rolinj 0 #1 June 19, 2007 Hi everybody i'll just put up a quick note about an incident which could have had major consequences but which miraculously came out ok. I'll make it as simple as i can but this post couldn't acount for the sheer fear that this incident brought to me. This note is written only on an informative purpose as I have had misinterpreted/deformed feedback from the incident, even from close friends. NB: for french speakers I posted the same report on www.wuza.net "la routine tue" Second load of the day, plane goes up i'm ready to go on a three way, on the way up my sound altimeter beeps at a wrong and low altitude, I still have my hand altimeter it should be ok. As I exit the plane I feel my harness is loose, I look down and there's my chest strap flapping loose! I spend the jump battling to put it back into place and when I finally manage to do so I put my left hand on the reserve handle. At that precise moment my audio beeps for the first time, in the moment I forgot it was bust and therefore reach for my main canopy. Canopy opens nicely I then look at the ground and back to the dropzone, I pull the toggles to inflate the end cells and make a turn to get back to the DZ as I release the toggle my canopy carries on its course and starts flying vertical in front of me. What I din't realise was that I was far too low and that my AAD had fired, the reserve was out and inflated on the turning motion leading to a downplane configuration. I put my hand on my cutaway handle, look at the ground and think to myself: this is too low you'll never get the reserve out (I didn't realise it was actually out until I found myself wrapped in it on the ground!) so my hands reach for the main rear risers and pull as hard as I can foolishly thinking that it would get back to normal. I impacted on soft and muddy grass a few meters away from the tarmac. Luckily it turned out that no bones were broken and I ended up with severe pain in my back. Lessons that I learned that day: A) even though one of the jumpers I was with confirmed that he saw my chest strap closed before boarding, the fact that it was loose on exit only means that I dind't do it up properly. Therefore I came to the conclusion that you are the only one in charge of your own safety. NB: If your chest strap is loose keep in mind that there is a procedure for it which consists of holding the right strap of your harness with your left hand, release the HD, bring your right arm to your left strap and hold on tightly. This is of course for you to confirm with your own instructors! B) Don't rely solely on your audio altimeter, always double check with you hand altimeter C) Always be careful of your canopy openings and the way you behave right after deployment, make sure that there is only one canopy out (especially after a low stunt like this one). All of these are actually textbook lessons and the reason I made those was my excess self-confidence due to a long serie of uneventful jumps prior to this one. I can only conclude that this incident was the result of gradual neglecting of safety by my own person and that there is nobody else to blame but I. Fly safe and blue skies J. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #2 June 19, 2007 Quote B) Don't rely solely on your audio altimeter, always double check with you hand altimeter rely on your eyes, your visual alti can be broken too. thanks for posting this and glad you're here to write it by yourself scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rolinj 0 #3 June 19, 2007 Forgot to mention that we had a cloud ceiling around 1500ft on that jump and that when I made my decision to pull I had no gound visual Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inyournavl 0 #4 June 19, 2007 NB: If your chest strap is loose keep in mind that there is a procedure for it which consists of holding the right strap of your harness with your left hand, release the HD, bring your right arm to your left strap and hold on tightly. This is of course for you to confirm with your own instructors***Quote Can you explain this in more detail? I can't think of what a HD is for starters.It doesn't have to make sense, It's just the way things are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 140 #5 June 19, 2007 QuoteI can't think of what a HD is for starters.HD would be a hand deployed pilot chute... French speaking people using abbreviations of english language...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites inyournavl 0 #6 June 19, 2007 Thanks, that makes sense now, must have been a brain fart, too early in the morning, need more coffee It doesn't have to make sense, It's just the way things are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #7 June 19, 2007 Question: Did you misroute your chest strap - or not attach it at all? Ideas: FYI, when I learned to paraglide - my instructor had a rule. Whenever you put on the rig - no matter if you think you are going to fly or not - you have to put on the straps, all of them. The reason: Paragliders wait on a mountain for a perfect launch, and once the winds turn favorable, guys have suddenly thought "quick, launch" and launched without being fully connected. I took this lesson to skydiving. If I put on my rig at the DZ, I always finish the job, right then and there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #8 June 19, 2007 How many jumps do you have? How long have you been jumping?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rolinj 0 #9 June 19, 2007 The chest strap was not totally loose, but it wasn't attached correctly as it tricked one of my (very experienced) co-jumpers into thinking it was actually attached. Thanks for the paragliding advice I've been in the sport since 2003 but only made two AFF jumps that year as I broke my shoulder on opening during AFF-2 (due to a prior ski injury). I had to get an operation and waited until october 2005 to finish my AFF. I have a total of 150 jumps mostly done 2006/2007 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #10 June 19, 2007 QuoteThe chest strap was not totally loose, but it wasn't attached correctly as it tricked one of my (very experienced) co-jumpers into thinking it was actually attached. A chest strap is either properly routed, or it is not, there is no middle ground, it is black and white. There has been an abundance of posts concerning chest strap routing; a search provided nearly 5,000 posts so it seems that this is a common safety issue. Hopefully you appreciate how close of a call you had and could have easily been killed. I am so glad that you survived and learned from it… I am not certain that attempting to route your chest strap in freefall is not the best plan of action for this, obviously avoiding the situation all together is best. Right after you route your chest strap, run your thumb and finger along the buckle. If you actually touch it will provide the closest attention to detail (tugging on it will not necessarily reveal a problem) - make certain that it is in fact routed properly as a misrouted chest strap can be a seriously deadly situation.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildcard451 0 #11 June 19, 2007 QuoteForgot to mention that we had a cloud ceiling around 1500ft on that jump and that when I made my decision to pull I had no gound visual Am I the only one here that thinks that this may have been your most stupid decsion of the chain? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #12 June 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteForgot to mention that we had a cloud ceiling around 1500ft on that jump and that when I made my decision to pull I had no gound visual Am I the only one here that thinks that this may have been your most stupid decsion of the chain? Jumping with a misrouted chest strap was #1, but you are correct, not too bright...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 235 #13 June 19, 2007 To echo another poster, there was no reason for you to wrestle with your chest strap all the way down to AAD altitude. It sounds like if you didn't hear your broken audible that your reserve would have opened without you being prepared. Think about that for a while."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,063 #14 June 19, 2007 If this happens in the future, I recommend prioritizing pulling over fixing your chest strap. If you pull normally, you have a 99% chance of staying in the harness - and if you cross your arms after you pull, the odds go up to near 100%. If you don't pull before impact because you are trying to fix your chest strap, your odds are a lot lower. I once jumped without threading my chest strap correctly, about 15 years ago. The only thing I noticed was a "tink tink" sound after I opened; it was the friction adapter knocking back and forth since there was no webbing there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #15 June 19, 2007 I commend rollinj for admitting publicly that a mistake was made, someone may read this thread and have their life saved as a result from what they may learn by reading this information. That is one of the positives of a public forum like this, thanks J…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piratemike 0 #16 June 19, 2007 I agree, it's a great thing that rollinj explained what went on, and was able to admit mistake. Also it's good that he's still alive. This whole jump sounds like one of those situations where several things went wrong, fortunately, with a decent conclusion. Michael- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,399 #17 June 20, 2007 QuoteForgot to mention that we had a cloud ceiling around 1500ft on that jump and that when I made my decision to pull I had no gound visual QuoteAm I the only one here that thinks that this may have been your most stupid decsion of the chain? A lot of us use the cloud base and tops against our altimeters on the way up as a visual frame of reference during freefall. I _think_ what you're trying to communicate is humming thru the 1500" cloud deck and not immediately going silver?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #18 June 20, 2007 A lot of us use the cloud base and tops against our altimeters on the way up as a visual frame of reference during freefall. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes! I often use clouds as a crude altimeter, to back up my instruments. For example, while for my last wingsuit jump, I noticed one thin layer of clouds at 4,000 feet and made a mental note to toss my pilot chute just before reaching that layer. I also noticed a second wispy layer of clouds at 7,000 feet. On the way down, I steered towards a hole in the first layer (7,000 feet), but reluctantly tossed my pilot chute just before hitting the second layer. Oh! And I had a powerful vision - through wispy clouds - of the ground starting to rush up. Ground rush at 4,000 feet??? Call me a coward ... or call me an old tandem instructor - who is used to saddling-out by 4,000 feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,399 #19 June 20, 2007 I'll call you an old tandem instructor... Interesting that we have to mentality chant on the ride up, "Don't throw the drogue, don't throw the drogue" on a regular skydive [smiley face - no workie]Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmytavino 16 #20 June 20, 2007 hmmmmm. what was your exit altitude???? what were the other two jumpers doing??? while you were playing with your cheststrap in freefall??? Clouds at 1,500 feet????? and you are In them..??? man,, as others have stated any cloud layers, anywhere NEAR the Dz should be noted during the climb to altitude.. a mental note of where the tops and bottoms are, should be made.. WITH the understanding that they CAN change between the climb and the exit.. A good reason Not to freefall in them..Now then you say,,, you didn't feel the reserve fire???.. hmmm must have been preoccupied i suppose.... There's a concept called 'expanding awareness'... paraphrased it means, knowing what is happening.. throughout a skydive, tuning into waaay more than some tunnel vision view of only the jumpers right in front of you... Combining aeiral awareness with spatial awareness, with visual cues, with your internal 'clock', and always with safety in mind... Did you not see the other 2 jumpers deploy??? or did they also get down into AAD territory?? are you using a student AAD or an Expert?? (different firing settings)... good deal that you are ok....sort of shows how much we can get away with..... thanks for sharing... jimmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rolinj 0 #21 June 20, 2007 what was your exit altitude???? 13500 ft what were the other two jumpers doing??? while you were playing with your cheststrap in freefall??? They were sitfalling , saw me playing with my chest strap and carried on their way down. Clouds at 1,500 feet????? and you are In them..??? just above them when I was deciding between the reserve and the main Now then you say,,, you didn't feel the reserve fire???.. hmmm must have been preoccupied i suppose.... Pretty much yes Did you not see the other 2 jumpers deploy??? no they tracked away and deployed, I personally had all my attention focused on making loose ends meet are you using a student AAD or an Expert?? (different firing settings)... -Lowest firing settings, expert good deal that you are ok....sort of shows how much we can get away with..... -Thanks but I don't think i'll have this much luck twice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,063 #22 June 20, 2007 >you didn't feel the reserve fire? I will note here that during most cypres firings after the main canopy opens the jumper does not feel it, and does not know what happened until the reserve begins to bump around the main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #23 June 20, 2007 Yeah I had one of those at 50 jumps FXC fired after pulling at 2500ft. I had no clue. "Why is my canopy steering so sluggish all of a sudden?" Looking up, and UP and - oh. %^&*. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyinchicken 0 #24 June 21, 2007 J brave guy for admitting to a mistake in public. cheers to you. I once jumped without completely tightening my leg straps. Scared the shit out of me. You won't see that happen again. same will go for you. Sounds like you still have a lil left in the luck bucket. "Diligent observation leads to pure abstraction". Lari Pittman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 5w0rdsharky 0 #25 June 22, 2007 I had something simular when I was on my AFF course. I routed the chest strap through the bottom part of the gater but then routed it over the top gater and not through it!!! So you couldnt see the buckle/gater at all... Totally obvious to look at but I managed to trick 3 eperienced skydivers who were stood there looking at it. If it wasnt for my AFF instructor noticing it I would have jumped it!! Things happen for the best I feel and this is a good example. I'll never ever do that again and i'll also double check everyone elses. Ive heard stories of people tracking out of there rig becuase of this. scary.. Take care people. SharkyAnyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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piisfish 140 #5 June 19, 2007 QuoteI can't think of what a HD is for starters.HD would be a hand deployed pilot chute... French speaking people using abbreviations of english language...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inyournavl 0 #6 June 19, 2007 Thanks, that makes sense now, must have been a brain fart, too early in the morning, need more coffee It doesn't have to make sense, It's just the way things are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #7 June 19, 2007 Question: Did you misroute your chest strap - or not attach it at all? Ideas: FYI, when I learned to paraglide - my instructor had a rule. Whenever you put on the rig - no matter if you think you are going to fly or not - you have to put on the straps, all of them. The reason: Paragliders wait on a mountain for a perfect launch, and once the winds turn favorable, guys have suddenly thought "quick, launch" and launched without being fully connected. I took this lesson to skydiving. If I put on my rig at the DZ, I always finish the job, right then and there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #8 June 19, 2007 How many jumps do you have? How long have you been jumping?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rolinj 0 #9 June 19, 2007 The chest strap was not totally loose, but it wasn't attached correctly as it tricked one of my (very experienced) co-jumpers into thinking it was actually attached. Thanks for the paragliding advice I've been in the sport since 2003 but only made two AFF jumps that year as I broke my shoulder on opening during AFF-2 (due to a prior ski injury). I had to get an operation and waited until october 2005 to finish my AFF. I have a total of 150 jumps mostly done 2006/2007 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #10 June 19, 2007 QuoteThe chest strap was not totally loose, but it wasn't attached correctly as it tricked one of my (very experienced) co-jumpers into thinking it was actually attached. A chest strap is either properly routed, or it is not, there is no middle ground, it is black and white. There has been an abundance of posts concerning chest strap routing; a search provided nearly 5,000 posts so it seems that this is a common safety issue. Hopefully you appreciate how close of a call you had and could have easily been killed. I am so glad that you survived and learned from it… I am not certain that attempting to route your chest strap in freefall is not the best plan of action for this, obviously avoiding the situation all together is best. Right after you route your chest strap, run your thumb and finger along the buckle. If you actually touch it will provide the closest attention to detail (tugging on it will not necessarily reveal a problem) - make certain that it is in fact routed properly as a misrouted chest strap can be a seriously deadly situation.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #11 June 19, 2007 QuoteForgot to mention that we had a cloud ceiling around 1500ft on that jump and that when I made my decision to pull I had no gound visual Am I the only one here that thinks that this may have been your most stupid decsion of the chain? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #12 June 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteForgot to mention that we had a cloud ceiling around 1500ft on that jump and that when I made my decision to pull I had no gound visual Am I the only one here that thinks that this may have been your most stupid decsion of the chain? Jumping with a misrouted chest strap was #1, but you are correct, not too bright...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #13 June 19, 2007 To echo another poster, there was no reason for you to wrestle with your chest strap all the way down to AAD altitude. It sounds like if you didn't hear your broken audible that your reserve would have opened without you being prepared. Think about that for a while."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,063 #14 June 19, 2007 If this happens in the future, I recommend prioritizing pulling over fixing your chest strap. If you pull normally, you have a 99% chance of staying in the harness - and if you cross your arms after you pull, the odds go up to near 100%. If you don't pull before impact because you are trying to fix your chest strap, your odds are a lot lower. I once jumped without threading my chest strap correctly, about 15 years ago. The only thing I noticed was a "tink tink" sound after I opened; it was the friction adapter knocking back and forth since there was no webbing there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #15 June 19, 2007 I commend rollinj for admitting publicly that a mistake was made, someone may read this thread and have their life saved as a result from what they may learn by reading this information. That is one of the positives of a public forum like this, thanks J…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piratemike 0 #16 June 19, 2007 I agree, it's a great thing that rollinj explained what went on, and was able to admit mistake. Also it's good that he's still alive. This whole jump sounds like one of those situations where several things went wrong, fortunately, with a decent conclusion. Michael- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,399 #17 June 20, 2007 QuoteForgot to mention that we had a cloud ceiling around 1500ft on that jump and that when I made my decision to pull I had no gound visual QuoteAm I the only one here that thinks that this may have been your most stupid decsion of the chain? A lot of us use the cloud base and tops against our altimeters on the way up as a visual frame of reference during freefall. I _think_ what you're trying to communicate is humming thru the 1500" cloud deck and not immediately going silver?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #18 June 20, 2007 A lot of us use the cloud base and tops against our altimeters on the way up as a visual frame of reference during freefall. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes! I often use clouds as a crude altimeter, to back up my instruments. For example, while for my last wingsuit jump, I noticed one thin layer of clouds at 4,000 feet and made a mental note to toss my pilot chute just before reaching that layer. I also noticed a second wispy layer of clouds at 7,000 feet. On the way down, I steered towards a hole in the first layer (7,000 feet), but reluctantly tossed my pilot chute just before hitting the second layer. Oh! And I had a powerful vision - through wispy clouds - of the ground starting to rush up. Ground rush at 4,000 feet??? Call me a coward ... or call me an old tandem instructor - who is used to saddling-out by 4,000 feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,399 #19 June 20, 2007 I'll call you an old tandem instructor... Interesting that we have to mentality chant on the ride up, "Don't throw the drogue, don't throw the drogue" on a regular skydive [smiley face - no workie]Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #20 June 20, 2007 hmmmmm. what was your exit altitude???? what were the other two jumpers doing??? while you were playing with your cheststrap in freefall??? Clouds at 1,500 feet????? and you are In them..??? man,, as others have stated any cloud layers, anywhere NEAR the Dz should be noted during the climb to altitude.. a mental note of where the tops and bottoms are, should be made.. WITH the understanding that they CAN change between the climb and the exit.. A good reason Not to freefall in them..Now then you say,,, you didn't feel the reserve fire???.. hmmm must have been preoccupied i suppose.... There's a concept called 'expanding awareness'... paraphrased it means, knowing what is happening.. throughout a skydive, tuning into waaay more than some tunnel vision view of only the jumpers right in front of you... Combining aeiral awareness with spatial awareness, with visual cues, with your internal 'clock', and always with safety in mind... Did you not see the other 2 jumpers deploy??? or did they also get down into AAD territory?? are you using a student AAD or an Expert?? (different firing settings)... good deal that you are ok....sort of shows how much we can get away with..... thanks for sharing... jimmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rolinj 0 #21 June 20, 2007 what was your exit altitude???? 13500 ft what were the other two jumpers doing??? while you were playing with your cheststrap in freefall??? They were sitfalling , saw me playing with my chest strap and carried on their way down. Clouds at 1,500 feet????? and you are In them..??? just above them when I was deciding between the reserve and the main Now then you say,,, you didn't feel the reserve fire???.. hmmm must have been preoccupied i suppose.... Pretty much yes Did you not see the other 2 jumpers deploy??? no they tracked away and deployed, I personally had all my attention focused on making loose ends meet are you using a student AAD or an Expert?? (different firing settings)... -Lowest firing settings, expert good deal that you are ok....sort of shows how much we can get away with..... -Thanks but I don't think i'll have this much luck twice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,063 #22 June 20, 2007 >you didn't feel the reserve fire? I will note here that during most cypres firings after the main canopy opens the jumper does not feel it, and does not know what happened until the reserve begins to bump around the main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #23 June 20, 2007 Yeah I had one of those at 50 jumps FXC fired after pulling at 2500ft. I had no clue. "Why is my canopy steering so sluggish all of a sudden?" Looking up, and UP and - oh. %^&*. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinchicken 0 #24 June 21, 2007 J brave guy for admitting to a mistake in public. cheers to you. I once jumped without completely tightening my leg straps. Scared the shit out of me. You won't see that happen again. same will go for you. Sounds like you still have a lil left in the luck bucket. "Diligent observation leads to pure abstraction". Lari Pittman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
5w0rdsharky 0 #25 June 22, 2007 I had something simular when I was on my AFF course. I routed the chest strap through the bottom part of the gater but then routed it over the top gater and not through it!!! So you couldnt see the buckle/gater at all... Totally obvious to look at but I managed to trick 3 eperienced skydivers who were stood there looking at it. If it wasnt for my AFF instructor noticing it I would have jumped it!! Things happen for the best I feel and this is a good example. I'll never ever do that again and i'll also double check everyone elses. Ive heard stories of people tracking out of there rig becuase of this. scary.. Take care people. SharkyAnyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
