Ted Nelson Accident Anniversary

[billvon 3,031]

> By the way, if Ted was so dangerous in the air, why was he allowed to
>continue to jump at his DZ?

An excellent question, and one of the primary reasons this is often discussed.

I've had experiences with people like Ted. We talked to them; they wouldn't listen. "I'm a better canopy pilot than you!" was one reply. Finally I grounded them. (3 of them total.) They said they'd just go to Perris. I called Perris and they agreed to ground them as well. They were very upset; called me all sorts of names.

About six months later I was at a boogie at another DZ. One of them (Mark) came up to me and said "you don't have any authority HERE! Ha! I can jump whatever I like, however I like!" And before the end of the day he had broken his hand.

Fast forward a few years. One broke his femur; that was enough to scare him, and he learned caution. One broke his pelvis and back so badly that he will never walk without crutches again, and will certainly never jump again. We lost track of the third guy.

Now, these guys were relatively lucky. They are all still alive (as far as I know.) But I couldn't reach them no matter what I did.

You knew Ted well; can you think of a way one of us could have reached him before his final jump?

>And why did other very experienced jumpers continue to jump with him
>and mentor him?

Well, "mentoring" (education) is one of the ways to _prevent_ accidents like this. Of course, it has to be good education. Fortunately there's a lot of it out there.

>Ted was encouraged to advance at an aggressive pace in this sport and
>that also contributed to his death.

From my conversations with him, Ted was the one pushing Ted's progression most aggressively.

[billvon 3,031]

An administrative note - if you create other accounts to post on here, both accounts will be locked and your posts will be deleted. Only one account per person.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Did Ted make a mistake? Hell yeah he did. But what I don't get is why drudge up a "slam Ted" thread? What did he do so different than all the other fatalities (swooping or not)? I don't see the "so and so" one year aniversary thread popping up on a daily basis yet there are enough fatalities out there. I am sure swooping related accidents will continue to occur, but from what I can see the message of canopy piloting is getting out and many (not all) people are hearing it. If you look at the rash of recent fatalities, death is still occurring for many reasons, not just swooping. Assuming I'm even here one year from now, I'm looking forward to listening to people slam some poor old guy for not opening anything or how about slaming a friend who decided to take his own life? Oh and I have a friend of mine who passed away last fall, is someone going to start the slam "my friend" thread on the one year aniversary of his passing? Looking forward to that thread. Sure hope this Kevin guy never fucks ups. Can we reference this thread if he ever does?

There are far too many judgmental people out there.

Steve - seems to me like you're intentionally misinterpreting the OP's actions so you can go off on your soapbox again and ride the persecution train into the sunset....

I mean really it's very clear that the OP was trying to remind us all of a lesson that seems to continuously 'slip through the cracks' (typically by people ignoring it).

Sure, the OP could have omitted the persons name - but then again that just makes them another nameless entity and a statistic - instead of a once living, human being capable of making the same bad decisions as the rest of us.

How bout, instead of getting up in arms about it all, we go and reread the thread and see if we're exhibiting any of the characteristics that Ted did? If not, great, and if so then fix them in ourselves.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kkeenan 14]

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Did Ted make a mistake? Hell yeah he did. But what I don't get is why drudge up a "slam Ted" thread? What did he do so different than all the other fatalities (swooping or not)?

OK. Here's the difference. This is about the attitude that can lead to accidents. The person who is the subject of this discussion went out of his way to announce actions on this forum that were considered unsafe. He then went to great lengths to combatively and abusively rant against those who tried to give him advise, calling them all sorts of names and insisting that he was different from anyone else that they may have seen have an accident. He told all who would listen that he was fine and didn't need anyone's advice. That's what's different. That's what has earned him the "poster boy" reference and the noteriety in this forum.

Too many in our sport still have this attitude. That is why this needs to be highlighted in their consciousness. Not that someone made a mistake - that happens all the time - but that someone resisted so strongly all attempts by people to help him.

The Lesson, to everyone worldwide, is that if a whole lot of your friends, many professionals and folks with tremendous experience, all tell you that there is a problem with something that you are doing, maybe that is worth listening to.

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Sure hope this Kevin guy never fucks ups. Can we reference this thread if he ever does?

I have screwed up plenty over the years. I have written about a few significant mistakes here, in hope of saving someone the trouble, pain, and danger of making the same mistake. I have tried to listen when other, more experienced jumpers gave me advise. If this thread were about me thumping my chest and announcing that I am Gods's gift to skydiving, I would certainly would expect it to come back to roost.

Kevin Keenan

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[billvon 3,031]

>kkeenan simply says Ted "fucked up".

No, he didn't. Indeed, in the original thread, Ted was doing most of the namecalling.

>You are just folks wanting to feel superior.

Many of us are people wanting to have living, rather than dead, friends. Ted's death was a tragedy - at most we can use the lessons learned from his death to keep this from happening again, if we can.

[tedsuncle 0]

Canuck, you are most correct. Thank you for expressing what I am feeling. I have been "banned" under my tedsauntcindy name because they do not like what I say. But I will say it again. Your self-policing obviously isn't working. You need only look at all the accidents and deaths in just the last year caused by low turns and canopy collisions. Perhaps it is time for the legislatures to act. I, for one, am unwilling to leave it to the pompous musings of kkeenan, billvon and kallend in the future. oops...I said it again...I'll be banned! Oh no

[kallend 2,070]

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This is the USA - we have freedom to choose our way. Some do not choose wisely.

Really? That's funny cause I thought DZ.COM was more global and not specific to a given country. I mean it's founder is not American. I guess I should log off now since I am not in America.

Ted jumped in the USA. He died in the USA. His aunt called for legislation in the post to which I responded. Legislation is a national activity. My reference to the USA was a reference to this incident.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BillyVance 34]

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Bodypilot was right. You are getting a PM from an upset aunt of Mr. Nelson. All I can say to you is it is too bad that nobody would care to remenber the anniversary of your passing. Ted accomplished more in his 29 years than you will in a lifetime, Mr. Keenan.

I seriously doubt that. I know Mr Keenan somewhat, and he has done a lot of great things in the sport, having been on world records in multiple disciplines.

What his purpose in posting this thread was to make skydivers wake up and lose the "invincible attitude" because it kills, not to attack your nephew's name, but to use his incident as an example of what NOT to do.

Other than that, my condolences for your loss.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[BillyVance 34]

oh and yeah, tedsuncle is about to get banned too, if that name hasn't already.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[beowulf 1]

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Canuck, you are most correct. Thank you for expressing what I am feeling. I have been "banned" under my tedsauntcindy name because they do not like what I say. But I will say it again. Your self-policing obviously isn't working. You need only look at all the accidents and deaths in just the last year caused by low turns and canopy collisions. Perhaps it is time for the legislatures to act. I, for one, am unwilling to leave it to the pompous musings of kkeenan, billvon and kallend in the future. oops...I said it again...I'll be banned! Oh no

What kind of law do you propose to stop people like Ted from getting themselves killed?

[kallend 2,070]

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Canuck, you are most correct. Thank you for expressing what I am feeling. I have been "banned" under my tedsauntcindy name because they do not like what I say. But I will say it again. Your self-policing obviously isn't working. You need only look at all the accidents and deaths in just the last year caused by low turns and canopy collisions. Perhaps it is time for the legislatures to act. I, for one, am unwilling to leave it to the pompous musings of kkeenan, billvon and kallend in the future. oops...I said it again...I'll be banned! Oh no

Is it the legislature's job to protect adults from their own hubris?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tedsuncle 0]

Actually, I intend to propose that all DZ's be required to post accurate accounts of alll deaths and accidents that have occurred at the DZ in plain view. The records would be cross-referenced by DZ as well as DZ ownership. It is time that those in power of who goes up have more than their own financial interests to motivate the decision of who flies what at their DZ. That a start...Fine legal minds can come up with others.

[tedsuncle 0]

Gee isn't that what governments have been doing since the start of time?

[beowulf 1]

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Gee isn't that what governments have been doing since the start of time?

Yeah with out much success. People still manage to kill themselves and do stupid shit.

[headoverheels 333]

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Actually, I intend to propose that all DZ's be required to post accurate accounts of all deaths and accidents that have occurred at the DZ in plain view. The records would be cross-referenced by DZ as well as DZ ownership. It is time that those in power of who goes up have more than their own financial interests to motivate the decision of who flies what at their DZ. That a start...Fine legal minds can come up with others.

Maybe they should just post pictures of bone-headed skydivers, with the label DGIT. Maybe Denny's should have to post accounts of every heart attack from someone who made too many trips to the breakfast buffet.

Ted was not a newby. He had ample opportunity to observe other people with bad outcomes, and correct his attitude.

[kallend 2,070]

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Gee isn't that what governments have been doing since the start of time?

No. Most laws are to protect others from the antisocial behavior of those who are stupid, reckless or criminally inclined.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I intend to propose that all DZ's be required to post accurate accounts of alll deaths and accidents that have occurred at the DZ in plain view.

What do you hope to accomplish with this?

Who are you thinking should enforce this?

How is this any different from the incidents section here on DZ.com? (Which is a much more complete accident/incident database than USPA can maintain).

Derek

[rehmwa 2]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1107792#1107792

"i'll be here tomorrow and the next day, even though you think i know less than you. i appreciate your concern but, in my experience, those with above-average ability progress on a steeper learning curve than the average"

If one can't see the lesson here that will possibly save a few newer cocky skydivers today, then they never will.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BillyVance 34]

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that all DZ's be required to post accurate accounts of alll deaths and accidents

Those reports are pretty much well covered in Parachutist magazine each month, and there is a fatality database on dropzone.com as well.

I don't see what else we can do.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[AFFI 0]

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If one can't see the lesson here that will possibly save a few newer cocky skydivers today, then they never will.

You are totally correct!

Reviewing the poor attitude this skydiver had, his unwillingness to accept sensible advice coupled with the invincible attitude really puts in perspective how shutting oneself off to the viewpoints of others (more experienced) can be detrimental.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[rehmwa 2]

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how shutting oneself off to the viewpoints of others

However, also, we as experienced skydivers can also play a role in them "shutting down" when we are heavy handed in our 'talks'. Or when too many people come over and start poking at them.

The best I've ever seen in dealing with this was Shannon P answering a guys question on this very thing. The guy pretty well had the attitude in spades (the locals don't understand that I'm REALLY good at this.....) and Shannon was a complete professional. S didn't talk about canopy size, number of jumps, attitude, any of that stuff.... He simply laid out a list of things a person should be able to do on their current canopy (competently and comfortably)... it was a pretty extensive list of skills demonstrations.... and then asked the jumper "so, have you done all of these so far?"

The guy left with a very thoughtful expression on his face. He was receptive, because likely any other person would embarrass him in front of the others (even when they mean well, many jumpers go over and coach when they are still 'spun up' over what they just saw). Shannon did it with class and concern for the jumper - not at his expense - and everyone in the room got some good info.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Your self-policing obviously isn't working. You need only look at all the accidents and deaths in just the last year caused by low turns and canopy collisions. Perhaps it is time for the legislatures to act.

I have only been in this sport a short 5 years. But I disagree with your assessment that self policing is not working. I have actually seen some progress in how many (not all) people approach canopy flight. It is not something that happens overnight, but as more and more people progress in this sport (without killing themselves), the education improves and more and more messages of responsible canopy flight get told. But with all these advances in gear and better canopy control coaching ... we are still finding new ways to kill ourselves.

But legislation from governments is the last thing I want to see in our sport. I am incredibly frustrated with how people in society constantly judge others who are different than themselves and I live in a very money hungry, arrogant and selfish part of the world night now (Alberta Canada with it's new found power due to the Oil here and the politics of the world we live in) and the people here have an incredibly close minded ignorance about the real dangers of skydiving versus their perceived assumptions all because of a few high profile incidents that the media latched on to. The last thing I want to see is some arrogant, selfish money hungry golfing oriented lawyer tell me what I can and can not do up there in the skies.

Where I have issues with this thread is that it is mud slinging being done on the internet. There is nothing we can do about Ted (BTW ... I did not know Ted). But we as jumpers can do something about the people still alive that we see at the dropzones we jump at. If we see some newbie wannabie flying recklessly then we need to speak up. If we see some professional skydiver flying recklessly in traffic, we need to speak up. But slaming some deceased guy on the internet is not going to have any effect on the person at the DZ who does not read DZ.COM ... if this concern qualifies me as some soapbox dweeb ... well so be it. I live a pretty pathetic existence nowadays and it really doesn't matter what I say because most people are all to quick to judge me because I am not like them. We are not going to solve the sports issues on the internet. We can only start to try a solve the issues at the grass roots level ... at the dropzones.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AFFI 0]

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S didn't talk about canopy size, number of jumps, attitude, any of that stuff.... He simply laid out a list of things a person should be able to do on their current canopy (competently and comfortably)... it was a pretty extensive list of skills demonstrations.... and then asked the jumper "so, have you done all of these so far?"

Great approach - do you remember this list?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Danger 0]

Dear Teds Aunt/Uncle,

Please go read the entire thread in the canopy control section titled 120 Velo.

The OP of that thread is following in Ted's footsteps. Nothing said to him has sunk in either.

[tedsauntcindy 0]

New skydivers going for their first jumps or early training don't get those magazines. The general public needs the information as they make that first decision to jump.