piisfish 140 #26 June 27, 2007 The Chinook has 46 fatalities in 1 accident scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #27 June 27, 2007 Don't you just love raw statistics? They allow you to prove any theory you want ... kind of like the bible ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #28 June 27, 2007 Quote The Chinook has 46 fatalities in 1 accident I would say God help us if a Casa crashes with a full load aboard. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #29 June 27, 2007 CASA holds 32, Skyvan is upwards of 25 if I remember right. Otters hold 23 all the time. If any of those would go down again with full loads its going to be bad. Raw stats are able to be twisted to tell any story you want them to tell. Want to show 182's as safe? They have more non fatal accidents then fatal ones. Want to show them as dangerous? Point out how many incidents there are with them compared to other planes.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #30 June 27, 2007 Every Skyvan I've been on has been a 23 max.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #31 June 27, 2007 QuoteWant to show 182's as safe? They have more non fatal accidents then fatal ones. I'd bet that on a per flight hour basis, they have a low accident rate. I don't think the number of fatalities per accident has much to do with a plane's safety... it has to do with the plane's capacity. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #32 June 27, 2007 QuoteI don't think the number of fatalities per accident has much to do with a plane's safety... it has to do with the plane's capacity./reply] Or the pilots competency? Quote King Airs are fun to fly, relatively cheap and plentiful, yet possibly one of the poorest choices as a jump plane around with that low slung horizontal stabilizer and the aircraft's sensitivity to aft CG loads I'm convinced that skydivers can cause a King Air to stall despite a pilot who is doing everything right at the time, but most of the tales I've heard, and a few of my best skydiving flying lies are a combination of pilot and skydiver fault ... How do these statistics show as pilot error versus mechanical issues? Another words, is a specific airplane to blame, or pilots in command? I am not a pilot, so forgive my inability to understand, but is it correct to say that a specific airplane is “bad” or to blame or for that matter, the occupants? If the pilot is in command, how can the occupants be to blame if the pilot does not take command and brief the occupants before a flight? I have never been on a jump plane where the pilot gave a briefing as to what is expected of the occupants except for once, at a boogie on a Skyvan. How should I know what is expected of me as a skydiver? Only by word of mouth by other skydivers?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Freeflysmiley 2 #33 June 28, 2007 QuoteI've seen the video of the King Air stall in the UK. I believe that having jumpers in the tail of the aircraft while other jumpers moved out to floating positions very strongly contributed to that stall. What the actual speed of the jump run was I don't know. What did the pilot say he was flying at and what had he been told to fly at? What power settings was he told to fly at and what did he actually fly at? But most certainly the one jumper in the tail who grabbed another jumper when he felt the stall coming on actually exacerbated the situation by pulling the jumper TO THE REAR OF THE AIRCRAFT. Not good. He certainly knew something was coming on and was trying to signal to the jumpers on the outside to go and go quickly. However, it seems they were waiting for their group member to join them in the door. Jumpers should be reminded not to get tunnel vision. That's easier said then done though. You're not expecting someone not in your group to start wildly waiving their arm. A more obvious and situation altering action like leaving the plane himself instead of grabbing the other jumper would have caused the group to possibly go earlier and keep the situation from getting out of hand. If you are climbing on the outside of the plane and you suddenly feel some buffeting or you feel light on your feet this may be your only warning of the onset of a stall. It may require you to immediately leave the aircraft. If you are going to have rear floaters you MUST first get people out of the rear cabin area aft of the door so that the total CG shift is first FORWARD then AFT. This climb out the CG just kept getting more and more aft with dead weight (two jumpers in the far tail) still inside. That's my opinion. I also read on the UK boards that the video shows that the plane never leveled off and was still nose up. How do they suppose that? I couldn't say that from the one POV video uploaded to the skydiving video website. Just because you can see the top of the horizontal stabilizer doesn't mean he's still in a climb attitude. It means the jumper wearing the camera is tall enough to see over the horizontal stab. That's all. There are clouds in the background and no horizon is really discernable until fully into the stall and the jumpers fall off the aircraft. I am really interested in hearing what the pilot was trained to do and what he says he actually flew during that run. Maybe the training needs to be looked at. Maybe the pilot did mess up. But I believe there's a bit of blame to go around. I'm not a pilot, but on the uk thread, it seems the new USA pilot, has stated pilot error 100%!! Anytakers? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=5785&st=0&sk=t&sd=a-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 34 #34 June 28, 2007 QuoteEvery Skyvan I've been on has been a 23 max. Most Skyvan loads I've been on have had 20-21 jumpers."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #35 June 28, 2007 In the grand scheme of things, the number of fatalities (percentage of occupants) is related to the speed of impact. Energy increases with the square of the velocity. The slower the arrival - at the scene of the accident - the fewer fatalities. IOW Your only hope of surviving an airplane crash is impacting near wings level, near stall speed, in a flat field, tightly belted in, hard shell helmet on, etc.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cpoxon 0 #36 June 29, 2007 Quote I'm not a pilot, but on the uk thread, it seems the new USA pilot, has stated pilot error 100%!! Anytakers? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=5785&st=0&sk=t&sd=a I think you may be confused. DiverDriverUS (Chris) is not the new American pilot at Dunkeswell (Ed).Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Freeflysmiley 2 #37 June 29, 2007 QuoteQuote I'm not a pilot, but on the uk thread, it seems the new USA pilot, has stated pilot error 100%!! Anytakers? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=5785&st=0&sk=t&sd=a I think you may be confused. DiverDriverUS (Chris) is not the new American pilot at Dunkeswell (Ed). No Craig I'm not confused, its not what i said. I quote from uk forum: QuoteThe plane is 110% safe to jump out of - given the correct pilot which we now have. Ed has been flown in from the states to fly the King and is also in agreement that it was caused by pilot error when he evaluated the footage. I was interested why pilots including Chris think COG is the main culprit, yet the new USA pilot says pilot error. Also this: QuoteThis footage from several different people throughout the plane and the footage from outside the plane has been shown to pilots from Hinton, Langar and other pilots at Dunkeswell and all the pilots are in total agreement that it was pilot error, I quote they said "100% pilot error " They say this incident had nothing to do with CoG (Center of gravity) Also the weekend before an 8 way freefly group was the first group out. I was 4th out the door and this did not cause any problems!!! The 3 people in the freefly group could not of caused this especially as noone moved in the plane prior to it stalling. There is nothing wrong with the King air nor anything wrong with them jumping out in groups etc. For a plane that weighs so much a mear 3 skydivers in the door weighing approximently 200 Kg is not going to cause a stall. -------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Freeflysmiley 2 #38 July 3, 2007 http://www.pauljcooper.co.uk/videos/Stall1.wmv Inside plane footage-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #39 July 3, 2007 Surprised to see a photographer sitting behind the door/over the toilet. That doesn't exactly help CG issues. It looks like there is someone next to him as well? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mktoson 0 #40 July 3, 2007 I agree...2 people at or behind the door inside with a rear floater outside is bad bad joo joo in a king air... So far, this is the oldest I've ever been. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #41 July 4, 2007 QuoteHow much of an issue is CofG? Could say 6 or 7 jumpers in the rear cause a stall? Edit to add: On run in. With 3 jumpers on the outside. Ask the pilot to show you a weight and balance calculation for that airplane and configuration. Start by asking for weight and balance for takeoff as you normally sit, then ask him to compute weight and balance for a normal exit, and finally the exit you are asking about. He should be able to show that the aircraft is always operated within the weight and balance parameters established by the manufacturer. I doubt he can do that. In fact, I doubt many skydiving aircraft are balanced at exit. Also, ask him about the disturbed airflow over the tail when there are people standing outside the door, and ask him what that does to his stall speeds. A competent pilot should be able to discuss these issues with you, and should be able to present detailed weight and balance data, with a clear understanding of how that affects the performance of the aircraft. If the aircraft is being operated outside of the manufacturers limits you should know that, and you should know how that changes the risk of the operation. ...something to think about.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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Freeflysmiley 2 #33 June 28, 2007 QuoteI've seen the video of the King Air stall in the UK. I believe that having jumpers in the tail of the aircraft while other jumpers moved out to floating positions very strongly contributed to that stall. What the actual speed of the jump run was I don't know. What did the pilot say he was flying at and what had he been told to fly at? What power settings was he told to fly at and what did he actually fly at? But most certainly the one jumper in the tail who grabbed another jumper when he felt the stall coming on actually exacerbated the situation by pulling the jumper TO THE REAR OF THE AIRCRAFT. Not good. He certainly knew something was coming on and was trying to signal to the jumpers on the outside to go and go quickly. However, it seems they were waiting for their group member to join them in the door. Jumpers should be reminded not to get tunnel vision. That's easier said then done though. You're not expecting someone not in your group to start wildly waiving their arm. A more obvious and situation altering action like leaving the plane himself instead of grabbing the other jumper would have caused the group to possibly go earlier and keep the situation from getting out of hand. If you are climbing on the outside of the plane and you suddenly feel some buffeting or you feel light on your feet this may be your only warning of the onset of a stall. It may require you to immediately leave the aircraft. If you are going to have rear floaters you MUST first get people out of the rear cabin area aft of the door so that the total CG shift is first FORWARD then AFT. This climb out the CG just kept getting more and more aft with dead weight (two jumpers in the far tail) still inside. That's my opinion. I also read on the UK boards that the video shows that the plane never leveled off and was still nose up. How do they suppose that? I couldn't say that from the one POV video uploaded to the skydiving video website. Just because you can see the top of the horizontal stabilizer doesn't mean he's still in a climb attitude. It means the jumper wearing the camera is tall enough to see over the horizontal stab. That's all. There are clouds in the background and no horizon is really discernable until fully into the stall and the jumpers fall off the aircraft. I am really interested in hearing what the pilot was trained to do and what he says he actually flew during that run. Maybe the training needs to be looked at. Maybe the pilot did mess up. But I believe there's a bit of blame to go around. I'm not a pilot, but on the uk thread, it seems the new USA pilot, has stated pilot error 100%!! Anytakers? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=5785&st=0&sk=t&sd=a-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #34 June 28, 2007 QuoteEvery Skyvan I've been on has been a 23 max. Most Skyvan loads I've been on have had 20-21 jumpers."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #35 June 28, 2007 In the grand scheme of things, the number of fatalities (percentage of occupants) is related to the speed of impact. Energy increases with the square of the velocity. The slower the arrival - at the scene of the accident - the fewer fatalities. IOW Your only hope of surviving an airplane crash is impacting near wings level, near stall speed, in a flat field, tightly belted in, hard shell helmet on, etc.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #36 June 29, 2007 Quote I'm not a pilot, but on the uk thread, it seems the new USA pilot, has stated pilot error 100%!! Anytakers? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=5785&st=0&sk=t&sd=a I think you may be confused. DiverDriverUS (Chris) is not the new American pilot at Dunkeswell (Ed).Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflysmiley 2 #37 June 29, 2007 QuoteQuote I'm not a pilot, but on the uk thread, it seems the new USA pilot, has stated pilot error 100%!! Anytakers? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=5785&st=0&sk=t&sd=a I think you may be confused. DiverDriverUS (Chris) is not the new American pilot at Dunkeswell (Ed). No Craig I'm not confused, its not what i said. I quote from uk forum: QuoteThe plane is 110% safe to jump out of - given the correct pilot which we now have. Ed has been flown in from the states to fly the King and is also in agreement that it was caused by pilot error when he evaluated the footage. I was interested why pilots including Chris think COG is the main culprit, yet the new USA pilot says pilot error. Also this: QuoteThis footage from several different people throughout the plane and the footage from outside the plane has been shown to pilots from Hinton, Langar and other pilots at Dunkeswell and all the pilots are in total agreement that it was pilot error, I quote they said "100% pilot error " They say this incident had nothing to do with CoG (Center of gravity) Also the weekend before an 8 way freefly group was the first group out. I was 4th out the door and this did not cause any problems!!! The 3 people in the freefly group could not of caused this especially as noone moved in the plane prior to it stalling. There is nothing wrong with the King air nor anything wrong with them jumping out in groups etc. For a plane that weighs so much a mear 3 skydivers in the door weighing approximently 200 Kg is not going to cause a stall. -------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflysmiley 2 #38 July 3, 2007 http://www.pauljcooper.co.uk/videos/Stall1.wmv Inside plane footage-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #39 July 3, 2007 Surprised to see a photographer sitting behind the door/over the toilet. That doesn't exactly help CG issues. It looks like there is someone next to him as well? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mktoson 0 #40 July 3, 2007 I agree...2 people at or behind the door inside with a rear floater outside is bad bad joo joo in a king air... So far, this is the oldest I've ever been. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #41 July 4, 2007 QuoteHow much of an issue is CofG? Could say 6 or 7 jumpers in the rear cause a stall? Edit to add: On run in. With 3 jumpers on the outside. Ask the pilot to show you a weight and balance calculation for that airplane and configuration. Start by asking for weight and balance for takeoff as you normally sit, then ask him to compute weight and balance for a normal exit, and finally the exit you are asking about. He should be able to show that the aircraft is always operated within the weight and balance parameters established by the manufacturer. I doubt he can do that. In fact, I doubt many skydiving aircraft are balanced at exit. Also, ask him about the disturbed airflow over the tail when there are people standing outside the door, and ask him what that does to his stall speeds. A competent pilot should be able to discuss these issues with you, and should be able to present detailed weight and balance data, with a clear understanding of how that affects the performance of the aircraft. If the aircraft is being operated outside of the manufacturers limits you should know that, and you should know how that changes the risk of the operation. ...something to think about.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
