BMFin 0 #1 July 28, 2002 Just curious. How usual is it when someone gets banned from jumping in certain DZ in U.S ? ? What do you have to do to get banned ? How about students ? What do they have to do to get banned ? Ok. Im a B-licence student I have 49 jumps (JAD-system). I just got banned for loosening my chest strap. (I ofcource loosened it just a few inches). I was asking one of the jump-masters how to loosen the chest strap ´cause its pretty difficult. He got pretty angry and told me its not allowed for the students. Later on the Safety manager of our club cept me a speach and told me im banned for jumping for a while. And also I cannot jump Sabre for the rest if my sutdent-time. Instead i have to jump PD-Navigator 200. ' I my self felt it was a pretty hard penalty. I dont blame the club crew for anything. I understand that the law here is pretty strict and they have to act according to it. Im just curious what do you people think ? Could this happen is U.S ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #3 July 28, 2002 talk about post whoring Hwhite BMFin, I don't know what to tell you on this one. Was that the first time you were spoken to? and they banned you? kinda rough I guess but unfortunately you can get banned for all kindza stuff if they think you are not learning form your mistakes or if they think you are a danger to others. It sounds like you got a rough deal but the story was a little vague. whatever you do, If you are on student status (with 49 jumps) make sure your gear is adjusted before boarding the plane.My photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #4 July 28, 2002 QuoteHow usual is it when someone gets banned from jumping in certain DZ in U.S ? I have been banned from my original home DZ for the last two years. I haven't been back in a year or so, so they might let me jump there again. Basically, I was banned for spending too much of my time jumping fixed objects, and not enough of my time (or money) jumping at the DZ. QuoteWhat do you have to do to get banned ? In my experience (at one of America's laxest DZ's--Lodi) it's totally personal and subjective. If the DZO is having a bad day, he'll ban you for landing out (even if you didn't spot the load--you should have opened higher). If he's having a good day, pulling at 500 feet is ok. Remember, the DZO who bans you is just a person. He has bad days, too. QuoteHow about students ? What do they have to do to get banned ? I've never seen a student get banned. Usually, they get banned because they are just not getting it, I think. QuoteI just got banned for loosening my chest strap. (I of course loosened it just a few inches). Take it philosophically. They probably are just concerned for your safety. If they want you to learn, they will let you come back and jump in a bit, and you'll be more careful for the experience. It's all part of the learning process, and probably not a big deal. Since you have a license, you can always just go to a different DZ, and jump there for a while. Think of it as a good opportunity to expand your horizons and meet new friends.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #5 July 28, 2002 A "B" license student????????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #6 July 28, 2002 QuoteA "B" license student????????? THat was my Question too. Never heard of JAD but the profile says he's from finland...so I have no idea!My photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #7 July 28, 2002 Quote BMFin, Was that the first time you were spoken to? and they banned you? .[/reply Yes. That was the first time i was banned. And I have neither been much spoken to. Ofcourse there are alway some minor safety issues that yoy should have done otherwise but, I have never done anything stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #8 July 28, 2002 QuoteQuoteA "B" license student????????? THat was my Question too. Never heard of JAD but the profile says he's from finland...so I have no idea! Sorry... In Finland we train students by either AFF or JAD(Jump-master Assisted Deployment). JAD is a program where you have to do 38 jumpmaster-approved jumps. At the first 6 jumps the Jumpmaster holds the PC in hes Hand and throws it immediedly after the student. Later on the student will self deploy. Then they are thaught to track , to sit , so RW etc. After all they get C- licence. and they are independent jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #9 July 29, 2002 QuoteAnd I have neither been much spoken to. Ofcourse there are alway some minor safety issues that yoy should have done otherwise but, I have never done anything stupid. Grow breasts and this harassment will stop.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Viking 0 #10 July 29, 2002 i can understand inforcing safty regs but jesus sombody needs to yank the 80 foot pine tree out of that guys ass!!I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud9 0 #11 July 29, 2002 I can't imagine being banned for that infraction. Its something experienced jumpers do a lot of. Its probably not the best thing for a student to be doing but I don't think its dangerous unless there is no stop on the chest strap to prevent it from coming all the way off. The only student I ever saw banned was banned because his AAD fired on the reserve. He landed out. When he got back he was pissed off about the spot! When asked why he didn't pull, he said he heard about ground rush and wanted to see what it was. He was banned for ever! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildblue 7 #12 July 29, 2002 this just sounds weird all the way around.... Are you sure there isn't more to the story? You have how many jumps and you don't know how a chest-strap works? Why is part of your penalty to be under a different canopy? Why were you loosening your chest strap?it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lippy 918 #13 July 29, 2002 QuoteWhen asked why he didn't pull, he said he heard about ground rush and wanted to see what it was. Hey, I heard that a prop'l take your head off. I'm gonna run into the front of a CessnaI got nuthin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jiggs 0 #14 July 29, 2002 There is a difference between being banned (eg don't come back here!) and being grounded for some kind of behaviour. (eg going low, landing in the car park, or any other stupid thing) This can typically be for anything from a day to a month. Beyond that and you are heading towards being banned. Getting grounded is supposed to make you think about what you have done wrong, to give you time to think and assimilate what it is you have done orsupposed to have done"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain." "In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #15 July 29, 2002 I've seen 2 people get tossed of the DZ i jump at and heard of at least 5 others in years past having to "leave the island". Most times it was for stuff like drugs on the DZ or harassing students/customers/staff. I've probally came the closest in recent times to being looked at from a safety stand point. Ripped canopy, sprained ankle, chopped freefly tube... list goes on and on. If I'm asked to leave... its cool because that means I royally screwed up and need something to keep me in check. If I over heard a student asking about loosening a chest strap... you bet I'd be grabbing thier JM and letting them know what I heard. I've got just under 400 jumps and hardly ever loosen the chest strap. Its just not worth the hassle to me at my level of canopy flying.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #16 July 29, 2002 You weren't banned, you were grounded. Big diff. You usually get banned when you do something stupid that can kill someone else, or the DZO feels like you're heading to make a crater and doesn't want to be the one to pick up the pieces. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #17 July 29, 2002 Quote this just sounds weird all the way around.... Are you sure there isn't more to the story? As far as i know of yes. There should be no more to the story. Quote You have how many jumps and you don't know how a chest-strap works? This i did not quite understand. At least i think i know how it works, if thats what you really ment. Quote Why is part of your penalty to be under a different canopy? This is a question to my self as well. My landings have been good and I have had no problems with the canopy i was banned for jumping. (sabre). I guess it is to make the penality more of a penality for me. (jumping a bigger canopy) Quote Why were you loosening your chest strap? I simply wanted to try how it effects the canopy if the risers are separated a few inces more. Just loosing it for a few inches no more. I never thought it would be so bad behaiviour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites drenaline 0 #18 July 29, 2002 Quote). I was asking one of the jump-masters how to loosen the chest strap ´cause its pretty difficult. He got pretty angry and told me its not allowed for the students. Later on the Safety manager of our club cept me a speach and told me im banned for jumping for a while. Did you know that you shouldn't have tried it before it was to late? You just got banned and nothing explained? What is that about you can't jump a sabre did they explain why? At least you can jump a cobalt and stilleto Just my very very personal opinion: it sucks, if you can change dropzone, do it, find a more friendly place a place were they can answer your questions instead of just banning you. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #19 July 29, 2002 QuoteDid you know that you shouldn't have tried it before it was to late? Well if I would have known better I offcource would have never told anyone I did it. QuoteAt least you can jump a cobalt and stilleto Hehe.. In Finland you need 250 jumps to jump elliptical. (we can jump Spectres and Sabre 2´s ... ofcourse) QuoteJust my very very personal opinion: it sucks, if you can change dropzone, do it, find a more friendly place a place were they can answer your questions instead of just banning you. Yeah. well anyways I love most of the people at our DZ a lot. Over all im enjoying my self there so thats no problem. And as I said , I understand that the safety manager is just doing her job so I have nothing against her. It just came to me as a shock that this thing was such a big deal so I wanted to share it and ask some opinions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites drenaline 0 #20 July 29, 2002 Quotewell anyways I love most of the people at our DZ a lot. Yeah, you are very right, the friends you meet at a dz are eternal, its like a brother hood. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redkiwi 0 #21 July 29, 2002 I'm curious. I'm a new jumper (11 jumps so far) and I don't understand loosening your chest strap. I was taught that it should be loose to do your arch. Can someone please clarify for me? Tks.ren Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jasmin 0 #22 July 29, 2002 Quote I simply wanted to try how it effects the canopy if the risers are separated a few inces more. Just loosing it for a few inches no more. I never thought it would be so bad behaiviour. I was very scared about loosening my chest strap under canopy when it was first suggested to me. Yes, I now I do it every jump and yes, my canopy does fly better. I think your DZSO was wrong in that they did not explain why you shouldn't be adjusting your chest strap under canopy with your low amount of jump numbers. The punishment of "upsizing" a student's canopy, is not unusual in the skydiving world. I've seen it done and heard of it being done. The unjust part is that they hadn't made it clear that you shouldn't do it, and why you should be punished. Remember that as a student your first priority should be getting to the ground safely. Anything after that is a bonus. With higher jump numbers, your own gear and licences comes the freedom to try thinks out a bit more. Harsh luck, but keep your chin up,xj "I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #23 July 29, 2002 Experienced jumpers under high performance canopies loosen their chest strap so that the canopy can spread out further (into the shape it was designed in). This can help the canopy to fly better. The gains are really not very significant until you start jumping elliptical canopies, and even then they don't become important until you get serious about swooping (I'm not, and even though I jump a fairly well loaded Stiletto, I never bother loosening the chest strap). If you want an in depth discussion of it, I suggest posting this question to the Swooping and Canopy Control Forum. Someone there is bound to know a whole lot more about it than I do.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallRate 0 #24 July 29, 2002 QuoteGrow breasts and this harassment will stop. Yeah!!! Preach on, Brother! FallRate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ernokaikkonen 0 #25 July 29, 2002 > It just came to me as a shock that this thing was such a big deal >so I wanted to share it and ask some opinions. It could be a big deal. The safety managers have to consider the worst-case-scenarios, which in this case would be: 1. loosen chest strap 2. fly the canopy (Sabre, as you mentioned) 3. Induce line twists by hard toggle input. Induced line twists can and will be unrecoverable, resulting in a cut-way. 4. Cut-away the spinning main, deploy reserve unstable(with or without the RSL) 5. Fall out of the harness because of the loosened chest strap I know this is a bit far fetched, but it could happen... The instructors are responsible for the students, and they don't need the additional hassle of students doing "experimental" things under canopy... Judging by your jump numbers, you won't have to jump student gear much longer... With your C-license you can do pretty much whatever you want, but don't make half-informed decisions. You obviously didn't have enough information on the effects of loosening the chest strap if you tried it on a Sabre190(I'm assuming the size). Ask for advice from the more experienced jumpers before trying something new, and try to bare with the Navigator for a few more jumps... Erno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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BMFin 0 #8 July 28, 2002 QuoteQuoteA "B" license student????????? THat was my Question too. Never heard of JAD but the profile says he's from finland...so I have no idea! Sorry... In Finland we train students by either AFF or JAD(Jump-master Assisted Deployment). JAD is a program where you have to do 38 jumpmaster-approved jumps. At the first 6 jumps the Jumpmaster holds the PC in hes Hand and throws it immediedly after the student. Later on the student will self deploy. Then they are thaught to track , to sit , so RW etc. After all they get C- licence. and they are independent jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #9 July 29, 2002 QuoteAnd I have neither been much spoken to. Ofcourse there are alway some minor safety issues that yoy should have done otherwise but, I have never done anything stupid. Grow breasts and this harassment will stop.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #10 July 29, 2002 i can understand inforcing safty regs but jesus sombody needs to yank the 80 foot pine tree out of that guys ass!!I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #11 July 29, 2002 I can't imagine being banned for that infraction. Its something experienced jumpers do a lot of. Its probably not the best thing for a student to be doing but I don't think its dangerous unless there is no stop on the chest strap to prevent it from coming all the way off. The only student I ever saw banned was banned because his AAD fired on the reserve. He landed out. When he got back he was pissed off about the spot! When asked why he didn't pull, he said he heard about ground rush and wanted to see what it was. He was banned for ever! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #12 July 29, 2002 this just sounds weird all the way around.... Are you sure there isn't more to the story? You have how many jumps and you don't know how a chest-strap works? Why is part of your penalty to be under a different canopy? Why were you loosening your chest strap?it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lippy 918 #13 July 29, 2002 QuoteWhen asked why he didn't pull, he said he heard about ground rush and wanted to see what it was. Hey, I heard that a prop'l take your head off. I'm gonna run into the front of a CessnaI got nuthin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jiggs 0 #14 July 29, 2002 There is a difference between being banned (eg don't come back here!) and being grounded for some kind of behaviour. (eg going low, landing in the car park, or any other stupid thing) This can typically be for anything from a day to a month. Beyond that and you are heading towards being banned. Getting grounded is supposed to make you think about what you have done wrong, to give you time to think and assimilate what it is you have done orsupposed to have done"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain." "In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #15 July 29, 2002 I've seen 2 people get tossed of the DZ i jump at and heard of at least 5 others in years past having to "leave the island". Most times it was for stuff like drugs on the DZ or harassing students/customers/staff. I've probally came the closest in recent times to being looked at from a safety stand point. Ripped canopy, sprained ankle, chopped freefly tube... list goes on and on. If I'm asked to leave... its cool because that means I royally screwed up and need something to keep me in check. If I over heard a student asking about loosening a chest strap... you bet I'd be grabbing thier JM and letting them know what I heard. I've got just under 400 jumps and hardly ever loosen the chest strap. Its just not worth the hassle to me at my level of canopy flying.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #16 July 29, 2002 You weren't banned, you were grounded. Big diff. You usually get banned when you do something stupid that can kill someone else, or the DZO feels like you're heading to make a crater and doesn't want to be the one to pick up the pieces. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #17 July 29, 2002 Quote this just sounds weird all the way around.... Are you sure there isn't more to the story? As far as i know of yes. There should be no more to the story. Quote You have how many jumps and you don't know how a chest-strap works? This i did not quite understand. At least i think i know how it works, if thats what you really ment. Quote Why is part of your penalty to be under a different canopy? This is a question to my self as well. My landings have been good and I have had no problems with the canopy i was banned for jumping. (sabre). I guess it is to make the penality more of a penality for me. (jumping a bigger canopy) Quote Why were you loosening your chest strap? I simply wanted to try how it effects the canopy if the risers are separated a few inces more. Just loosing it for a few inches no more. I never thought it would be so bad behaiviour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #18 July 29, 2002 Quote). I was asking one of the jump-masters how to loosen the chest strap ´cause its pretty difficult. He got pretty angry and told me its not allowed for the students. Later on the Safety manager of our club cept me a speach and told me im banned for jumping for a while. Did you know that you shouldn't have tried it before it was to late? You just got banned and nothing explained? What is that about you can't jump a sabre did they explain why? At least you can jump a cobalt and stilleto Just my very very personal opinion: it sucks, if you can change dropzone, do it, find a more friendly place a place were they can answer your questions instead of just banning you. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #19 July 29, 2002 QuoteDid you know that you shouldn't have tried it before it was to late? Well if I would have known better I offcource would have never told anyone I did it. QuoteAt least you can jump a cobalt and stilleto Hehe.. In Finland you need 250 jumps to jump elliptical. (we can jump Spectres and Sabre 2´s ... ofcourse) QuoteJust my very very personal opinion: it sucks, if you can change dropzone, do it, find a more friendly place a place were they can answer your questions instead of just banning you. Yeah. well anyways I love most of the people at our DZ a lot. Over all im enjoying my self there so thats no problem. And as I said , I understand that the safety manager is just doing her job so I have nothing against her. It just came to me as a shock that this thing was such a big deal so I wanted to share it and ask some opinions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #20 July 29, 2002 Quotewell anyways I love most of the people at our DZ a lot. Yeah, you are very right, the friends you meet at a dz are eternal, its like a brother hood. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redkiwi 0 #21 July 29, 2002 I'm curious. I'm a new jumper (11 jumps so far) and I don't understand loosening your chest strap. I was taught that it should be loose to do your arch. Can someone please clarify for me? Tks.ren Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jasmin 0 #22 July 29, 2002 Quote I simply wanted to try how it effects the canopy if the risers are separated a few inces more. Just loosing it for a few inches no more. I never thought it would be so bad behaiviour. I was very scared about loosening my chest strap under canopy when it was first suggested to me. Yes, I now I do it every jump and yes, my canopy does fly better. I think your DZSO was wrong in that they did not explain why you shouldn't be adjusting your chest strap under canopy with your low amount of jump numbers. The punishment of "upsizing" a student's canopy, is not unusual in the skydiving world. I've seen it done and heard of it being done. The unjust part is that they hadn't made it clear that you shouldn't do it, and why you should be punished. Remember that as a student your first priority should be getting to the ground safely. Anything after that is a bonus. With higher jump numbers, your own gear and licences comes the freedom to try thinks out a bit more. Harsh luck, but keep your chin up,xj "I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #23 July 29, 2002 Experienced jumpers under high performance canopies loosen their chest strap so that the canopy can spread out further (into the shape it was designed in). This can help the canopy to fly better. The gains are really not very significant until you start jumping elliptical canopies, and even then they don't become important until you get serious about swooping (I'm not, and even though I jump a fairly well loaded Stiletto, I never bother loosening the chest strap). If you want an in depth discussion of it, I suggest posting this question to the Swooping and Canopy Control Forum. Someone there is bound to know a whole lot more about it than I do.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallRate 0 #24 July 29, 2002 QuoteGrow breasts and this harassment will stop. Yeah!!! Preach on, Brother! FallRate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #25 July 29, 2002 > It just came to me as a shock that this thing was such a big deal >so I wanted to share it and ask some opinions. It could be a big deal. The safety managers have to consider the worst-case-scenarios, which in this case would be: 1. loosen chest strap 2. fly the canopy (Sabre, as you mentioned) 3. Induce line twists by hard toggle input. Induced line twists can and will be unrecoverable, resulting in a cut-way. 4. Cut-away the spinning main, deploy reserve unstable(with or without the RSL) 5. Fall out of the harness because of the loosened chest strap I know this is a bit far fetched, but it could happen... The instructors are responsible for the students, and they don't need the additional hassle of students doing "experimental" things under canopy... Judging by your jump numbers, you won't have to jump student gear much longer... With your C-license you can do pretty much whatever you want, but don't make half-informed decisions. You obviously didn't have enough information on the effects of loosening the chest strap if you tried it on a Sabre190(I'm assuming the size). Ask for advice from the more experienced jumpers before trying something new, and try to bare with the Navigator for a few more jumps... Erno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
