Iflyme 0 #26 December 14, 2002 QuoteDon't you think if God thought it was OK ... that would require a belief in a "god" ... and as I deny the existance of any "god", I will have to exclude myself from pondering your question or drawing any conclusions ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #27 December 14, 2002 Any god that would damn somebody because of the person they love, is one god I won't believe in. As to any ideas of Darwin; the nature vs. nurture arguement seems to never end, and is quite frankly, monotonous. That said, I do tend to fall on the 'nurture' side of thing, and as such any Darwin argument is moot - ie, not even worth debating because the answer is irrelevant. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #28 December 14, 2002 Quote If one is going to argue that the bible is the standard for all societal ideals, then that has to carry through with every single one of them. And I agree with you. I think fornication is wrong too, hence I have chosen not to have sex until marriage. Just because most people think it's right doesn't make it right. The law is the law. If you don't agree then discard it, but don't twist it to try to make it say something it doesn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #29 December 14, 2002 Quote ... that would require a belief in a "god" ... and as I deny the existance of any "god", I will have to exclude myself from pondering your question or drawing any conclusions ... Hey man, I'm an atheist(or maybe a die-hard-agnostic, I've yet to decide) , but that doesn't stop me from taking part in a religious debate... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #30 December 14, 2002 QuoteLOL. What I find very amusing is that you are trapped in a paradox by using the Bible to discredit itself! You say that according to the Bible humans are 'imperfect' and then that the Bible must be wrong because of that. But, if the Bible is wrong then are humans really imperfect since you got that from the Bible to start with? So you're argument is trapped in a paradox that I find very amusing. What about assuming that God wants to communicate with us and that he can overcome whatever imperfections we have to get his message out like He wants it? There's another option for you. A novel thought in this day and age of excuses. Paradox - a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and is yet perhaps true. The presence of a paradox does not mean that the argument is invalid. Consider the paradox of light. On the one hand, it seems to act like a particle. On the other, it seems to act like a wave. Do we scrap the theory simply because it is paradoxical? Of course not. My biggest objection about fundamentalism is that it's faith seems misplaced. When you ask a fundamentalist why they are so sure that God exists, they resond, "because the bible says so." This suggests to me that they do not have faith in God; they have faith in the infallibility of the bible, which they use to prove the existence of God. With this logic, I could say that any book (or movie, or song, or insurance pamphlet) is the revealed word of God and use that to argue for the truth of whatever it might say. Perhaps "God can overcome whatever imperfections we have to get his message out like He wants it" on the back of a napkin?A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #31 December 14, 2002 QuoteQuoteMan, by God's own definition, is imperfect. LOL. What I find very amusing is that you are trapped in a paradox by using the Bible to discredit itself! You say that according to the Bible humans are 'imperfect' and then that the Bible must be wrong because of that. But, if the Bible is wrong then are humans really imperfect since you got that from the Bible to start with? So you're argument is trapped in a paradox that I find very amusing. What about assuming that God wants to communicate with us and that he can overcome whatever imperfections we have to get his message out like He wants it? There's another option for you. A novel thought in this day and age of excuses. I agree, and that paradox is overlooked (conveniently) when trying to apply the fundamentals of the spiritual principles in our personal affairs. As soon as we try to force these views on others they lose their credibility and appeal. They ultimately result in disenfranchising everyone that "would be" a good Catholic, or Hebrew, or Muslim. Look at the Catholic Church in Boston...if that's not evidence of imperfection of mankind, I don't know what is. On top of that, those actions broke all the rules. Now, each Catholic has to explore their own faith and see if they can get to the root of how they should deal with it. Those that have boxed themselved in with the doctrine are going to have to test their faith, unfortunately, I'm betting that many will not forgive. I look at it this way, politicians write books. Why does God need to? I'm simply willing to give Him more credit than that. If God wants to communicate with me, or I with Him, I do not need a middle man citing versus from a 2000 year old book.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #32 December 14, 2002 QuoteAnd I agree with you. I think fornication is wrong too, hence I have chosen not to have sex until marriage. And no one is stopping you from choosing not to shack up with another man.A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #33 December 14, 2002 QuoteAnd my point? You shouldn't try to condemn homosexuality using the Bible unless you also want to condone slavery, killing of infidels, "eye-for-an-eye"-justice etc. You are misinterpreting the Bible. For example, Jesus (who brought in the new covenant) said: You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38-39) I have never heard about infidels in the Bible, you must have it confused with the Koran sorry. Slavery is actually condemned in the Bible: "And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:16. etc. There are even instructions about manditorily releasing slaves: "And if thy brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee." Deut. 15:12 The above was a specific law for the Jews however. Us gentiles didn't get in on the act until Jesus came as prophesied. God even set his people free from slavery: "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you from there. That is why I command you to do this." (Deuteronomy 24:18) The verse that you're talking about does not condone or condemn slavery, it is talking about doing what is right even if you are treated wrong. (remember the verse about turning the other cheek?) "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart." Ephesians 6:5-6 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #34 December 14, 2002 Quote... that would require a belief in a "god" ... and as I deny the existance of any "god", I will have to exclude myself from pondering your question or drawing any conclusions ... BRAVO! Finally a noble choice that doesn't require twisting the Bible! Thank you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #35 December 14, 2002 QuotePerhaps "God can overcome whatever imperfections we have to get his message out like He wants it" on the back of a napkin? Good point. That is why God gave us good reasons for believing that the Bible is His Word. For example: The Bible claims, within its own text, to be inspired by God. That is to say, God Himself is really the author of the Book. It has even been acknowledged by atheists that the Bible is the only religious Scripture that shows a real God stepping into real history. Critics of the Bible have tried to say that the Bible is not true because of "historical errors" it contains. The truth is, much of the ancient history within the Bible has been proven to be accurate by archeology. In fact, there is an entire special branch of archeology called Biblical Archeology, that does archeological research relevant to Bible History. An enormous amount of archeological evidence has been found that supports the historical truth of the Bible. For example, in the Book of II Kings, chapter 3, there is a story about a war fought by the kings of Judah and Israel (Israel was split into two nations at the time) against the King of Moab (an ancient kingdom east of the Dead Sea). In the British Museum in London is an ancient inscribed stone tablet called the Moabite Stone. It tells the story of that war from the viewpoint of the king of Moab. And this is a very tiny fraction of what has been found. Look for yourself, and you'll see what I mean. This doesn't even factor in all the prophecies made hundreds of years before their time that turned out to be true. No one sane will deny that a man named Jesus walked the earth 2000 years ago and performed miracles (recorded by ancient historians) and was crucified and the tomb was found empty with no body. Factor in that Jesus was seen by at least 500 witnesses after his ressurection and factor in that all but one of the apostles was martyred for their faith (so they were'nt lying) and there is a pretty darn good case for Christ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #36 December 14, 2002 QuoteAnd no one is stopping you from choosing not to shack up with another man. When did I say I was going to stop anyone from doing anything? I am only saying what the Bible says. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasterfaller 0 #37 December 14, 2002 Didn't God destroy two towns with fire and brimstone because of their sexual appetites ? That kind of tells me he finds it unacceptable . What gets me is the " gay christian " that ignores that part of the bible . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #38 December 14, 2002 >You are misinterpreting the Bible. Am I? I just mentioned a couple of examples I had heard somewhere. Would you like to correctly interpret the passages quoted on this page then? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #39 December 14, 2002 So, by your logic, if my napkin says: "I am God and I wrote this message: I prophesize that if go fart on your friend's head he'll be pissed at you (Jesus, who we all agree walked the earth 2000 years ago, told me to tell you to make it stinky one)" It makes a good case for itself actually being the word of God.A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #40 December 14, 2002 QuoteDidn't God destroy two towns with fire and brimstone because of their sexual appetites ? That kind of tells me he finds it unacceptable . What gets me is the " gay christian " that ignores that part of the bible . That's funny, because your Christian colleague, Sinkster, has told us in this very thread that Christians are free to ignore the old testament, where the incident to which you refer is found.A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasterfaller 0 #41 December 14, 2002 I never said I was a christian . I will never step foot in a church again . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #42 December 14, 2002 QuoteWhen did I say I was going to stop anyone from doing anything? I am only saying what the Bible says. Fair enough. I think more people should take that attitude. Some, unfortunately, do not and feel that they are justified to murder people because their religion condemns whatever it is that they do.A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #43 December 14, 2002 QuoteI never said I was a christian . I will never step foot in a church again . Sorry, I went and made an ass out of u and me...A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #44 December 14, 2002 QuoteThis argument assumes that the only purpose of sex is reproduction. The fact that most people are willing to have sex (straight or otherwise) without wanting a child to come of it means that sex has purposes other than reproduction. If you talk to anyone that is firmly religious, at least the Christian religions, you'll find I think that sex is for reproduction. That it feels good is a benefit. QuoteAlso, consider the fact that women do not undergo heat cycles. They are perfectly capable and willing to have sex even if they are not fertile on that particular day. It is definately a fallacy to equate sex and reproduction. Actually women kind of do go through heat cycles. Studies have shown that women are hornier during their fertile periods. QuoteAlso, if your argument that engaging in a lifestyle that is not compatible with reproduction is sinful, then there are a lot of priests out there (except, of course, the ones that were molesting nuns) that are going to the big lobster pot in the ground. I don't think anyone actually argued that engaging in a lifestyle that is not compatible with reproduction is sinful. I think that the argument is that sleeping with partners of the same sex is sinful. They are different, as I'm sure you realize. Additionally, as far as I know, the Catholic church is the only Christian religion that forbids a priest to be married. (Off topic, but if you do a little research you'll see that it wasn't always that way. Think divorce, property, and a greedy Catholic church) QuoteLastly, and the point was already made by others, there are a lot of laws in the bible that we do not follow, so quoting one law in the bible that forbids homosexuality is utterly irrelevant unless one wants to argue that we should follow ALL laws in the bible. Many devoted Christians would, and do argue, that we should follow ALL laws in the bible. Finally, no, I do not consider myself to be a religious person. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #45 December 14, 2002 QuoteWould you like to correctly interpret the passages quoted on this page then? When you explain how you are right about the "eye-for-an-eye" thing even though I gave you words from Jesus Christ Himself then I will interpret the passages for you. Even if I did give you the truth you would probably brush it aside in like manner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #46 December 14, 2002 QuoteI don't think anyone actually argued that engaging in a lifestyle that is not compatible with reproduction is sinful. I think that the argument is that sleeping with partners of the same sex is sinful. Jimbo: I was responding in that post to this: QuoteDon't you think if God thought it was OK to be gay, he would have allowed some "reproduction clause" in the creation of earth and life. As in, men could have children with each other, without women. And women could produce babies without men. The quote argues that God thinks homosexual is not OK specifically because it contains no "reproduction clause."A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #47 December 14, 2002 Been fun, all, but my roommate needs to use the phone. Have a great Saturday night! A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #48 December 14, 2002 QuoteDidn't God destroy two towns with fire and brimstone because of their sexual appetites ? a common misconception. In Genesis ch 18 & 19 it isn't specified exactly what the sin of Sodom & Gomorrah was. Later Books, Isaiah & Ezekiel, characterize it as a lack of social justice or disregard for the poor. I'm looking at Genesis ch18 & 19 right now & I can't see any mention of sexual practices. What's weird is people who are outside the church characterize the Judaeo-Christian tradition as being prudish and cheifly concerned with suppression of sexual desires etc. In the Old Testament the main sin that is of the greatest concern is that of people bowing down before idols & false gods, and dabbling in the false religions of the neighboring nations. In the New Testament Jesus has almost nothing to say about sexual matters, instead He focuses on repudiating people who make a show of religious piety, but are actually cold hearted. He also talks about the importance of love & forgiveness, and for the recognition of one's total dependance on God for salvation. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cepheus 0 #49 December 14, 2002 Here's what I'm curious about: What religions, other than those spawned by the Bible, protest homosexuality?-- Skydive -- testing gravity, one jump at a time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #50 December 14, 2002 Quote Many devoted Christians would, and do argue, that we should follow ALL laws in the bible. MMmm,no. The apostle Paul clearly discusses that there are certain Old Testament laws that should be abandoned. Circumcision, for example. And kosher dietary laws. And no more animal sacrifices are necessary, since the sacrifice of Jesus has rendered them superfluous. Incidentally the book of Leviticus forbids sex between two men, but says nothing about two women having sex. So lesbians can have at it! But only if we can watch. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
