EOCS 0 #26 February 1, 2013 QuoteQuote Or, check every jump for the next four years? Very good example of worst communication scenario here. Airtec, you really screwed up this one! There were 3 AAD manufacturers until recently, one dropped out. Two to go. I have read probably everything available since the bulletin yesterday but I still cannot stop to shake my head. Either you sold a not so reliable product for years and nobody knew or you did the worst communication and risk mitigation job I can only imagine... This was what the trust in your brand was built upon and we all invested money into it. It will never be like that from now on, no matter what you do![email] I personally disagree here. If airtec does what they should and effectively recalls the aads to be fixed then im ok with that. and it will justify one of fhe main reasons i bought it.what i have a problem with is being stuck with a known defective product that should be guarenteed aginst just such defects. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gzimmermann 0 #27 February 1, 2013 QuoteQuoteQuote Or, check every jump for the next four years? Very good example of worst communication scenario here. Airtec, you really screwed up this one! There were 3 AAD manufacturers until recently, one dropped out. Two to go. I have read probably everything available since the bulletin yesterday but I still cannot stop to shake my head. Either you sold a not so reliable product for years and nobody knew or you did the worst communication and risk mitigation job I can only imagine... This was what the trust in your brand was built upon and we all invested money into it. It will never be like that from now on, no matter what you do![email] I personally disagree here. If airtec does what they should and effectively recalls the aads to be fixed then im ok with that. and it will justify one of fhe main reasons i bought it.what i have a problem with is being stuck with a known defective product that should be guarenteed aginst just such defects. ..and this is a lot of my point too: I used to jump an Aerodyne Icon rig with Skyhook. One day two years ago I got a call from my rigger: Service bulletin, send it in or you are grounded. Which I did, mod done, paperwork done and nobody really cared at the DZs I jumped right afterwards. I sold it and hope that the new owner did not have any problems afterwards. Since AADs are mandatory at many DZs I wonder how they would check the "reset after every jump" of thousands of Cypres2 manufactured after 09 now. Not that I have considered my AAD as last resort at anytime, which you never should. My Neptune also shows "under canopy since 12500ft" usually when I do wingsuit jumps. The AAD is a reserve device we should not rely on, unlike the reserve parachute and EPs. However... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #28 February 1, 2013 Airtech needs to man up and recall these units. Test them, fix the problem, and return them to service. Anything less is not acceptable.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #29 February 2, 2013 QuoteI'd like to know about this "activation on the mat" Does anyone have any info on that? Why did the unit fire? Could it have fired later on as well? What about the carpets used in various aircraft? Could I contribute to this problem when sliding over the carpet towards the door on a day with very dry air? I'll tell what I heard, but it is at least 3rd hand, so I don't guarantee anything about the information. A low pass at the boogie on one of the cloudy days (which may mean extra static electricity in the air). Normal deployment, everything about the jump and landing were fine (no swooping, docile canopy, Sabre II 190 loaded ~1:1 I believe). Walked back in, placed the rig on the packing mat. At some point between placing it on the mat and it being packed the pilot chute launched. It was not immediately clear at what point the Cypres fired, as nobody heard the pop, apparently. This was a 04/2012 unit, I believe. That's all I know. Except I'll reiterate what I said above, which is that according to the Cypres PIA document the Cypres was tested to be shielded from ESD up to 25KV (which is considerably above what you could get environmentally). Apparently when they changed the component they did not redo all the engineering tests or didn't catch it. It is not knowable at this point what the amount of ESD was required to fire the unit, so it would be pure speculation on whether it would be able to be fired from the carpet in airplane, etc."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dpreguy 14 #30 February 2, 2013 OK all. I'm not getting the test part. press the usual button and if it flashes red it is OK? That much is simple, but dang it, wouldn't it always flash the first time, and do so three times to turn it on? Or is the Service Bulletin direction only to apply after it has has been turned on and THEN hit the button once and see the flash before each jump? I doesn't actually say that, but I guess that's what they mean? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dpreguy 14 #31 February 2, 2013 OK I'll walk the walk of shame here. Reread it and it does say ("after it is turned on") I guess I should have had it in front of me and read it more carefully. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,190 #32 February 2, 2013 It will be interesting to see the reaction to this in the "Nanny" states with National organizations that like to ground things in a hurry. EU countries and Australia come to mind. Some of them were pretty quick to jump on the Argus. I'm glad the CSPA T&S committee has not been able to ram through a mandatory AAD rule yet.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hcsvader 1 #33 February 2, 2013 Oh no, now people will have to check thier gear before every jump... Like your meant to Have you seen my pants? it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream >:) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 135 #34 February 2, 2013 QuoteAction to be taken: Prior to each jump, during your pre-boarding equipment check (after the CYPRES has been switched on), perform the following system test: {snip} ... QuoteIf the unit is not in working condition, failure to perform this procedure prior to each jump will result in an increased risk to the user. What does this mean, exactly? It seems to say that if the unit is not working, the risk will be lower *IF* you do the procedure, compared to if you don't do the procedure. Why is that? Does the procedure make the defective unit less likely to misfire (like, it helps it recover temporarily; kind of a "reboot")? Or do they mean it will be safer because you will now know the unit is no longer functional, and so you either won't jump, or you will turn it off before you jump? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 470 #35 February 2, 2013 QuoteQuoteso now for the next 4 years i need to make sure my cypres is functioning properly. i still check it before every jump but come on, really? i paid the extra bucks for this unit because they claim to be extremely reliable... they should fix this issue on their own dime. Agreed, I paid the extra for a cypres thinking problems like this could be avoided. I check my shit every jump anyway, so its not that bad. What concerns me are other "changes" we may not be aware of and the problems they might cause. I know if I owned a company like this I would feel morally obligated to fix this for FREE, sand in a timely manner. It can never be avoided, just minimised. It is why I get so pissed off on the Vigil hate threads. ALL AAD's can fail, in reality Cypres is probably the most reliable, but it will NEVER be 100%.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 7 #36 February 2, 2013 QuoteAll units that are shipping from Airtec now (and I understand none have shipped for several weeks) should be addressed so new units are clear of the issue. I would suggest waiting a few days to see if Airtec and/or SSK can expand on some of the questions that have been posed to them to get additional clarification on this. Please contact Airtec or SSK directly to get information on the unit that you are jumping to see what the best options are. It will be interesting to see what the big gear stores do with the stock they have on the shelves. Will they send it all back and wait for new product assuming Cypres allows that or just sell it until it's gone. Anyone working for those stores please chime in. .Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. .Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 470 #37 February 2, 2013 Quote I'm guessing that due to the nature of the fault, if the Cypres fails, it'll do so on the carpet when exposed to static but is unlikely to in the airplane after your final check. It'll lock up or fire on the carpet, not after. So the failure won't be completely random in time and location. Not a big consolation but it is something. I don't know. Being cramped in a tight aircraft with people rubbing nylon against you is quite a good environment for ESD.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #38 February 2, 2013 I agree but you can send it at No Charge to SSK / Airtec & fix it. We have a DZ to take care on that & so other DZ's around the world. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #39 February 2, 2013 I agree, each CYPRES2 AAD of any mode & from any mfg. date must be checked as well. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #40 February 2, 2013 The test provided by Airtec should insure that any Cypres2 with an error will be catch on the gorund before jumping it - it says "before each jump" = could be good on 1st jump & fail on the 2nd jump. There is not a formula for accurate data when or where it could happaned - it is rare but could happan at any time with any Cypres2 unit. IMO, ALL CYPRES2 AAD'S OF ANY MODE & DATE OF MFG. MUST BE TESTED THE SAME BEFORE EACH JUMP. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aeroflyer 0 #41 February 2, 2013 So what do you do if you test your cypress by the button push and it doesn't blink? Reset it? Is it safe? Take it out and jump without? I hate to think that I've been jumping three years with a possibly faulty Cypress. Especially where I'm jumping now it's dry with tons of static. C'mon Airtec, stand up and volunteer to fix our units. If this problem is commonplace I see it being real bad for students renting gear.. they might not all know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iobject 0 #42 February 2, 2013 QuoteSo what do you do if you test your cypress by the button push and it doesn't blink? Reset it? Is it safe? Take it out and jump without? If it's not blinking it means that it's not responding. Then it can't be turned off, can it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coticj 0 #43 February 2, 2013 What about the units that were manufactured before 09, but were sent back for service say last year? Is it now also affected or?http://www.prostipad.si Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #44 February 2, 2013 Quote I agree but you can send it at No Charge to SSK / Airtec & fix it. They do not advertise that in their bulletin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djar 0 #45 February 2, 2013 Quote If it's not blinking it means that it's not responding. Then it can't be turned off, can it? This would suggest that a failed unit will be detected by the user the next time he tries to turn it on, as it will still be on and not reacting when given the "startup sequence". If this is the case, every occurrence should be known by airtec, and they could provide the exact number off how many units are effected, or am i wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #46 February 2, 2013 I would take it out & send to Airtec. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iobject 0 #47 February 2, 2013 QuoteQuote If it's not blinking it means that it's not responding. Then it can't be turned off, can it? This would suggest that a failed unit will be detected by the user the next time he tries to turn it on, as it will still be on and not reacting when given the "startup sequence". If this is the case, every occurrence should be known by airtec, and they could provide the exact number off how many units are effected, or am i wrong? Except if the unit shuts down after 14 hours and appears to be OK next morning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #48 February 2, 2013 QuoteAll units that are shipping from Airtec now (and I understand none have shipped for several weeks) should be addressed so new units are clear of the issue. I would suggest waiting a few days to see if Airtec and/or SSK can expand on some of the questions that have been posed to them to get additional clarification on this. Please contact Airtec or SSK directly to get information on the unit that you are jumping to see what the best options are. I can appreciate anyone’s desire to give a wonderful manufacturer a little lee way to see how and in what fashion they will ultimately approach/handle this issue. The obvious time-bomb is however the fact that the unit, when you look at it, it appears ok! I believe the quote was "[]...it will have a... 0 on the display...[]." In other words it will appear NORMAL, but in reality it doesn’t work. Waiting for the manufacturer to respond under these circumstances in quite simply unacceptable! While I can understand some comments about checking your AAD every jump, and comments like "a little [] inconvenience..." may at first sound plausible they are nevertheless unacceptable. It is unfortunate that this has happened to this company because it sounds like it was beyond their control. Their response to their customers however is not beyond their control and their response should be an immediate recall of all defective units. Any response short of recalling defective equipment is a slap in every one of their customers faces! In a very real sense they have just indicated what their position is by electing to NOT service all existing units to the best of their abilities! Do I give SSK any leeway for informing the general public about this issue in the first place? No not really, because responsibility can be a deal breaker and this issue is their responsibility, not ours! You have seen their response. My response is to remove the unit from any rig I have control over until they fix their problem at their cost! CBut what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lineset 0 #49 February 2, 2013 If everyone handed in their AAD,s for a check what do you think the turn around time would be would be?If you live in a country where you have to have a AAD i bet you could right off 2013 season. I will be doing the check before every jump. What else can we do apart from staying on the ground Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 41 #50 February 2, 2013 Quote If everyone handed in their AAD,s for a check what do you think the turn around time would be would be?. And I'll bet the sport market is probably tiny compared to the military market. If so, I suggest that they would recall military units first. Gotta keep those gov't customers happy "Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
