Today's irony

[kallend 2,027]

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No. But then I take responsibility for my actions and believe (perhaps
naively) that unless I actually do something wrong, that there's probably
nothing that I should have to worry about.

I think the Gestapo promoted a similar attitude among citizens of the Third Reich, as did the NKVD among citizens of the USSR.

[chachi 0]

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China is becoming a super-power with the development of a modern Navy...

China is and has been a super power for a long time. They have nuclear capability, chemical and biological weapons, a small but potent Navy, a large air force, the largest ground and tank force in the world. And it is all run by a bunch of people who don't care about the average person. Russia has been the US and worlds ally for a long time by keeping China from doing anything stupid.

~Chachi

[freeflir29 0]

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perhaps naively

Yes it is.....

[kallend 2,027]

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No, in fact we have more freedom than any other country in the world -

I suspect that citizens of the Netherlands may disagree. Maybe also Thailand. Possibly some others too.

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partly because we raise a huge stink whenever someone proposes removing or eroding those freedoms. We take them very seriously; many americans have died defending them.

No disagreement there.

[AggieDave 6]

It is hard to classify a country a super-power with out a strong Navy, since even with all the technology available, it is very needed to move armies, missiles, etc to the corners of the globe.

Yeah, they have nukes and an army, so do the French and no one is scared of them...well, maybe its that surrender complex they have.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[chachi 0]

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we, as a country never attacked JOrdan. Our weapons may have been used, but that doesn't mean that we did it. If a criminal shot and killed another person....we should let him go...because Sigsauer, or Smith and Wesson were the real criminals????? Automat Kalishnikovs are used all over the world...does that mean that the Soviet Union is attacking the rest of the world? I know history. I'm not always right...but didn't Israel get attacked first? by Egypt? by Syria? i'm not sure, but if somebody attacked us, i would hope that we would retaliate. And I am not an elitist. I state the facts. We are the world's only superpower. If somebody can please tell me another one, i would sure appreciate it.

I put this in here to answer your question of why these people hate America.

If you are still shaken by the horrifying scenes of September 11, please observe a moment of silence for the 3,000 civilian lives lost in the New York, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania attacks.

While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the streets.

Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all its power against Iraq.

Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by the Taliban troops who were supported and trained by the CIA.

Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshimaand. Nagasakiby the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.

We've just kept quiet for one hour: one minute for the Americans killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania, 59 minutes for their victims throughout the world.

If you are still in awe, let's have another hour of silence for all those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to admit.
Or for the massacre in Panamain 1989, where Americans troops attacked poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands more dead.

Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba.
Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by USA-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvadorto name a few).

Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were killed.

Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was there even any retaliation?

We hope that Americans finally begin to understand their vulnerability and the cowardly attacks and other tragedies that they have been caused around the world.

[chachi 0]

I don't believe you need a Navy to deploy on land which is the first place China would move. Asia, into Europe. Not like it will happen but just trying to point out a Navy does not determine a super power in the miliatary sense.

~Chachi

[Michele 1]

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It got swept under the rug. Complete BULLSHIT!!! BTW if they had gotten the info they were after they would have surely tried to use it against me.

I did say something to teh effect of "at least, that's how it's supposed to work". LOL! And I suspect that had whatever info been obtained and surfaced, your defense counsel would've fought it mightily. But that's all conjecture, isn't it? Glad it didn't happen to you.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[freeflir29 0]

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where Americans troops attacked poor villagers

Yeah.......They didn't look like "poor villagers" to me....They looked a lot like the Panamanian Military and "shock troops" organized by a tyranical dictator.

[AggieDave 6]

Would you rather have seen the estimated 600,000-1,000,000 US/Allied soilders killed when they tried to envade Japan, then 100,000 of the enemy's people killed to end the war?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[unlucky1 0]

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where Americans troops attacked poor villagers

Yeah.......They didn't look like "poor villagers" to me....They looked a lot like the Panamanian Military and "shock troops" organized by a tyranical dictator.

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yeah...amazing. When i was in Panama in 89' i sure don't remember civilians being blown away by the thousands. It was the military. Unless you were there...don't comment. Semper Fi, Freelir29

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[freeflir29 0]

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your defense counsel would've fought it mightily

We fought those assholes at every turn. I think I know what Britain felt like during the Revolutionary War. It seemed I was the only one that had to play by the rules while the govt could do whatever the hell they wanted. Legal or illegal. However, if I had stepped out of line or even came close they were ready to string me up in the square. Wonder why I have such a problem dealing with the govt now?

[Scoby 0]

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Would you rather have seen the estimated 600,000-1,000,000 US/Allied soilders killed when they tried to envade Japan, then 100,000 of the enemy's people killed to end the war?

Horrific as it was, I think that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were moral, because they were intended to, and did, end the war early and with far fewer deaths than otherwise. It's odd to me that people find more fault with those attacks than the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo, which were pure acts of aggression against civilian populations.

[chachi 0]

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Would you rather have seen the estimated 600,000-1,000,000 US/Allied soilders killed when they tried to envade Japan, then 100,000 of the enemy's people killed to end the war?

This was not posted to say that I disagree with X event or I agree with Y event. It was only meant to give a world perspective of the US and some of the events that lead to a large chunk of the world not particularily liking the US. I will stand up and agree with the particular attack that you used. We have all been touched by that including my own family.

~Chachi

[unlucky1 0]

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we, as a country never attacked JOrdan. Our weapons may have been used, but that doesn't mean that we did it. If a criminal shot and killed another person....we should let him go...because Sigsauer, or Smith and Wesson were the real criminals????? Automat Kalishnikovs are used all over the world...does that mean that the Soviet Union is attacking the rest of the world? I know history. I'm not always right...but didn't Israel get attacked first? by Egypt? by Syria? i'm not sure, but if somebody attacked us, i would hope that we would retaliate. And I am not an elitist. I state the facts. We are the world's only superpower. If somebody can please tell me another one, i would sure appreciate it.

I put this in here to answer your question of why these people hate America.

If you are still shaken by the horrifying scenes of September 11, please observe a moment of silence for the 3,000 civilian lives lost in the New York, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania attacks.

While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the streets.

Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all its power against Iraq.

Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by the Taliban troops who were supported and trained by the CIA.

Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshimaand. Nagasakiby the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.

We've just kept quiet for one hour: one minute for the Americans killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania, 59 minutes for their victims throughout the world.

If you are still in awe, let's have another hour of silence for all those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to admit.
Or for the massacre in Panamain 1989, where Americans troops attacked poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands more dead.

Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba.
Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by USA-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvadorto name a few).

Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were killed.

Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was there even any retaliation?

We hope that Americans finally begin to understand their vulnerability and the cowardly attacks and other tragedies that they have been caused around the world.

I believe that Baghdad asked for it when they killed thousands of Kuwaiti citizens. An eye for an eye....

[blueshrew 0]

I think billvon and chachi have already given excellent replies to your post. I am not trying to offend you, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, however uninformed it may be.

Your claim of jealousy is just rediculous.
As many good things as the US was involved in, they have f***ed up at least as much (only country to ever use an A-bomb, to mention the least). And this is what is making the US increasingly unpopular even in Europe. Like the German or French government, the Saudi Arabian govt is an ally to the US govt. I have not heard one person praise the US in a loooong time now, so the people's opinion does differ a lot from the govts'.
As for freedom in the US, I think European citizens have way more freedom than they can ever wish for, and are not really bound by social barriers.
Next, you have obviously never been to Saudi Arabia, and only see and believe the parazzi shit. Altough women don't have many rights, all the ones I've seen like the way they live, and have little to complain about. (What I'd give, to not have to work )
Now getting to Iraq, and now that the UN inspectors are allowed in, the US still want to attack Iraq, and this time it's for access to Iraqi oil, as it is in the news anyway.
When Iraq attacked Kuwait for the same reason, the US stepped in, which was a good thing, since Iraq was deffinitely at fault then. But now the US wants to do the same thing???
I am terrified of a third ww right now. What if Saddam is just waiting to be provoked? My family is divided between Egypt, Germany and France, and basically we're all probably dead meat if the guy gets angry. The chances of a ww reaching the US is pretty slim, though, as they were in ww2. It is a huge difference if a country sends its troops to fight, or if bombs are falling all around you. I just hope that if I live to see the next US election, a wiser president gets voted.

[Michele 1]

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I put this in here to answer your question of why these people hate America.

But why do YOU hate America?

And while we're counting minutes of silence, let's not forget the millions for the Jews, Roms and Gyspies the Nazis killed. Our own servicemen at Pearl Harbor. The English during the bombing there.

Or hey, what about the Israelis that have been murdered over the years. Can't forget about them.

Nor the Chinese dissidents.

And please don't forget the Poles, Russians, English, Canadians, Americans, Germans, Dutch, Chinese, French, and so forth that were also killed in WWII.

Oh, and while we're at it, why don't we include the thought about all the Kuwaiti's who were killed during the invasion by Saddam?

Don't forget all the folks under Stalin, Castro, Papa Doc, Edi Amin, Pol Pot, Milosevic and their ilk.

Let's take it all the way back to Cain and Abel.

Your argument is false.
Again, I ask: why do YOU hate America?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 2,998]

>And about Jordan, we have never attacked or dropped any bombs
>on Jordan because they are our biggest Allies in the MiddleEast . .

Except during the Arab/Israeli war in 1967. And of course Hussein was once an ally, and we supported the Taliban during their rise to power. Being an ally of the US doesn't mean we won't bomb you in a few years. In fact, being a US ally often seems to _increase_ the odds the US will bomb you in a few years.

>Ok...what is your answer to 9/11.

Better airport security. Stronger immigration laws. Less reliance on foreign oil. Stop giving arms and money to radical terrorist groups like Al Quaeda/the Mujahideen. Stop supporting corrupt/terror supporting governments. Increase efforts at non-proliferation treaties.

>If Saddam arms himself with chemical weapons, bio, or Nucs and
> uses them on another country (possibly our own), are we then going
> to turn on our gov't and say " why didn't you do something to stop
> it? "

He DID use chemical weapons against the Kurds! We were supporting him at the time, because he was our 'ally' against Iraq. We should stop doing that in the future. We should stop supporting evil and corrupt governments even if they are fighting someone more evil and corrupt in our eyes.

I agree, if the arms inspectors find evidence that he is developing WMD, and he is unwilling to stop, then we have to back up our threat and go in (hopefully as part of a coalition force) and at the very least prevent him from ever being able to manufacture WMD again.

>And people think we should just leave this whacko alone???

Nope, and fortunately we are not. If inspections fail and we have to take action we will have the UN behind us, which is how it should be.

[Scoby 0]

For what it's worth, the official figure for Panamanian deaths in the conflict is 373. The Panamanian military lost 68. The balance of the dead, obviously, was civilian.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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If you are still in awe, let's have another hour of silence for all those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to admit.

I don't think anyone disputes this in and of itself. But this is just one example of the simplicity of many anti-American tirades. It seems to me that after the USA left, the Vietnamese wound up killing each other a lot faster than we ever did...

Yeah its true that America's hands are pretty dirty. Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to emigrate to a smaller, less significant country...then I could sit back & watch America wade into the shit, (and, true, often make disastrous mistakes in the process) while I just shake my head in disapproval with my own conscience clean.

Speed Racer
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[chachi 0]

[freeflir29 0]

users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat7.htm



This page puts it slightly higher but the majority is still attributed to civilian casualties. (It's number 99 on the list) Of course.....I wonder how many of these "civilians" actually were and not "Battalion Dignatistas."

[chachi 0]

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I put this in here to answer your question of why these people hate America.

But why do YOU hate America?

And while we're counting minutes of silence, let's not forget the millions for the Jews, Roms and Gyspies the Nazis killed. Our own servicemen at Pearl Harbor. The English during the bombing there.

Or hey, what about the Israelis that have been murdered over the years. Can't forget about them.

Nor the Chinese dissidents.

And please don't forget the Poles, Russians, English, Canadians, Americans, Germans, Dutch, Chinese, French, and so forth that were also killed in WWII.

Oh, and while we're at it, why don't we include the thought about all the Kuwaiti's who were killed during the invasion by Saddam?

Don't forget all the folks under Stalin, Castro, Papa Doc, Edi Amin, Pol Pot, Milosevic and their ilk.

Let's take it all the way back to Cain and Abel.

Your argument is false.
Again, I ask: why do YOU hate America?

Ciels-
Michele

Please don't read one post in a long list and create an argument around it. If you would have read the rest of them you would ahve read this.

I happen to have a huge respect for the American people. A very diversified and world knowledge leading people. But the elitist atitude of the above post bothered me. I hope I did not offend anyone. If I did PM me and I will edit to clarify anything.

I will clarify though, I have nothing but respect for American people. I think you are the number one most patriotic people in the world. In fact I wish we as Canadians were as patriotic. Although that is beginning to change. I was in the Navy for 5 years, in that time I fought along side US troops and respect every single serviceman out there. I also said aboove that I believe the US to be the biggest givers in the world regarding the poor, the downdrodden, enviromental issues and a long list. I would love for you to show me where I wrote I hate the US. I personally just don't agree with most of your foreign policy.

~Chachi

[freeflir29 0]

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I personally just don't agree with most of your foreign policy.

Haaaa.......find ANYONE that does....

[quade 4]

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I think the Gestapo promoted a similar attitude among citizens of the Third Reich . . .

Ever been to the Holocaust museum in D.C.?

It's amazing that it all started with 3x5 cards and doing a bit of research into eye and hair color.

Yet, I'd like to believe that we are a bit beyond that at this point.

Again, I did say that I was perhaps a bit naive.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver