Irresponsible parents?

[jraf 0]

I strongly believe that if you decide to have children, you should be prepared to give them a shot at higher education. Sadly enough in todays world people without a college degree are being reduced to second tier roles.

Is it not irresponsible to have children knowing you will not be able to give them a bright future or at least a choice? Is it not irresponsible to have children knowing that you will be sending them to the unemployment line or to collect food stamps?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[narcimund 0]

Sounds like you've got something personal here.

My parents didn't send me to college. I sent myself. Paid every penny. Hurt like hell to be at work while my college buddies drank and screwed. But I made it.

Never been in an unemployment line. Never got food stamps. Learned to be responsible for myself, as it should be.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Casch 0]

I agree with you. I never really thought about it, but if I decided to have a kid(s) some day, I would hope that I would be able to afford to put them through college first. With all the oportunities for scholarships and grants and such, they would probably be able to get in anyway, but knowing that when all else fails, you can help them out is important.

[SatchFan 0]

I disagree. Most successful people that I deal with don't have a degree at all. I guess it's a matter of perception and how you define success.

[freeflir29 0]

Hey....my parents gave me just about every opportunity there is and look how I turned out...

[wmw999 2,545]

What does "giving them a shot" mean? Paying for it? Or just making sure they're raised in a world where higher education is definitely an option that they know how to consider? If you mean the second, then I sort of agree.

Living in a world where no one goes to college makes it much harder to even conceive of -- you don't really know what to do in order to get there (not that I know about that directly -- my dad was a college professor).

Irresponsible is having children and expecting them to meet your needs, or limiting their vistas so that they don't have a full option of choices about their own future. The world is full of opportunities whether or not you have higher education. Higher education increases the range -- that's a wonderful thing, and should be available.

But if you've managed to raise a productive carpenter, that's also a wonderful thing.

Wendy W.
(whose son is a sophomore in college)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kingbunky 3]

i disagree. i think that if a person wants a higher education bad enough, they will get it. will it be a harvard education? perhaps not, but there are schools that can give equivalent credentials. having an ivy league name on your diploma can give a person a leg-up, but in the long run, it's what you know and how you apply it that matters. giving a child an easy ride through school can set them up with higher than realistic expectations... if their life is too easy, they expect it to stay that way. if they have to work and suffer a little on the way, they will have a greater sense of accomplishment when they arrive.

just my $0.02.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[christoofar 0]

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I strongly believe that if you decide to have children, you should be prepared to give them a shot at higher education. Sadly enough in todays world people without a college degree are being reduced to second tier roles.

Is it not irresponsible to have children knowing you will not be able to give them a bright future or at least a choice? Is it not irresponsible to have children knowing that you will be sending them to the unemployment line or to collect food stamps?

College is not for everyone, and it certainly isn't a requirement to do a lot of service sector jobs. I have seen plenty of incompetent Ph.Ds in the computer software industry in the past ten years. I just got through firing a Cambridge company who was working with me on a TabletPC project last week. This company was staffed with MIT graduates.

There are many CEOs out there who never went to Harvard Business School or even sat down in a seminar at the Wharton School of Business. The late Dave Thomas is testament to that.

My parents did not give me one cent to go to college, I had to pay for it myself and am still paying now. I managed to get into a career before college and am paying my way through a private Catholic university. On top of all this, my parents OWE me $5,000 for drilling a water well on their property!!!

There are plenty of cubefarm jobs out there that list a college degree as a preq for the job, but in reality it's just an "ideal," not an absolute unless it's a job that requires a license/certification. As someone who has hired people in the past, I look for PROOF of your talent more than a prestigious piece of paper.

And oh yeah, if you're an A&M grad, you'll have to show me MORE proof that you're capable at writing software than the average applicant!

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Muenkel 0]

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Never been in an unemployment line. Never got food stamps. Learned to be responsible for myself, as it should be.

Be careful there, sometimes people find themselves in situations they never expected. Also, some people who have had to seek public assistance did so not because they were a lazy ass, but due to circumstances out of their control.

Now I better shut up, because I'm starting to sound like a democrat.

_________________________________________
Chris

[christoofar 0]

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Be careful there, sometimes people find themselves in situations they never expected.

Good point there. Just because you have a masters does not mean you are recession proof. Eletrical and Professional Engineers can testify to this one. From the 50s to the 70s they used to be hard to find and were very well paid folks.

Now most of them can barely clear the 55K mark and they are easily replaceable people. It's hard for folks to realize that labor is a supply/demand market and demand (employers' wants) change over time.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[jfields 0]

I disagree as well.

While I'm "kollege edumukated", I don't think it is a prerequisite for success, or more importantly, happiness. Plenty of people have perfectly wonderful lives without having to go through college. Sometimes, I wonder if I missed the boat when I spent so much time and effort getting through it.

That said, I want to be able to provide the opportunity for my daughter, should she want to go to college. I don't see people that don't pay for the entire thing as being bad or irresponsible. Maybe they chose to do something else. Perhaps they believe it is important to help out when their child gets married by giving them the down payment on a house. Perhaps they don't have enough money for both and make a different choice than you.

I think the irresponsible parents are the ones that don't love their children and take care of them to the best of their ability. That's all we can rightly ask, IMHO.

[jraf 0]

Nopem Narcimund, no pun there. My Dad got me through undergrad and an MBA program, my brother through undergrad an MBA and then an MIS program, my other brother through undergrad an is getting ready to put him through Medical School.

My point is about giving your kids a chance. I realize and agree that not everybody with a degree is going to become CEO of a Fortune 500, and I agree that a lot of people without formal education may, I repeat may become financialy comfortable. The statistics speak for education though.

Is it responsible to know you will not be able to give your kid a good shot at the future?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[freeflir29 0]

One other thing....My Dad only stayed for the 12th grade in High School because he wanted to play football for another year. He didn't have to because they had just added the 12th grade to the curriculum. He is now retired quite comfortably after a lifelong career as an airline pilot. My sister...she went to Ga Tech for all of a year before she lost interest, let her grades drop, and got booted. She has now been in the computer industry for about 17 years. She has written papers about the mail and data base systems that she works on. They have been published in industry manuals. She makes about $250,000 a year. Pretty good for not graduating college. I do think she is an exception. She has an incredibly high IQ and is very dedicated to and enjoys her work. I have way more college credit than she does. What has it gotten me? College CAN help but as they say..."A degree and .50C will get you a Coke." College is right for some people. I just don't think it's really for me.

[wmw999 2,545]

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Is it responsible to know you will not be able to give your kid a good shot at the future?

What is your definition of "future"? The ability to make more money is correlated to higher education (of course, I only have a lowly BA), but I think there are a number of people out there who are happy and productive members of society, raising happy and productive children, without benefit of a college degree.

If your definition of "chance" is tied to money, then maybe your vistas need enlarging. And I'm not trying to be mean or offensive when I say that.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Why is it that you need a license for a dog,hell in the UK you need a licence for a TV, but any fool is allowed to be a parent (good or bad)?

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[jfields 0]

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College is right for some people. I just don't think it's really for me.

Honestly, college can be right and wrong for the same person at different times. After high school, I spent two years in college. I had no freakin' clue what I was doing, other than wasting a whole lot of my parents money at a private college. So I left and enlisted in the Army. After I got out, I started putting myself through school in the evenings while working full time. Once I'd shown my parents that I was really ready, they picked up part of the cost.

Like the warden said in Cool Hand Luke, "You got to get your mind right!"

[jraf 0]

Clay, the situation you described with your Father and sister is historically different. It used to be that you could have a successful career without formal education. But since the beginning of the '80 it became obvious that it will be harder and harder without.

Again what you say does confirm my point. Both you and your sister were given the CHOICE. It's like going to a Mercedes dealership and looking at cars. Some people love them but know thwy will never be able to afford them. And some people have the choice of saying - OK, I'll go work for a year or two and maybe even pay cash for it.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[skybytch 273]

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Irresponsible is having children and expecting them to meet your needs, or limiting their vistas so that they don't have a full option of choices about their own future.

Exactly. Expose your kids to as many different things as possible then let them decide what they want to do with their life. Even if you disagree with that choice.

I think people appreciate things more if they earn them themselves. I know I'll appreciate going to school and any possible future benefits that might come out of it far more now than I did when my parent's were paying for it.

[freeflir29 0]

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I had no freakin' clue what I was doing, other than wasting a whole lot of my parents money at a private college

Exactly the reason I ended up in the Air Force and not college. I guess I can pat myself on the back for knowing that without WASTING the money first. I guess my problem is that a "normal" career just doesn't interest me. I left the military cause I was bored and a little disenchanted. OK...a lot disenchanted. Anyway....I got excited about being in the IT industry. That lasted about 6 months... Now I'm back to finding "Unconventional" ways to make a living. *shrug*

[skygal3 0]

I firmly believe that a college education is vital to live in this society...irresponsible parents? It depends. My parents were not irresponsible, however, I put myself through college without depending upon them. On the flipside, there are countless examples of kids going to college on daddy's dollar and having no other reason to be there but to party...My parents set a good example for me; they always encouraged me to follow my dreams. My mother would always tell me, from a very young age, that there is nothing that I could not do, that I could be anything I wanted to be. I cherish that, because it always stuck with me. From a very young age I would look at the world around me and be facinated by all of the different careers I could chose from... I still do! The most important asset ( I think) that I carry with me is my determination to push my potential in everything that I do; work, health, personal relationships, (skydiving!), and that is something that my parents instilled in me. Never settle.

[narcimund 0]

Nopem, jraf, I disagree with your premise.

While having a college degree might somewhat improve one's overall income (on average) I propose that being given a college degree will not.

Anecdotal evidence: My friends in college who mostly never saw the inside of the college's business office are currently working mundane jobs they hate and wondering why life is so unfair. I own a business I love and make pretty good money. Nothing looks like it should be free to me.

My testable proposition is that people whose parents bought them another four years of vacation so they could really get down and study without distractions train their kids that even the adult world can be approached like they were still dependent children.

More anecdotal evidence: My parents were both bought college degrees (and much, much more) by their parents. I'm doing far, far better than either of them ever have -- in the work world, that is.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[jraf 0]

Wendy I am far from treating people who lack formal education any worse. On the contrary, A lot of my great friends don't have anything but a high school diploma. They are great people, and I hate to see them stuck in a trailer park, struggling to make ends meet.

It is the trailer park syndrom, are you willing to take the risk of sentencing your children to the trailer park?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[jfields 0]

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I guess I can pat myself on the back for knowing that without WASTING the money first.

The thing is, if I had chosen not to go after high school, they would have thrown a fit. They were basically willing to flush the money for me to at least go try. And at the time, I thought it was what I wanted. Of course, if I'd been a little less dense, I would have come to my realization after one year's tuition and not two...

[Muenkel 0]

jraf,

Why are you mocking people who live in trailer parks? I have met some of the nicest people who live in trailers and some of the meanest who live in mansions.

_________________________________________
Chris

[JDBoston 0]

A college degree used to be viewed as a meal ticket since not everyone had one, but now there are so many colleges popping up everywhere that it really doesn't mean too much in and of itself. For instance, at the state college my parents taught at, a lot of the students have little interest in anything remotely thought-related, and just think that a gentleman's C and a diploma will land them a job. I wonder if they're surprised when they end up waiting on tables of construction workers who make five times as much money as they do. There are also numerous people in sales professions of various flavors making assloads of money without a 4-year degree.

So, like other people on this thread, I wouldn't use that as the barometer for a financially successful life. What I DO have a big problem with, though, is parents splurging on boats and cars and nice clothes and going out to eat and stuff, and failing to save money for their kids' education. I saw a lot of that growing up and frankly it makes me sick. Don't have kids if you're not willing to put their needs and future ahead of your own.

Joe