is way faulty. Apparently TN doesnt screen or train its law enforcement officers very well..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #46 January 10, 2003 Quote well thats all fine and good if his life had been actually threatened, however no single dog (even trained attack dogs) is really a threat to any adults life, particularly a trained police officer in the company of other trained police officers..at worst he would have sustained a nasty bite. the possibility of being bitten does not require lethal response its NOT a life threatening situation. Well, I imagine some will bust out the few incidents where a dog has killed someone. I could even maybe see the cop shooting the dog if it was a German Shepard, and one of the passengers gave it an attack command. And, in response to an earlier post, it's not that we're sitting here crying over the fact a dog died. It's just ridiculous that someone overreacted to a silly call, especially since upon meeting the family, they gave the cops no reasonable threat.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ladyskydiver 0 #47 January 10, 2003 QuoteI could even maybe see the cop shooting the dog if it was a German Shepard, and one of the passengers gave it an attack command. Ok...I'm not going to get into the debate about this. But...let's be real here...any dog can be used as an attack dog - German Sheppard, Poodle...etc. Just as any dog can be a lap dog. So, please, do not single out a specific breed(s) for being an attack dog. I've raised some of the "attack dog" breeds and have found that they are the most loveable, lap dogs there are.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #48 January 10, 2003 Well, it is much easier to train a German Sheppard to be an attack dog than a Cocker Spaniel. They're huge, smart dogs, but I agree in that they can be gentle. Which is why I said, if the dog was given a command to be anything but gentle, then I could see the cop shooting it.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #49 January 10, 2003 your right dogs have killed people in the past, generally people who were smaller, unaware, or unwilling to harm the dog to stop it. A healthy able adult should never be really threatened by any dog. trained attack dog or not. they are simply too easy to disable by a human. will you get hurt doing so? yes. will you die? no. not unless you let it happen. most cases of dogs killing humans are either in packs, small children, elderly, or someone who would/could not defend themselves. (they let fear rule and so become prey) an armed aware police officer in the company of other armed police officers is NOT in a life threatening situation or even a slightly threatening one. Im not complaining about the dogs death so much that there is an armed and 'trusted' member of the law enforcement community who has such poor training and judgment.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevin922 0 #50 January 10, 2003 Quoteyour right dogs have killed people in the past, generally people who were smaller, unaware, or unwilling to harm the dog to stop it. A healthy able adult should never be really threatened by any dog. trained attack dog or not. they are simply too easy to disable by a human. will you get hurt doing so? yes. will you die? no. not unless you let it happen. most cases of dogs killing humans are either in packs, small children, elderly, or someone who would/could not defend themselves. (they let fear rule and so become prey) an armed aware police officer in the company of other armed police officers is NOT in a life threatening situation or even a slightly threatening one. Im not complaining about the dogs death so much that there is an armed and 'trusted' member of the law enforcement community who has such poor training and judgment. Are you NUTS? Have you seen a police dog work? Yeah if you have a gun and you shoot it in the right place then yeah you can disable one.. but if I had a trained dog eyeing me up and letting me know my ass is about to get a little smaller I would be threatened. I have seen dogs who were sent to attack were SHOT and still hung on to the guy's arm until they died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Push 0 #27 January 10, 2003 QuoteBecause they were reported to be CARJACKING SUSPECTS. Handcuff first, sort it out afterwards. On their knees? At gun point? Did the family resist the handcuffing? Of course, here we are getting to the point where neither of us know. But I would imagine that the police should only get violent if the alleged offenders seem dangerous. You seem to be a policeman. Does a guy with a wife, a kid and two dogs seem dangerous to you? If yes, I hope I'm never a suspect for you. EDIT: Let me emphasize that I am not arguing about the handcuffing part. But if you attack, and yes, attack, every suspect you see, expect lawsuits. And rightfully so. When it's you who is handcuffed and your dog is shot in front of you, you tell me it wasn't excessive. And when you report something suspicious to the cops that turns out to be nothing, you admit you are sticking your nose in someone elses business. I made my point and am walking away from this argument. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unlucky1 0 #28 January 10, 2003 Very good point. I am a police officer. I don't agree with shooting the dog. I am a dog lover/animal lover. But, we weren't there. As for the felony stop...they performed it correctly...handcuffs, gunpoint, doors open. The people that are "arguing" the point of "they were the wrong people" obviously have never been in this situation. This happened to me about 2 months ago. I'm on patrol, i get a call from the County dispatch saying that they just received a call about an armed carjacker stealing a van from somebody. The victim reported that he had a gun. The victim gave us the description of the van, and the license plate. About 2 minutes later, "the" van passes me. I make a felony stop. I order him out of the van at gunpoint, while another deputy cuffs him and pulls him back. At that point, another officer and i had to go up and "clear" the van to make sure nobody else was in it. The doors are left open for officer safety so we can see into the vehicle as we approach it to make sure nobody is laying down in the backseat with a gun (and yes....that has happened, that is where the procedure comes from). Turns out, that the guy we cuffed was innocent, and the call came from a prank caller. We let the guy go. That is what happened. This is what could have happened if we did it the way that people who've never walked in my shoes would do it. Same call....same van...same situation. This time, I walk up to the van. Approach the driver and "ask him if he is armed and planning on shooting me". Either A: he pulls his weapon over the top of his door frame and shoots me in the head. Or B: he says "oh no officer...i'm not a carjacker". And then i let him leave. Unless you have ever walked in a police officers shoes, don't criticize him for proper protocol. I myself do not believe the dog should have been shot unless it was attacking the officers. I do believe that they followed protocol to a tee and performed the "felony stop" correctly. Those officers want to go home at night without getting killed by taking stupid chances. I for one wonder why people constantly put down police officers, but the minute they need one....who are they calling? I'm done. I'm walking away from this argument either. He said it best when describing the jumper/nonjumper scenario. You'll never know unless you've been there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zinger 0 #29 January 10, 2003 QuoteZinger, That whole post of yours was so assinine, I wont even dignify most of it with a response.QuoteIf you think my post is asinine (Spelled with one "S" there wizard), What do you think of a paid public servant stopping a innocent family, Handcuffing them by gunpoint, Making them kneel on the side of the road and watch as a cop shoots your dog that you repeatedly asked to have secured in the car? What do you call that? I call it asinine crime. Quote You want to blame somebody for this fiasco, blame the citizen. Maybe they should have minded their own business.You will blame anyone but a fellow brother in blue won't you, I blame the close minded stupid trigger happy cop.They are out there.(Did I use "There" properly that time) QuoteGet a grip on yourself.QuoteI'm not the one that is pissed, I wish the cops with the guns could get a grip. ------Have a good one!-------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #30 January 10, 2003 QuoteZinger, That whole post of yours was so assinine, I wont even dignify most of it with a response. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my post is asinine (Spelled with one "S" there wizard), You guys done? Let's remember rule one, 'kay? Attack the issue, not the person expressing their opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #31 January 10, 2003 QuoteIt was a dog, and could have been acting defensive. My dog scares the shit out of me when it barks at nothing in the middle of the night, which turns out to be the neighbours coming in . then you obviously should not be a law enforcement officer because your ability to access risk is rather flawed. Dogs as a whole, even trained ones, are EXTREMELY vulnerable to humans, any trained police officer in the company of multiple others should never feel really threatened by any dog. Even in full blown attack mode one of the other officers could have handled the dog without killing it. This fool needs his badge revoked and sent to sell fries, that kind of over reaction is inexcusable. btw before you start flaming about "what do i know" i have 5 family members in law enforcement, and every single one ive talked to about this (3 so far) have said based on the information available currently this was a travesty..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SniperCJ 0 #32 January 10, 2003 Oh Zinger, I spelled it ASS-inine in your honor. And Lisa, I cant help but note that you made no comment when Zinger accused me of being corrupt with THIS comment: "What's wrong?, Mad you where not there to plant a extra gun under the dogs collar to help out a buddy?" Dont worry, I'm signing off this debate... JC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #33 January 10, 2003 QuoteAnd Lisa, I cant help but note that you made no comment Sorry, but I was kinda busy working when he posted the first time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flash 0 #34 January 10, 2003 Well like any profession, You have people that are good at there profession and people that just work in that profession!! besides it was a dam bulldog. Now thats really threatening!! They are only about 1ft. tall. If that is the real story then that asshole should be fired before he shoots an innocent person. Gravity powered...Air cooled! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevin922 0 #35 January 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteZinger, That whole post of yours was so assinine, I wont even dignify most of it with a response.QuoteIf you think my post is asinine (Spelled with one "S" there wizard), What do you think of a paid public servant stopping a innocent family, Handcuffing them by gunpoint, Making them kneel on the side of the road and watch as a cop shoots your dog that you repeatedly asked to have secured in the car? What do you call that? I call it asinine crime. Quote You want to blame somebody for this fiasco, blame the citizen. Maybe they should have minded their own business.You will blame anyone but a fellow brother in blue won't you, I blame the close minded stupid trigger happy cop.They are out there.(Did I use "There" properly that time) QuoteGet a grip on yourself.QuoteI'm not the one that is pissed, I wish the cops with the guns could get a grip. Look, the way I see it (because I have done some law enforcement work) is that the felony stop was done correctly however the judgement of the officer who took the shot seems a little off. I wasn't there, and i have yet to see the video (it's on Cnn.com if anyone has a newspass) but from all the things that have been written in the news it really doesn't seem like the officer was really threatened by the dog. I seem to think that because it was a felony stop (which the officer didn't know the details of) and most likely the officer was not in contact with the "suspects" he didn't know about the dog. When all the sudden something that he isn't expecting comes jumping out of the car his reaction was to shoot. I could be totally off, but that's the only thing I can see to explain this accident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flash 0 #36 January 10, 2003 I have to fully agree with you unlucky1. What they did is what should have been done except for shooting a small bulldog!! But if he was that trigger happy, then he is not safe to protect ANYONE! Gravity powered...Air cooled! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #37 January 10, 2003 QuoteBecause they were reported to be CARJACKING SUSPECTS. Handcuff first, sort it out afterwards. A country where acting like that is standard policy, is one I don't want to live in. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akaGQ 0 #38 January 10, 2003 I say they shoot the cop and see how his dog feels about it. hehehe- GQ ... it was the love of the air and sky and flying, the lure of adventure, the appreciation of beauty ... -Charles Lindberg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freefallfreak 0 #39 January 10, 2003 QuoteI say they shoot the cop and see how his dog feels about it. hehehe Yep....agreed... FFF A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a Unicorn. "Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildblue 7 #40 January 10, 2003 I'm a little biased, because I've (indirectly) had one really bad experience with the TN state patrol. That said - I think better judgement could have been used. In the video, the dog hops out of the car barking and wagging his tail. Now, you could also argue that the dog should have been secured in the car as well, not free to roam around it/out of it. But, it is just a dog too... I can't fault someone for that. Maybe he's not an 'animal lover' - if he felt threatened, it is just a dog. Mace it, shoot it, whatever. I can't really say the whole felony stop thing was wrong of them either. I can't blame them for that. Cops have been shot just trying to give a speeding ticket. Like has been said before, it might be a shitty thing that happened, but I'm not sure you can squarely lay all the blame at one person's feet.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zinger 0 #41 January 10, 2003 QuoteLook, the way I see it (because I have done some law enforcement work) is that the felony stop was done correctly however the judgement of the officer who took the shot seems a little off. Quote I think this is what makes dropzone.com so interesting, Everyone can state how they feel and how they see things and how varied our view points are, And our opinions do vary. The way I see it is that the foundation of this "Felony Stop" is cracked because they did not stop Felons, Of course the cops did not know this, But they are the ones that jumped to that conclusion over a hear say report (First mistake) I believe a few more mistakes happened by at least two more cops after this also. I realize that the police don't know who there dealing with on stops and they have to beware of everyone, But I also believe that a little trigger pressure could of been released when they saw a Family traveling on a public interstate in a family station wagon with clear to see threw windows at a normal family traveling time of day and year with two family dogs. I heard people say that you have to wear the police shoes to know what it's like, and I totally agree, But here is my point, The police put on them shoes on there own and they get paid to wear them and most importantly they are aware of the danger and realize they are going out looking for it wearing them shoes. This innocent family did not have that luxury. QuoteI wasn't there, and i have yet to see the video (it's on Cnn.com if anyone has a newspass) but from all the things that have been written in the news it really doesn't seem like the officer was really threatened by the dog. I did see the video many times and also watched the family on "The Today" show this morning, I feel very sorry for them, There rights where raped and there hearts broken and I expect this trauma will last their remaining life time. For no fault at all of their own. QuoteI seem to think that because it was a felony stop (which the officer didn't know the details of) and most likely the officer was not in contact with the "suspects" he didn't know about the dog. Quote Like I said I watched the video many times, All the cops where standing there listening but ignoring there pleas of common sense to close the door because the dog would get out (Another huge mistake), But they ignored there common sense because it went against there protocol, And that is what makes this so sad, I think "Sad" is the word that best describes this and not because of the poor innocent family dog that was needlessly gunned down. I thinks its sad because that now-a-days people say that it's "Proper Protocol" to stop a innocent family and put them threw this, The police are suppose to protect people from this, Not do it to them.The word "Proper" does not even come close to describe these actions. Quote When all the sudden something that he isn't expecting comes jumping out of the car his reaction was to shoot. I could be totally off, but thats the only thing I can see to explain this accident. Like I said the shooter knew about the dog, It bounced out with tail waging, Passed right past a cop and in a round about way came towards the family and shooter that was hovering over the handcuffed kneeling on the side of the road family with shot gun, The shooter panicked over a dog that was barley tall enough to jump up and bite him in the knee and so he shot it in front of it's teenage owner. SAD. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all police are bad, But I am saying is when they are wrong they should be punished and not protected. A few Police made a few mistakes in this sad ordeal but unfortunately the innocent family has to pay for it. SAD. ------Have a good one!-------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,545 #42 January 10, 2003 Sometimes bad stuff happens and the fault is not really attributable. The dog sounds like an overreaction -- but if police can be human like everyone else, and he's not a dog person, then he might not know the difference between an excited dog and a happy dog and one that's about to go off on you. The family was hurt, no doubt. But the police officer has to follow up on reports like that -- it's his fucking JOB. How much would you object if he hadn't followed up, and it had turned out to be valid? This is an awful situation. I hope I'm never in one like that, and I'm sure I'll be pissed if I am. But that won't make him less right for using felony procedures when a felony has been reported. We might as well prosecute the guy who made the report that led to the stop. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #43 January 10, 2003 I would say that pulling out a gun is unnecessary if the family complied with everything. They did not try to outrun the cops, use force, etc. Which carjackers stash away a dog as a hidden weapon (we're not talking in movies)? The cop used zero judgment and no common sense based on the report that someone was speeding and stuff was coming out the window (am I the only one to ever speed and litter? Didn't know I looked like a carjacker.)There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blewaway5 0 #44 January 10, 2003 AHHH!! People, let's please try to compare the intrinsic worth of one human life versus one dog life. Now, HOPEFULLY, we've all decided that just possibly the human's life is just a tad bit more than the dog's. Not to say that the dog isn't cute and maybe even cuddly, but hey, I pick the people. If we all reached the same point, which hopefully you all value the person over the dog, then we have at least a little common ground to work from. Here we have a police officer involved in what is known as a "felony stop." A report comes in and they don't know whether or not these people are violent offenders or not. All they have is the possibility. So here they go, hold on tight cause this happens a lot faster in real life when it's your life on the line. Quick get the people out of the car at gunpoint. If they are feeling violent they won't be apt to do anything stupid with those guns trained on them. What's this, they're saying something about dogs being in the car. Ah, shit, just what we need, animals in the car we've got to search. Now these people are getting louder proclaiming their innocence. We'll see in a minute. Crap, dog coming out of the door pretty quick. Looks around and zeroes in on nearest human, a cop with a shotgun, and heads pretty much right for him. Officer makes snap judgement and shoots dog in the head, back to covering family. Okay, cops aren't my favorite people usually, simply because damn near every time I have to interact with them I've broken some sort of law, but try to remember that they don't have time to check out the instant replay in the field. The dog probably wasn't going to attack him, but we'll never know. Does this bother me. Oddly, no, I'd rather a dog dies than a person risk injury. Maybe he could have maced the dog or something, sure, but he had that shotgun kinda filling up his hands. Yep, it's a shame the family watched their dog die, but is it a shame that a cop had all of a second to decide if there was a threat and erred on the side of self preservation. Hate to say it, but I bet he'd be better off if he'd shot a person that was running towards him, and that's a sad statement. Truman Sparks for President Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #45 January 10, 2003 QuoteAHHH!! People, let's please try to compare the intrinsic worth of one human life versus one dog life. Now, HOPEFULLY, we've all decided that just possibly the human's life is just a tad bit more than the dog's. Not to say that the dog isn't cute and maybe even cuddly, but hey, I pick the people. If we all reached the same point, which hopefully you all value the person over the dog, then we have at least a little common ground to work from. Here we have a police officer involved in what is known as a "felony stop." A report comes in and they don't know whether or not these people are violent offenders or not. All they have is the possibility. So here they go, hold on tight cause this happens a lot faster in real life when it's your life on the line. Quick get the people out of the car at gunpoint. If they are feeling violent they won't be apt to do anything stupid with those guns trained on them. What's this, they're saying something about dogs being in the car. Ah, shit, just what we need, animals in the car we've got to search. Now these people are getting louder proclaiming their innocence. We'll see in a minute. Crap, dog coming out of the door pretty quick. Looks around and zeroes in on nearest human, a cop with a shotgun, and heads pretty much right for him. Officer makes snap judgement and shoots dog in the head, back to covering family. Okay, cops aren't my favorite people usually, simply because damn near every time I have to interact with them I've broken some sort of law, but try to remember that they don't have time to check out the instant replay in the field. The dog probably wasn't going to attack him, but we'll never know. Does this bother me. Oddly, no, I'd rather a dog dies than a person risk injury. Maybe he could have maced the dog or something, sure, but he had that shotgun kinda filling up his hands. Yep, it's a shame the family watched their dog die, but is it a shame that a cop had all of a second to decide if there was a threat and erred on the side of self preservation. Hate to say it, but I bet he'd be better off if he'd shot a person that was running towards him, and that's a sad statement. well thats all fine and good if his life had been actually threatened, however no single dog (even trained attack dogs) is really a threat to any adults life, particularly a trained police officer in the company of other trained police officers..at worst he would have sustained a nasty bite. the possibility of being bitten does not require lethal response its NOT a life threatening situation. hell he could have just kicked /butt stroked it if he hates dogs.. whatever happened to "respond with appropriateforce". this cop need his badge and gun removed and given a broom, since his judgment is way faulty. Apparently TN doesnt screen or train its law enforcement officers very well..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #46 January 10, 2003 Quote well thats all fine and good if his life had been actually threatened, however no single dog (even trained attack dogs) is really a threat to any adults life, particularly a trained police officer in the company of other trained police officers..at worst he would have sustained a nasty bite. the possibility of being bitten does not require lethal response its NOT a life threatening situation. Well, I imagine some will bust out the few incidents where a dog has killed someone. I could even maybe see the cop shooting the dog if it was a German Shepard, and one of the passengers gave it an attack command. And, in response to an earlier post, it's not that we're sitting here crying over the fact a dog died. It's just ridiculous that someone overreacted to a silly call, especially since upon meeting the family, they gave the cops no reasonable threat.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ladyskydiver 0 #47 January 10, 2003 QuoteI could even maybe see the cop shooting the dog if it was a German Shepard, and one of the passengers gave it an attack command. Ok...I'm not going to get into the debate about this. But...let's be real here...any dog can be used as an attack dog - German Sheppard, Poodle...etc. Just as any dog can be a lap dog. So, please, do not single out a specific breed(s) for being an attack dog. I've raised some of the "attack dog" breeds and have found that they are the most loveable, lap dogs there are.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #48 January 10, 2003 Well, it is much easier to train a German Sheppard to be an attack dog than a Cocker Spaniel. They're huge, smart dogs, but I agree in that they can be gentle. Which is why I said, if the dog was given a command to be anything but gentle, then I could see the cop shooting it.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #49 January 10, 2003 your right dogs have killed people in the past, generally people who were smaller, unaware, or unwilling to harm the dog to stop it. A healthy able adult should never be really threatened by any dog. trained attack dog or not. they are simply too easy to disable by a human. will you get hurt doing so? yes. will you die? no. not unless you let it happen. most cases of dogs killing humans are either in packs, small children, elderly, or someone who would/could not defend themselves. (they let fear rule and so become prey) an armed aware police officer in the company of other armed police officers is NOT in a life threatening situation or even a slightly threatening one. Im not complaining about the dogs death so much that there is an armed and 'trusted' member of the law enforcement community who has such poor training and judgment.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevin922 0 #50 January 10, 2003 Quoteyour right dogs have killed people in the past, generally people who were smaller, unaware, or unwilling to harm the dog to stop it. A healthy able adult should never be really threatened by any dog. trained attack dog or not. they are simply too easy to disable by a human. will you get hurt doing so? yes. will you die? no. not unless you let it happen. most cases of dogs killing humans are either in packs, small children, elderly, or someone who would/could not defend themselves. (they let fear rule and so become prey) an armed aware police officer in the company of other armed police officers is NOT in a life threatening situation or even a slightly threatening one. Im not complaining about the dogs death so much that there is an armed and 'trusted' member of the law enforcement community who has such poor training and judgment. Are you NUTS? Have you seen a police dog work? Yeah if you have a gun and you shoot it in the right place then yeah you can disable one.. but if I had a trained dog eyeing me up and letting me know my ass is about to get a little smaller I would be threatened. I have seen dogs who were sent to attack were SHOT and still hung on to the guy's arm until they died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
skybytch 273 #30 January 10, 2003 QuoteZinger, That whole post of yours was so assinine, I wont even dignify most of it with a response. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my post is asinine (Spelled with one "S" there wizard), You guys done? Let's remember rule one, 'kay? Attack the issue, not the person expressing their opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #31 January 10, 2003 QuoteIt was a dog, and could have been acting defensive. My dog scares the shit out of me when it barks at nothing in the middle of the night, which turns out to be the neighbours coming in . then you obviously should not be a law enforcement officer because your ability to access risk is rather flawed. Dogs as a whole, even trained ones, are EXTREMELY vulnerable to humans, any trained police officer in the company of multiple others should never feel really threatened by any dog. Even in full blown attack mode one of the other officers could have handled the dog without killing it. This fool needs his badge revoked and sent to sell fries, that kind of over reaction is inexcusable. btw before you start flaming about "what do i know" i have 5 family members in law enforcement, and every single one ive talked to about this (3 so far) have said based on the information available currently this was a travesty..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SniperCJ 0 #32 January 10, 2003 Oh Zinger, I spelled it ASS-inine in your honor. And Lisa, I cant help but note that you made no comment when Zinger accused me of being corrupt with THIS comment: "What's wrong?, Mad you where not there to plant a extra gun under the dogs collar to help out a buddy?" Dont worry, I'm signing off this debate... JC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #33 January 10, 2003 QuoteAnd Lisa, I cant help but note that you made no comment Sorry, but I was kinda busy working when he posted the first time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flash 0 #34 January 10, 2003 Well like any profession, You have people that are good at there profession and people that just work in that profession!! besides it was a dam bulldog. Now thats really threatening!! They are only about 1ft. tall. If that is the real story then that asshole should be fired before he shoots an innocent person. Gravity powered...Air cooled! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #35 January 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteZinger, That whole post of yours was so assinine, I wont even dignify most of it with a response.QuoteIf you think my post is asinine (Spelled with one "S" there wizard), What do you think of a paid public servant stopping a innocent family, Handcuffing them by gunpoint, Making them kneel on the side of the road and watch as a cop shoots your dog that you repeatedly asked to have secured in the car? What do you call that? I call it asinine crime. Quote You want to blame somebody for this fiasco, blame the citizen. Maybe they should have minded their own business.You will blame anyone but a fellow brother in blue won't you, I blame the close minded stupid trigger happy cop.They are out there.(Did I use "There" properly that time) QuoteGet a grip on yourself.QuoteI'm not the one that is pissed, I wish the cops with the guns could get a grip. Look, the way I see it (because I have done some law enforcement work) is that the felony stop was done correctly however the judgement of the officer who took the shot seems a little off. I wasn't there, and i have yet to see the video (it's on Cnn.com if anyone has a newspass) but from all the things that have been written in the news it really doesn't seem like the officer was really threatened by the dog. I seem to think that because it was a felony stop (which the officer didn't know the details of) and most likely the officer was not in contact with the "suspects" he didn't know about the dog. When all the sudden something that he isn't expecting comes jumping out of the car his reaction was to shoot. I could be totally off, but that's the only thing I can see to explain this accident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flash 0 #36 January 10, 2003 I have to fully agree with you unlucky1. What they did is what should have been done except for shooting a small bulldog!! But if he was that trigger happy, then he is not safe to protect ANYONE! Gravity powered...Air cooled! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #37 January 10, 2003 QuoteBecause they were reported to be CARJACKING SUSPECTS. Handcuff first, sort it out afterwards. A country where acting like that is standard policy, is one I don't want to live in. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akaGQ 0 #38 January 10, 2003 I say they shoot the cop and see how his dog feels about it. hehehe- GQ ... it was the love of the air and sky and flying, the lure of adventure, the appreciation of beauty ... -Charles Lindberg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freefallfreak 0 #39 January 10, 2003 QuoteI say they shoot the cop and see how his dog feels about it. hehehe Yep....agreed... FFF A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a Unicorn. "Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildblue 7 #40 January 10, 2003 I'm a little biased, because I've (indirectly) had one really bad experience with the TN state patrol. That said - I think better judgement could have been used. In the video, the dog hops out of the car barking and wagging his tail. Now, you could also argue that the dog should have been secured in the car as well, not free to roam around it/out of it. But, it is just a dog too... I can't fault someone for that. Maybe he's not an 'animal lover' - if he felt threatened, it is just a dog. Mace it, shoot it, whatever. I can't really say the whole felony stop thing was wrong of them either. I can't blame them for that. Cops have been shot just trying to give a speeding ticket. Like has been said before, it might be a shitty thing that happened, but I'm not sure you can squarely lay all the blame at one person's feet.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zinger 0 #41 January 10, 2003 QuoteLook, the way I see it (because I have done some law enforcement work) is that the felony stop was done correctly however the judgement of the officer who took the shot seems a little off. Quote I think this is what makes dropzone.com so interesting, Everyone can state how they feel and how they see things and how varied our view points are, And our opinions do vary. The way I see it is that the foundation of this "Felony Stop" is cracked because they did not stop Felons, Of course the cops did not know this, But they are the ones that jumped to that conclusion over a hear say report (First mistake) I believe a few more mistakes happened by at least two more cops after this also. I realize that the police don't know who there dealing with on stops and they have to beware of everyone, But I also believe that a little trigger pressure could of been released when they saw a Family traveling on a public interstate in a family station wagon with clear to see threw windows at a normal family traveling time of day and year with two family dogs. I heard people say that you have to wear the police shoes to know what it's like, and I totally agree, But here is my point, The police put on them shoes on there own and they get paid to wear them and most importantly they are aware of the danger and realize they are going out looking for it wearing them shoes. This innocent family did not have that luxury. QuoteI wasn't there, and i have yet to see the video (it's on Cnn.com if anyone has a newspass) but from all the things that have been written in the news it really doesn't seem like the officer was really threatened by the dog. I did see the video many times and also watched the family on "The Today" show this morning, I feel very sorry for them, There rights where raped and there hearts broken and I expect this trauma will last their remaining life time. For no fault at all of their own. QuoteI seem to think that because it was a felony stop (which the officer didn't know the details of) and most likely the officer was not in contact with the "suspects" he didn't know about the dog. Quote Like I said I watched the video many times, All the cops where standing there listening but ignoring there pleas of common sense to close the door because the dog would get out (Another huge mistake), But they ignored there common sense because it went against there protocol, And that is what makes this so sad, I think "Sad" is the word that best describes this and not because of the poor innocent family dog that was needlessly gunned down. I thinks its sad because that now-a-days people say that it's "Proper Protocol" to stop a innocent family and put them threw this, The police are suppose to protect people from this, Not do it to them.The word "Proper" does not even come close to describe these actions. Quote When all the sudden something that he isn't expecting comes jumping out of the car his reaction was to shoot. I could be totally off, but thats the only thing I can see to explain this accident. Like I said the shooter knew about the dog, It bounced out with tail waging, Passed right past a cop and in a round about way came towards the family and shooter that was hovering over the handcuffed kneeling on the side of the road family with shot gun, The shooter panicked over a dog that was barley tall enough to jump up and bite him in the knee and so he shot it in front of it's teenage owner. SAD. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all police are bad, But I am saying is when they are wrong they should be punished and not protected. A few Police made a few mistakes in this sad ordeal but unfortunately the innocent family has to pay for it. SAD. ------Have a good one!-------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,545 #42 January 10, 2003 Sometimes bad stuff happens and the fault is not really attributable. The dog sounds like an overreaction -- but if police can be human like everyone else, and he's not a dog person, then he might not know the difference between an excited dog and a happy dog and one that's about to go off on you. The family was hurt, no doubt. But the police officer has to follow up on reports like that -- it's his fucking JOB. How much would you object if he hadn't followed up, and it had turned out to be valid? This is an awful situation. I hope I'm never in one like that, and I'm sure I'll be pissed if I am. But that won't make him less right for using felony procedures when a felony has been reported. We might as well prosecute the guy who made the report that led to the stop. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #43 January 10, 2003 I would say that pulling out a gun is unnecessary if the family complied with everything. They did not try to outrun the cops, use force, etc. Which carjackers stash away a dog as a hidden weapon (we're not talking in movies)? The cop used zero judgment and no common sense based on the report that someone was speeding and stuff was coming out the window (am I the only one to ever speed and litter? Didn't know I looked like a carjacker.)There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blewaway5 0 #44 January 10, 2003 AHHH!! People, let's please try to compare the intrinsic worth of one human life versus one dog life. Now, HOPEFULLY, we've all decided that just possibly the human's life is just a tad bit more than the dog's. Not to say that the dog isn't cute and maybe even cuddly, but hey, I pick the people. If we all reached the same point, which hopefully you all value the person over the dog, then we have at least a little common ground to work from. Here we have a police officer involved in what is known as a "felony stop." A report comes in and they don't know whether or not these people are violent offenders or not. All they have is the possibility. So here they go, hold on tight cause this happens a lot faster in real life when it's your life on the line. Quick get the people out of the car at gunpoint. If they are feeling violent they won't be apt to do anything stupid with those guns trained on them. What's this, they're saying something about dogs being in the car. Ah, shit, just what we need, animals in the car we've got to search. Now these people are getting louder proclaiming their innocence. We'll see in a minute. Crap, dog coming out of the door pretty quick. Looks around and zeroes in on nearest human, a cop with a shotgun, and heads pretty much right for him. Officer makes snap judgement and shoots dog in the head, back to covering family. Okay, cops aren't my favorite people usually, simply because damn near every time I have to interact with them I've broken some sort of law, but try to remember that they don't have time to check out the instant replay in the field. The dog probably wasn't going to attack him, but we'll never know. Does this bother me. Oddly, no, I'd rather a dog dies than a person risk injury. Maybe he could have maced the dog or something, sure, but he had that shotgun kinda filling up his hands. Yep, it's a shame the family watched their dog die, but is it a shame that a cop had all of a second to decide if there was a threat and erred on the side of self preservation. Hate to say it, but I bet he'd be better off if he'd shot a person that was running towards him, and that's a sad statement. Truman Sparks for President Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #45 January 10, 2003 QuoteAHHH!! People, let's please try to compare the intrinsic worth of one human life versus one dog life. Now, HOPEFULLY, we've all decided that just possibly the human's life is just a tad bit more than the dog's. Not to say that the dog isn't cute and maybe even cuddly, but hey, I pick the people. If we all reached the same point, which hopefully you all value the person over the dog, then we have at least a little common ground to work from. Here we have a police officer involved in what is known as a "felony stop." A report comes in and they don't know whether or not these people are violent offenders or not. All they have is the possibility. So here they go, hold on tight cause this happens a lot faster in real life when it's your life on the line. Quick get the people out of the car at gunpoint. If they are feeling violent they won't be apt to do anything stupid with those guns trained on them. What's this, they're saying something about dogs being in the car. Ah, shit, just what we need, animals in the car we've got to search. Now these people are getting louder proclaiming their innocence. We'll see in a minute. Crap, dog coming out of the door pretty quick. Looks around and zeroes in on nearest human, a cop with a shotgun, and heads pretty much right for him. Officer makes snap judgement and shoots dog in the head, back to covering family. Okay, cops aren't my favorite people usually, simply because damn near every time I have to interact with them I've broken some sort of law, but try to remember that they don't have time to check out the instant replay in the field. The dog probably wasn't going to attack him, but we'll never know. Does this bother me. Oddly, no, I'd rather a dog dies than a person risk injury. Maybe he could have maced the dog or something, sure, but he had that shotgun kinda filling up his hands. Yep, it's a shame the family watched their dog die, but is it a shame that a cop had all of a second to decide if there was a threat and erred on the side of self preservation. Hate to say it, but I bet he'd be better off if he'd shot a person that was running towards him, and that's a sad statement. well thats all fine and good if his life had been actually threatened, however no single dog (even trained attack dogs) is really a threat to any adults life, particularly a trained police officer in the company of other trained police officers..at worst he would have sustained a nasty bite. the possibility of being bitten does not require lethal response its NOT a life threatening situation. hell he could have just kicked /butt stroked it if he hates dogs.. whatever happened to "respond with appropriateforce". this cop need his badge and gun removed and given a broom, since his judgment is way faulty. Apparently TN doesnt screen or train its law enforcement officers very well..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #46 January 10, 2003 Quote well thats all fine and good if his life had been actually threatened, however no single dog (even trained attack dogs) is really a threat to any adults life, particularly a trained police officer in the company of other trained police officers..at worst he would have sustained a nasty bite. the possibility of being bitten does not require lethal response its NOT a life threatening situation. Well, I imagine some will bust out the few incidents where a dog has killed someone. I could even maybe see the cop shooting the dog if it was a German Shepard, and one of the passengers gave it an attack command. And, in response to an earlier post, it's not that we're sitting here crying over the fact a dog died. It's just ridiculous that someone overreacted to a silly call, especially since upon meeting the family, they gave the cops no reasonable threat.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ladyskydiver 0 #47 January 10, 2003 QuoteI could even maybe see the cop shooting the dog if it was a German Shepard, and one of the passengers gave it an attack command. Ok...I'm not going to get into the debate about this. But...let's be real here...any dog can be used as an attack dog - German Sheppard, Poodle...etc. Just as any dog can be a lap dog. So, please, do not single out a specific breed(s) for being an attack dog. I've raised some of the "attack dog" breeds and have found that they are the most loveable, lap dogs there are.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #48 January 10, 2003 Well, it is much easier to train a German Sheppard to be an attack dog than a Cocker Spaniel. They're huge, smart dogs, but I agree in that they can be gentle. Which is why I said, if the dog was given a command to be anything but gentle, then I could see the cop shooting it.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #49 January 10, 2003 your right dogs have killed people in the past, generally people who were smaller, unaware, or unwilling to harm the dog to stop it. A healthy able adult should never be really threatened by any dog. trained attack dog or not. they are simply too easy to disable by a human. will you get hurt doing so? yes. will you die? no. not unless you let it happen. most cases of dogs killing humans are either in packs, small children, elderly, or someone who would/could not defend themselves. (they let fear rule and so become prey) an armed aware police officer in the company of other armed police officers is NOT in a life threatening situation or even a slightly threatening one. Im not complaining about the dogs death so much that there is an armed and 'trusted' member of the law enforcement community who has such poor training and judgment.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevin922 0 #50 January 10, 2003 Quoteyour right dogs have killed people in the past, generally people who were smaller, unaware, or unwilling to harm the dog to stop it. A healthy able adult should never be really threatened by any dog. trained attack dog or not. they are simply too easy to disable by a human. will you get hurt doing so? yes. will you die? no. not unless you let it happen. most cases of dogs killing humans are either in packs, small children, elderly, or someone who would/could not defend themselves. (they let fear rule and so become prey) an armed aware police officer in the company of other armed police officers is NOT in a life threatening situation or even a slightly threatening one. Im not complaining about the dogs death so much that there is an armed and 'trusted' member of the law enforcement community who has such poor training and judgment. Are you NUTS? Have you seen a police dog work? Yeah if you have a gun and you shoot it in the right place then yeah you can disable one.. but if I had a trained dog eyeing me up and letting me know my ass is about to get a little smaller I would be threatened. I have seen dogs who were sent to attack were SHOT and still hung on to the guy's arm until they died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
flash 0 #36 January 10, 2003 I have to fully agree with you unlucky1. What they did is what should have been done except for shooting a small bulldog!! But if he was that trigger happy, then he is not safe to protect ANYONE! Gravity powered...Air cooled! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #37 January 10, 2003 QuoteBecause they were reported to be CARJACKING SUSPECTS. Handcuff first, sort it out afterwards. A country where acting like that is standard policy, is one I don't want to live in. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akaGQ 0 #38 January 10, 2003 I say they shoot the cop and see how his dog feels about it. hehehe- GQ ... it was the love of the air and sky and flying, the lure of adventure, the appreciation of beauty ... -Charles Lindberg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefallfreak 0 #39 January 10, 2003 QuoteI say they shoot the cop and see how his dog feels about it. hehehe Yep....agreed... FFF A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a Unicorn. "Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #40 January 10, 2003 I'm a little biased, because I've (indirectly) had one really bad experience with the TN state patrol. That said - I think better judgement could have been used. In the video, the dog hops out of the car barking and wagging his tail. Now, you could also argue that the dog should have been secured in the car as well, not free to roam around it/out of it. But, it is just a dog too... I can't fault someone for that. Maybe he's not an 'animal lover' - if he felt threatened, it is just a dog. Mace it, shoot it, whatever. I can't really say the whole felony stop thing was wrong of them either. I can't blame them for that. Cops have been shot just trying to give a speeding ticket. Like has been said before, it might be a shitty thing that happened, but I'm not sure you can squarely lay all the blame at one person's feet.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zinger 0 #41 January 10, 2003 QuoteLook, the way I see it (because I have done some law enforcement work) is that the felony stop was done correctly however the judgement of the officer who took the shot seems a little off. Quote I think this is what makes dropzone.com so interesting, Everyone can state how they feel and how they see things and how varied our view points are, And our opinions do vary. The way I see it is that the foundation of this "Felony Stop" is cracked because they did not stop Felons, Of course the cops did not know this, But they are the ones that jumped to that conclusion over a hear say report (First mistake) I believe a few more mistakes happened by at least two more cops after this also. I realize that the police don't know who there dealing with on stops and they have to beware of everyone, But I also believe that a little trigger pressure could of been released when they saw a Family traveling on a public interstate in a family station wagon with clear to see threw windows at a normal family traveling time of day and year with two family dogs. I heard people say that you have to wear the police shoes to know what it's like, and I totally agree, But here is my point, The police put on them shoes on there own and they get paid to wear them and most importantly they are aware of the danger and realize they are going out looking for it wearing them shoes. This innocent family did not have that luxury. QuoteI wasn't there, and i have yet to see the video (it's on Cnn.com if anyone has a newspass) but from all the things that have been written in the news it really doesn't seem like the officer was really threatened by the dog. I did see the video many times and also watched the family on "The Today" show this morning, I feel very sorry for them, There rights where raped and there hearts broken and I expect this trauma will last their remaining life time. For no fault at all of their own. QuoteI seem to think that because it was a felony stop (which the officer didn't know the details of) and most likely the officer was not in contact with the "suspects" he didn't know about the dog. Quote Like I said I watched the video many times, All the cops where standing there listening but ignoring there pleas of common sense to close the door because the dog would get out (Another huge mistake), But they ignored there common sense because it went against there protocol, And that is what makes this so sad, I think "Sad" is the word that best describes this and not because of the poor innocent family dog that was needlessly gunned down. I thinks its sad because that now-a-days people say that it's "Proper Protocol" to stop a innocent family and put them threw this, The police are suppose to protect people from this, Not do it to them.The word "Proper" does not even come close to describe these actions. Quote When all the sudden something that he isn't expecting comes jumping out of the car his reaction was to shoot. I could be totally off, but thats the only thing I can see to explain this accident. Like I said the shooter knew about the dog, It bounced out with tail waging, Passed right past a cop and in a round about way came towards the family and shooter that was hovering over the handcuffed kneeling on the side of the road family with shot gun, The shooter panicked over a dog that was barley tall enough to jump up and bite him in the knee and so he shot it in front of it's teenage owner. SAD. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all police are bad, But I am saying is when they are wrong they should be punished and not protected. A few Police made a few mistakes in this sad ordeal but unfortunately the innocent family has to pay for it. SAD. ------Have a good one!-------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,545 #42 January 10, 2003 Sometimes bad stuff happens and the fault is not really attributable. The dog sounds like an overreaction -- but if police can be human like everyone else, and he's not a dog person, then he might not know the difference between an excited dog and a happy dog and one that's about to go off on you. The family was hurt, no doubt. But the police officer has to follow up on reports like that -- it's his fucking JOB. How much would you object if he hadn't followed up, and it had turned out to be valid? This is an awful situation. I hope I'm never in one like that, and I'm sure I'll be pissed if I am. But that won't make him less right for using felony procedures when a felony has been reported. We might as well prosecute the guy who made the report that led to the stop. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #43 January 10, 2003 I would say that pulling out a gun is unnecessary if the family complied with everything. They did not try to outrun the cops, use force, etc. Which carjackers stash away a dog as a hidden weapon (we're not talking in movies)? The cop used zero judgment and no common sense based on the report that someone was speeding and stuff was coming out the window (am I the only one to ever speed and litter? Didn't know I looked like a carjacker.)There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blewaway5 0 #44 January 10, 2003 AHHH!! People, let's please try to compare the intrinsic worth of one human life versus one dog life. Now, HOPEFULLY, we've all decided that just possibly the human's life is just a tad bit more than the dog's. Not to say that the dog isn't cute and maybe even cuddly, but hey, I pick the people. If we all reached the same point, which hopefully you all value the person over the dog, then we have at least a little common ground to work from. Here we have a police officer involved in what is known as a "felony stop." A report comes in and they don't know whether or not these people are violent offenders or not. All they have is the possibility. So here they go, hold on tight cause this happens a lot faster in real life when it's your life on the line. Quick get the people out of the car at gunpoint. If they are feeling violent they won't be apt to do anything stupid with those guns trained on them. What's this, they're saying something about dogs being in the car. Ah, shit, just what we need, animals in the car we've got to search. Now these people are getting louder proclaiming their innocence. We'll see in a minute. Crap, dog coming out of the door pretty quick. Looks around and zeroes in on nearest human, a cop with a shotgun, and heads pretty much right for him. Officer makes snap judgement and shoots dog in the head, back to covering family. Okay, cops aren't my favorite people usually, simply because damn near every time I have to interact with them I've broken some sort of law, but try to remember that they don't have time to check out the instant replay in the field. The dog probably wasn't going to attack him, but we'll never know. Does this bother me. Oddly, no, I'd rather a dog dies than a person risk injury. Maybe he could have maced the dog or something, sure, but he had that shotgun kinda filling up his hands. Yep, it's a shame the family watched their dog die, but is it a shame that a cop had all of a second to decide if there was a threat and erred on the side of self preservation. Hate to say it, but I bet he'd be better off if he'd shot a person that was running towards him, and that's a sad statement. Truman Sparks for President Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #45 January 10, 2003 QuoteAHHH!! People, let's please try to compare the intrinsic worth of one human life versus one dog life. Now, HOPEFULLY, we've all decided that just possibly the human's life is just a tad bit more than the dog's. Not to say that the dog isn't cute and maybe even cuddly, but hey, I pick the people. If we all reached the same point, which hopefully you all value the person over the dog, then we have at least a little common ground to work from. Here we have a police officer involved in what is known as a "felony stop." A report comes in and they don't know whether or not these people are violent offenders or not. All they have is the possibility. So here they go, hold on tight cause this happens a lot faster in real life when it's your life on the line. Quick get the people out of the car at gunpoint. If they are feeling violent they won't be apt to do anything stupid with those guns trained on them. What's this, they're saying something about dogs being in the car. Ah, shit, just what we need, animals in the car we've got to search. Now these people are getting louder proclaiming their innocence. We'll see in a minute. Crap, dog coming out of the door pretty quick. Looks around and zeroes in on nearest human, a cop with a shotgun, and heads pretty much right for him. Officer makes snap judgement and shoots dog in the head, back to covering family. Okay, cops aren't my favorite people usually, simply because damn near every time I have to interact with them I've broken some sort of law, but try to remember that they don't have time to check out the instant replay in the field. The dog probably wasn't going to attack him, but we'll never know. Does this bother me. Oddly, no, I'd rather a dog dies than a person risk injury. Maybe he could have maced the dog or something, sure, but he had that shotgun kinda filling up his hands. Yep, it's a shame the family watched their dog die, but is it a shame that a cop had all of a second to decide if there was a threat and erred on the side of self preservation. Hate to say it, but I bet he'd be better off if he'd shot a person that was running towards him, and that's a sad statement. well thats all fine and good if his life had been actually threatened, however no single dog (even trained attack dogs) is really a threat to any adults life, particularly a trained police officer in the company of other trained police officers..at worst he would have sustained a nasty bite. the possibility of being bitten does not require lethal response its NOT a life threatening situation. hell he could have just kicked /butt stroked it if he hates dogs.. whatever happened to "respond with appropriateforce". this cop need his badge and gun removed and given a broom, since his judgment is way faulty. Apparently TN doesnt screen or train its law enforcement officers very well..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #46 January 10, 2003 Quote well thats all fine and good if his life had been actually threatened, however no single dog (even trained attack dogs) is really a threat to any adults life, particularly a trained police officer in the company of other trained police officers..at worst he would have sustained a nasty bite. the possibility of being bitten does not require lethal response its NOT a life threatening situation. Well, I imagine some will bust out the few incidents where a dog has killed someone. I could even maybe see the cop shooting the dog if it was a German Shepard, and one of the passengers gave it an attack command. And, in response to an earlier post, it's not that we're sitting here crying over the fact a dog died. It's just ridiculous that someone overreacted to a silly call, especially since upon meeting the family, they gave the cops no reasonable threat.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #47 January 10, 2003 QuoteI could even maybe see the cop shooting the dog if it was a German Shepard, and one of the passengers gave it an attack command. Ok...I'm not going to get into the debate about this. But...let's be real here...any dog can be used as an attack dog - German Sheppard, Poodle...etc. Just as any dog can be a lap dog. So, please, do not single out a specific breed(s) for being an attack dog. I've raised some of the "attack dog" breeds and have found that they are the most loveable, lap dogs there are.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #48 January 10, 2003 Well, it is much easier to train a German Sheppard to be an attack dog than a Cocker Spaniel. They're huge, smart dogs, but I agree in that they can be gentle. Which is why I said, if the dog was given a command to be anything but gentle, then I could see the cop shooting it.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #49 January 10, 2003 your right dogs have killed people in the past, generally people who were smaller, unaware, or unwilling to harm the dog to stop it. A healthy able adult should never be really threatened by any dog. trained attack dog or not. they are simply too easy to disable by a human. will you get hurt doing so? yes. will you die? no. not unless you let it happen. most cases of dogs killing humans are either in packs, small children, elderly, or someone who would/could not defend themselves. (they let fear rule and so become prey) an armed aware police officer in the company of other armed police officers is NOT in a life threatening situation or even a slightly threatening one. Im not complaining about the dogs death so much that there is an armed and 'trusted' member of the law enforcement community who has such poor training and judgment.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #50 January 10, 2003 Quoteyour right dogs have killed people in the past, generally people who were smaller, unaware, or unwilling to harm the dog to stop it. A healthy able adult should never be really threatened by any dog. trained attack dog or not. they are simply too easy to disable by a human. will you get hurt doing so? yes. will you die? no. not unless you let it happen. most cases of dogs killing humans are either in packs, small children, elderly, or someone who would/could not defend themselves. (they let fear rule and so become prey) an armed aware police officer in the company of other armed police officers is NOT in a life threatening situation or even a slightly threatening one. Im not complaining about the dogs death so much that there is an armed and 'trusted' member of the law enforcement community who has such poor training and judgment. Are you NUTS? Have you seen a police dog work? Yeah if you have a gun and you shoot it in the right place then yeah you can disable one.. but if I had a trained dog eyeing me up and letting me know my ass is about to get a little smaller I would be threatened. I have seen dogs who were sent to attack were SHOT and still hung on to the guy's arm until they died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
