CIA Assasinates US Citizen

[Michele 1]

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Where are the "pinks"? When you sign off with me it is "Ciels and Pinks"! I expect nothing less. [Crazy]

Yessir....

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BTW, I have no idea what you mean by "Ciels and Pinks". [Tongue]

"Ciels and Pinks" was what I signed off with most of this year. The Pinks refers to Pink suits, or Pink ribbons, and recognized the JFTC and the effort they were (and are) making to raise $$ for breast cancer. Ciels is skies, pinks is, well, pinks....now that JFTC is done with for the moment, I dropped the pinks part....

BTW, you have any idea how easy it was to type "ciels and PUNKS", rather than pinks? LOL....always tried to make sure that particular typo was not done.

Ciels (and pinks for Muenkel...)
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Sigh. Nothing like taking a simple analogy and turning it completely inside out.

I agree, not always the right thing to do, but then how could I know how much of the analogy you meant to apply to this specific case?

And clay, I am sure that to al qaida crippling the US economy is a very real military target.

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The customers of drug dealers choose to use products which have been known to cause death.

And to play devil's advocate, I am sure that a follower of al qaida could easily say that americans choose to work for and in a very, in their mind, oppresive and aggresive country.

[happythoughts 0]

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He got whacked. Good riddance. No trial or jury necessary.

Do you know how he came about his decision? Do you know if maybe he thinks jews or blacks or school teachers are the enemies of the country?

It takes a lot of planning to make something like this work. I can't even get my car oil changed in the agreed amount of time.

These guys aren't randomly taking pot-shots at passing cars with their brothers bb-gun. This was a well-planned and considered action.

Thanks for throwing in the race card. It isn't really part of any issue at hand, but I am sure that if he was black/Jewish/Arab/Eskimo, it would still be ok to blow his butt up. We could go off on another tangent and theorize about possible racism in the CIA, but it isn't really part of this item is it?

Are we having the same conversation? You seem to be throwing in a lot of extraneous stuff. I'm just talking about one guy with no other rational (don't let that word scare ya) reason for him being there. Glad that guy is gone.

[Muenkel 0]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. If you wish, you can drop the "pinks" part.

BTW, you weren't a participant in the "F*** Muenkel" jump, were you?

_________________________________________
Chris

[kmcguffee 0]

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this scares the crap out of me way more than any terrorists

I've got a tip for you that will keep it from happening to you. Don't go drinking with terrorists, don't hang around with terrorists. You'll be fine.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[freeflir29 0]

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And clay, I am sure that to al qaida crippling the US economy is a very real military target

And so is a car full of high ranking Al-Qaeda leaders.
Alls fair right?

[skybytch 273]

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And to play devil's advocate, I am sure that a follower of al qaida could easily say that americans choose to work for and in a very, in their mind, oppresive and aggresive country.

Before the fall of the iron curtain, many people in the so-called "free world," including many in Canada, felt that Russia and other communist countries were "oppresive and aggresive." Did we organize groups ("cells") of terrorists ("freedom fighters"), highjack and then fly multiple planeloads of innocent Russians into Russian places of business? Of course not. That would have been considered the wrong thing to do.

[PhillyKev 0]

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When I travel, I do not retain the same rights as I do when I am in this country. I am subjected to the laws and legal systems of whichever country I visit. Period. My rights as a US citizen stop once I pass the border.

Cool, let's just start luring people we don't want around across the border into Mexico and then send CIA operative to kill them. No, that's not what happened in this case, but it's not that great of a leap.

I happen to have known a couple people who were killed in NY. And I know for a fact that at least one of them would rather die a thousand deaths and take their family with them rather than have the US gov't start killing its own citizens without a trial.

Think of this scenario. An innocent US investment manager goes to meet with a rich Saudi oil baron. The Saudi is planning on opening an account with him and it's a routine business deal. It just so happens this Saudi is actually a senior level Al Queda member who is using a fake identity to shelter some of their funds. They're sitting down to dinner to discuss business and get blown away. Guess the US investment manager should have known better that to sit down to dinner in an allied country with what he knows to be an innocent business associate.

Did I ever say the guy who was killed didn't deserve it? No, I didn't. But this is a very dangerous and frightening precedent and it crosses a line that I don't think we should be crossing.

[Michele 1]

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Thanks for clearing that up for me. If you wish, you can drop the "pinks" part.

Oh thank you!

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BTW, you weren't a participant in the "F*** Muenkel" jump, were you?

No, but I screamed it repeatedly on the ground. Drew some strange looks, as I was alone and standing at the fence at the time, no beer close to hand. I just wanted to be included. Sadly, Fu** Muenkel was an exclusive sort of thing, and I simply didn't measure up to the standards. Believe me, there was a line of people wanting to scream invectives at you, but only a select few were able to actually carry that cry into the sky. [edited to reflect the fact that this was a fun jump, and done in fun, good humor, and intent to include Chris in the sky he belongs in...not in the least serious...]

Sigh.

Maybe someday I can do a FU** Muenkel jump. It would make me a whole woman. (
Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[kmcguffee 0]

LOL, good one. Glad to see you getting involved in the "political" threads. You're good.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[PhillyKev 0]

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Before the fall of the iron curtain, many people in the so-called "free world," including many in Canada, felt that Russia and other communist countries were "oppresive and aggresive." Did we organize groups ("cells") of terrorists ("freedom fighters"), highjack and then fly multiple planeloads of innocent Russians into Russian places of business? Of course not. That would have been considered the wrong thing to do.

No, we just gave money to Osama Bin Laden so that he could do it for us.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Before the fall of the iron curtain, many people in the so-called "free world," including many in Canada, felt that Russia and other communist countries were "oppresive and aggresive." Did we organize groups ("cells") of terrorists ("freedom fighters"), highjack and then fly multiple planeloads of innocent Russians into Russian places of business? Of course not. That would have been considered the wrong thing to do.

No, but you did effectively ruin many a person's life because there were suspicions of them being a part of a communist group. You know, the stuff we now laugh about because in retrospect it was pretty stupid.....

[kmcguffee 0]

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But this is a very dangerous and frightening precedent and it crosses a line that I don't think we should be crossing.

What precedent are we setting? Killing terrorists is OK? I don't think anyone is going to tell you that they intended to kill an innocent person (if he is innocent). I'm positive that if they knew he was a US citizen before the attack they would not have carried it out at that time. Most likely, they did not know he was there when the attack happened. If this is true then you are saying we have to have 100% certainty that no innocent people or US citizens are present when an attack happens. I'm sure you realize that this "100% certainty" will never happen therefore we will never be able to execute these types of missions.

It is interesting to me how some people believe that everyone in the government is out to break as many laws as possible. That attitude is completely wrong and very childish.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[happythoughts 0]

"Cool, let's just start luring people we don't want around across the border into Mexico and then send CIA operative to kill them. No, that's not what happened in this case, but it's not that great of a leap. "

Uhhh...yeah it is. A great big leap. This wasn't people who were "lured". They are the architects of war. And they aren't just anyone were irritated with. We are tremendously pissed.


"I happen to have known a couple people who were killed in NY"

I kind of doubt that they would agree you. Good try on the psychic thing. In fact, I'll bet they'd press that button themselves. These ^**## stole their life and their future.

"Think of this scenario..."

Let's not. Let's think of the current scenario, not go off on an unrelated tangent again. The US isn't going around willy-nilly whacking people in cars. You are asking to consider the "possible" occurrence of a fictitious event. What for? It has no relationship to what we are talking about.

"this is a very dangerous and frightening precedent and it crosses a line that I don't think we should be crossing. "

I think it scares the pee out of the other Al-Queda people. Good example. Good idea. I hope they continue doing it until they get them all.

[kmcguffee 0]

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No, but you did effectively ruin many a person's life

Hmmm, ruin a person's life vs kill them. Vast difference if you ask me. Anytime you investigate someone you "ruin their life".

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[DJL 235]

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you agree with the CIA operative who decided this US citizen should be presumed guilty and assasinated

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Not being privy to the CIA meetings, I can only go on assumption, but I'm pretty sure the target was "a senior al-Qaida leader, Abu Ali al-Harithi, who is suspected of masterminding the October 2000 attack on the USS Cole.".

Mr. Hijazi was hangin with the wrong crowd.

Amen, I agree with you. Anyone please correct me but I believe the CIA has demostrated the proper use of a device to combat terrorists. I say open fire. The article painted the CIA as "trigger-pulling" = trigger happy. Do you really think they're going to just shoot everything that moves and hope they get it right? They are NOT operating on assumptions and they are not operating by either of the careless phylosophies of "sort it out later" or "means to an end". They got it right based upon research and intelligence. The fact that Hijazi was a US citizen has no bearing on this discussion. This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that everyone was screaming that the CIA should have done in the first place.

This is not a comparison with the government vs. peace protestors, these are killers who declared war against the CITIZENS of the United States.

-Doug

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[PhillyKev 0]

It takes a lot of planning to make something like this work. I can't even get my car oil changed in the agreed amount of time.

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The CIA's separate targeting process, which was used in Sunday's Predator strike, is quicker, more fluid and involves fewer decision-makers in its "trigger-pulling" chain of command than even the nimblest military operation, intelligence experts said.

"Are we having the same conversation? You seem to be throwing in a lot of extraneous stuff. I'm just talking about one guy with no other rational (don't let that word scare ya) reason for him being there. Glad that guy is gone. "

That's the point that I'm trying to make. Once we let the constitutional rights of citizens be trampled, no matter what the rationale, what's stopping us from taking the next step, and the step after that. The Nazi party in Germany didn't seize power overnight. It was years of small moves in that direction that got them to where they did. I see this as a small move in that same direction.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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It is interesting to me how some people believe that everyone in the government is out to break as many laws as possible. That attitude is completely wrong and very childish.

Right, a US government organization killing a US citizen on foreign soil based solely on suspician is an everyday occurence, really not even worth discussing. (as far as the legal aspect of it, I am sure that on US soil it would be illegal to do.)

[freeflir29 0]

A little bit of history.


Early 80's....a disco in West Germany is bombed. An airplane is blown up over Scotland. A couple other things but I can't remember them right now. All linked to Libya. Col Khaddaffi is running his mouth publicly and letting it be known that his country sponsored these terrorist actions. Ronald Reagan says "Oh really...you're a big tough guy huh?" and proceeds to send the US Navy and Air Force to bomb what? Not a baby milk factory....not a military target.....Khaddaffi's own fucking house!!! I think the raid even killed one of his children. I loved it. Reagan made it personal. I think we need to make this war personal for these jackasses. Khaddaffi hsn't hardly been heard from since.

West Germany...late 70's I think. 11 Olympic Athletes are taken hostage by terrorists. After a fiasco caused by German dumbasses all the hostages are killed at the airport. The pussy Germans strike a deal with the terrorists and let them go. Apparently they were afraid of the terrorists. Israel was pissed and rightly so. Israeli government officials went to the families and told them what happened. They also told them that these terrorists would be hunted down. No trial...no bullshit....just hunted down and killed. Israel did just that. I loved it....I think it's what we need to do now. Rules in warfare are stupid. "Tho are paid for thyne results. Not thyne methods."

[skybytch 273]

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No, but you did effectively ruin many a person's life because there were suspicions of them being a part of a communist group.

I did? I coulda swore I wasn't even born when all that happened.

I'm not saying that the US government has never done anything wrong, stupid, unethical, unbelievable, covert, etc, etc, etc. It has. Y'know what? It probably will again. What I am saying is in this case I feel that what a certain part of the US government did was, in my opinion, consistent with the policy that was established by the US government after 9/11/01.

And with that, I'm outta this thread.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Hmmm, ruin a person's life vs kill them. Vast difference if you ask me. Anytime you investigate someone you "ruin their life".

I hope you agree with me that investigating someone and the "US witch hunt" during the start of the cold war are two different things....

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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This is not a comparison with the government vs. peace protestors, these are killers who declared war against the CITIZENS of the United States.

Right, so you go and kill another US CITIZEN on a suspicion......

[kmcguffee 0]

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Right, a US government organization killing a US citizen on foreign soil based solely on suspician is an everyday occurence, really not even worth discussing. (as far as the legal aspect of it, I am sure that on US soil it would be illegal to do.)

I'm not really sure what point you are making here. It is actually illegal to do overseas or on US soil unless the person poses an imminent danger to someone's life. Now there is a lot lower threshold where Canadians are concerned.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Michele 1]

Hey, Kev and Justin...

I understand your positions. I don't agree with them. It's all good. We'll just agree to disagree at this point.

C-ya in the skies!!!
Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[PhillyKev 0]

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Israeli government officials went to the families and told them what happened. They also told them that these terrorists would be hunted down. No trial...no bullshit....just hunted down and killed. Israel did just that. I loved it....

Good thing too, because that eliminated terrorism activity in Israel.