Police Shoot Dog During Traffic Stop -- Had the wrong people. (OH MY GOSH!)

[Deuce 1]

I'm glad I'm out of the business.

Just about all of you assume the press has it right. You don't have the police side of the story, but most of you figure they fucked up. Maybe they did.

The public suffers from "why didn't you fire a warning shot?" syndrome. "You're a big, tough guy, you should have let him hit you once to justify using your baton on him" "You're wearing boots, let the dog bite them while you lasso it with your hobble" "Shoot him in the leg" "Shoot the gun out of his hand".

Silly. Because of this public animosity the public is going to get more and more antisocial cops. The public is not really interested in finding out how to get more effective law enforcement, it just loves this "Sue them" "Become their worst nightmare" mentality.

Nothing but negative reinforcement is going to give you a huge crew of negative cops.

[bmcd308 0]

http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/03/01/27473390.shtml

Another link

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www.jumpelvis.com

[Zenister 0]

yes, and ive worked and lived with police dogs as well (my father was 1st shirt for a K9 unit in the AF)

so long as you are willing to kill, it is rather simple. You will very likely be injured but thats about it. Even large rotwilers (thoose with the heaviest neck muscles) are rather easy to disable, particularly once they latch on to your arm at that point you have all the leverage (more stable position and its own body weight as a lever, basic judo) you need to break its neck, or shove your hand the rest of the way down its throat and choke it. Hell if you have the will to do so its not difficult to put your hand thru its neck, no gun necessary. most people severely underestimate their own lethality.

it all comes down to a commitment to take a life in defense of your own. most people have never thought thru such situations, and or are unwilling to kill. for a police officer not to have trained and understand these kinds of situations is inexcusable

ps. last time i checked being bitten on the arm was not a life threatening injury and i have often been told i'm nuts..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kevin922 0]

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yes, and ive worked and lived with police dogs as well (my father was 1st shirt for a K9 unit in the AF)

so long as you are willing to kill, it is rather simple. You will very likely be injured but thats about it. Even large rotwilers (thoose with the heaviest neck muscles) are rather easy to disable, particularly once they latch on to your arm at that point you have all the leverage (more stable position and its own body weight as a lever, basic judo) you need to break its neck, or shove your hand the rest of the way down its throat and choke it. Hell if you have the will to do so its not difficult to put your hand thru its neck, no gun necessary. most people severely underestimate their own lethality.

it all comes down to a commitment to take a life in defense of your own. most people have never thought thru such situations, and or are unwilling to kill. for a police officer not to have trained and understand these kinds of situations is inexcusable

ps. last time i checked being bitten on the arm was not a life threatening injury and i have often been told i'm nuts..

No, being bit on the arm is not life threatining.. i wasn't saying a police dog will kill but that doesn't mean he/she won't tear the shit out of you. I can be fearful of a dog even knowing that it isn't going to kill me.

But i see what you're saying.

[DJL 235]

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Why is it that whenever a skydiving fatality happens and someone posts a story the FIRST thing that people reply is "lets wait for the official report before we jump to any conclusions".

But, by God when a cop story comes out and it looks bad, the cops sure fucked that up!

I think I'm more quick to take this report as gospel because everyone has been pulled over, knows their rights, has seen COPS, knows that reporters are well versed on police matters. This is not the case with skydiving. The video of the event was released, the police released their report. This isn't a matter of jumping to conclusions. We know the report doesn't capture what was going through the cop's head as he stood on the side of a drug trafficking highway with dogs running around, but we know it's just about right. I just think the guy was stupid.

-Doug

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Deuce 1]

A very good report. The officer actually waits too long to shoot the dog, and does so at point blank range while backing up.

A "mixed-breed bulldog" is a pitbull.

The question is: should the cop have let the dog bite him before taking defensive action? Having seen resistant subject have their scrotums torn open by police dogs on two occasions, my answer is 'no'.

Could the cop have used a bean bag round on the dog? Yes. But if a gunfight had erupted during the chaotic first moments of the car stop, a beanbag shotgun might have cost the lives of cops or suspects.

Bad deal all around.

[steve1 5]

I probably have more respect for the police than most people. My brother is a cop. But after watching this video I really think the officer who shot the dog really dropped the ball. Here comes a little dog romping out of the vehicle, wagging it's tail, and the guy blows him away with a shotgun. I can see using lethal force, if your life is in jeapordy, but I sure can't see anything of the sort in this scenario. Steve1

[billvon 2,991]

>A "mixed-breed bulldog" is a pitbull.

To anyone who's afraid of dogs, all dogs are pitbulls.

>The question is: should the cop have let the dog bite him before
> taking defensive action?

If any dog that approaches an officer is a threat, then by your logic, an officer should kill any dog that approaches it. After all, why take the chance that that friendly mutt is really a trained killer al Quaeda pitbull? Maybe it's one of those dogs that looks real friendly until it latches on to your neck and kills you.

Fortunately, reasonable people can tell the difference. I've dealt with perhaps 500 dogs in my life, and been attacked twice. Both times I could see it coming, and thus managed to avoid injury to myself or the dog. I would expect any police officer that might come in contact with the general public to have such an ability.

[Zenister 0]

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The question is: should the cop have let the dog bite him before taking defensive action? Having seen resistant subject have their scrotums torn open by police dogs on two occasions, my answer is 'no'.

agreed, if the dog was actually threatening him. barking growling etc. dogs have very obvious 'warning signs' and very few dogs will actually lunge at humans unless trained to do so. Its pretty clear (to me and the family ive asked who have seen it) from the video that the dog was not threatening and that the officer overreacted.

threat assesment is a training issue. the fortunate part is that it was only a dog. based on his reaction during this incident, this guy seems like an accident waiting to happen..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[DJL 235]

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threat assesment is a training issue. the fortunate part is that it was only a dog. based on his reaction during this incident, this guy seems like an accident waiting to happen..

I agree. The cops should have begun this threat assessment starting with what was coming over dispatch "may be involved", next, seeing the difference between a confused driver and someone who knows he's caught, next, how calmly and cooperatively the family acted, next, a dog that was not showing aggression.

I don't think it's a big deal that the dog died, but that these guys handled the situation so poorly. What if it had been a mentally handicapped kid and he freaked out because his family was being handcuffed and guns pointed at them. This thing with the dog is like training and he failed by a trial by fire. They should get rid of him because of his lack of sound judgement.

The family shouldn't go for a law suit, there's no point. They just need to realize that it sucks and if the system works then this guy will be dealt with correctly.

-Doug

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[skycop 0]

I haven't seen the video but, the theme is starting to sound familiar.
I see people bitching on here all the time about how the press makes skydiving look bad when there is an accident. Many commenting on this situation have answers based on VERY false assumptions. Skydivers HATE false assumptions about skydiving when things go bad, well, welcome to a day in my life!!
There is no way I'm going to let ANY dog bite me, i don't give a shit how big or small it is. There are people on here saying the officer should have let the dog bite him, that is absolute bullshit!!!
I've shot several dogs during my career, these animals presented either a danger to me or somebody else. I didn't start my shift by saying "I'm gonna kill me a dog today" Neither did these guys!
The bottom line is these troopers made a decision, which in 20-20 hindsight may not have been the best one however, no people were hurt.
I'm sure the family will sue, the state will settle and life will go on.
I'm sorry this family had to see FIDO take a round to the grape. They will be more than compensated I'm sure for FIDO's untimely demise.
If your curious why cops act like they do check out this page
www.odmp.org[/url]

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Deuce 1]

Well, you can both go out and be reserve police officers and see for yourself. Frankly, I dare you.

You've just been told that a car has been taken by robbery. You've got the car, you don't have the gun, the suspects are running their mouths like suspects do to keep you off balance and a pitbull dog charges you out of the dark. You are afraid for your life and you don't take the time to see if the dog is smiling and wagging it's tail.

Everybody in hindsight is telling you how you had all the time in the world to do doggie threat assessment and you should have telepathically known that dispatch fucked up. I mean, hey!, suspects always tell you the truth. You do a felony stop on what dispatch said was a robbery and the suspects tell you that they didn't do it, you should just take their word for it and let them go! When they tell you the dog is no threat, you should believe them, suspects wouldn't lie to the police, right?

I've been to a lot of cop funerals and heard "Amazing Grace" on the bagpipes too many times. In every case but one, that I recall right now, they died pausing while they should have been acting.

The whole thing would have been prevented if the family had looped the stupid dogs leash through a door handle while they were pulling over.

-I have two dogs, by the way, that I dote over. Shiba-Inus. They're cool.

[kevin922 0]

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Well, you can both go out and be reserve police officers and see for yourself. Frankly, I dare you.

You've just been told that a car has been taken by robbery. You've got the car, you don't have the gun, the suspects are running their mouths like suspects do to keep you off balance and a pitbull dog charges you out of the dark. You are afraid for your life and you don't take the time to see if the dog is smiling and wagging it's tail.

Everybody in hindsight is telling you how you had all the time in the world to do doggie threat assessment and you should have telepathically known that dispatch fucked up. I mean, hey!, suspects always tell you the truth. You do a felony stop on what dispatch said was a robbery and the suspects tell you that they didn't do it, you should just take their word for it and let them go! When they tell you the dog is no threat, you should believe them, suspects wouldn't lie to the police, right?

I've been to a lot of cop funerals and heard "Amazing Grace" on the bagpipes too many times. In every case but one, that I recall right now, they died pausing while they should have been acting.

The whole thing would have been prevented if the family had looped the stupid dogs leash through a door handle while they were pulling over.

-I have two dogs, by the way, that I dote over. Shiba-Inus. They're cool.

Well I agree with you up to the point about the whole thing could have been avoided if....

The family did nothing wrong, and were being pulled over. If I had done nothing wrong and was being pulled over the last thing I'd expect would be that i was involved in a felony stop and would be out of my car. Now at the point where i realize it's a felony stop had i turned around to put my dog on a leash i probably would be putting myself in jeapordy of being shot as the officer at that point had no idea i had a dog in the car. It's just a messed up situation.

[skycop 0]

By the way I'm an animal lover too. I've got three cats. We even adopted a greyhound several years back. But I'm realistic about animals when I'm working.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[skycop 0]

[www.odmp.orgurl]

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[skycop 0]

my computer skills suck!!!! someone help me!!

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Zenister 0]

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There is no way I'm going to let ANY dog bite me, i don't give a shit how big or small it is. There are people on here saying the officer should have let the dog bite him, that is absolute bullshit!!!

just as a hypothetical question then, you would use deadly force to keep a dog from biting you?

how about to keep someone from hitting / biting you? obviously not life threating situations, would you use deadly force??

there isnt alot of difference there, except for the fact that many people harbor internal fears of animals that they dont about humans and so overreact when confronted by them.

there is also a difference between a solo officer dealing with a suspect and his dog vs multiple officers in the same scenario.

i'm pretty sure one of the principles of law enforcement is to apply only the force necessary to defuse the situation. Shooting this dog was clearly unnecessary. I actually hope the family sues the individual responsible as well..actions should have consequences. The taking any life unnecessarily should be punished by more than a slap on the wrist by his superiors, and money taken from the tax players pockets.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[akaGQ 0]

I still say shoot the cop and see how his (the cops) dog feels about it.

- GQ

... it was the love of the air and sky and flying, the lure of adventure, the appreciation of beauty ...
-Charles Lindberg

[wmw999 2,446]

Officer Down Memorial Page

Making it clicky. Worth looking at. Remember folks that a disproportionate number of the people that beat cops deal with are, in fact, guilty. Doesn't make the innocent ones less innocent, just something to keep in mind.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Deuce 1]

I just don't know how this gap between cops and folks got so huge. It saddens me.

[Michele 1]

www.odmp.org

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[akaGQ 0]

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I just don't know how this gap between cops and folks got so huge. It saddens me.

I can tell you this much I think my problem would be that evertime I seem to do anything that either stretches or breaks the law one just happens to appear.

- GQ

... it was the love of the air and sky and flying, the lure of adventure, the appreciation of beauty ...
-Charles Lindberg

[Mindcake 0]

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I've been to a lot of cop funerals and heard "Amazing Grace" on the bagpipes too many times. In every case but one, that I recall right now, they died pausing while they should have been acting.

sorry, but this is a risk that every cop take's, we are all saddened by the loss of any life, but this is a risk taken by every peace officer. Our justice system stipulates that you are innocent until proven guilty, the officer should have given handcuffed prisoners the benifit of the doubt and closed the car door. This was a bad decision by the officer that shot the dog and if they don't fire him then he should go through some crisis training so he can better handle the situation next time.

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The whole thing would have been prevented if the family had looped the stupid dogs leash through a door handle while they were pulling over.

sorry dude but when I get pulled over, knowing that the worst thing I may have done is drive 5 mph over the last thing I am thinking is : Oh shit I had better tie my dog to the door so a cop dosent shoot him. Get real



Jim

Don´t belive the hype

[Deuce 1]

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Get real

I have experience. You have an opinion, and an attitude.

I'm done with this thread.

[skycop 0]

If I were getting my ass kicked bad, I WOULD use deadly force.
I had my jaw broken once while working, during the fight I almost used deadly force however, I became REALLY pissed and kicked the guys ass until help arrived.
I will shoot a dog in a minute if i feel threatened by it. It is just that.........A DOG......not a person. The rules of using deadly force apply, if I have a bad or no suitable backstop, I have to take the bite.
In your perfect world zen I make those decisions in a nano second. I have made those decisions and I sleep good at night even though I don't like it much.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"