Timing of flares on landing

[Krmpy 0]

I'd like to get some advice on the timing of the flares during landing.

I heard that you flare around 10 feet of the ground and pull on the toggles depending on wind conditions - fast flare on windy days and slow flare on calm days.

I have done 14 jumps so far and I think only landed softly on 3 of those jumps. I am icing my knees / legs again such that I can do some jumps next week - thank goodness I heal quickly.

Thanks for your input.

[airtwardo 7]

Your best bet would be to talk with your Instructor regarding flaring questions...and ask about PLF's too.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

I'd like to get some advice on the timing of the flares during landing.

I heard that you flare around 10 feet of the ground and pull on the toggles depending on wind conditions - fast flare on windy days and slow flare on calm days.

I have done 14 jumps so far and I think only landed softly on 3 of those jumps. I am icing my knees / legs again such that I can do some jumps next week - thank goodness I heal quickly.

Thanks for your input.

It depends.

You need to flare so that you have acceptable forward and vertical speeds before reaching the ground.

Video and input from instructors are probably the simplest ways to achieve that.

I have five parachutes varying in size from 105 to 245 square feet and doubt any land like what you're flying as a student. I have no clue how far 10' is off the ground or when I start flaring and doubt most other skydivers are that analytical.

That said, flaring too soon (as long as you don't finish too early and stall) hurts less than flaring too late.

A proper PLF hurts a lot less than trying to stand up a bad landing. Even those of us with a lot of jumps sometimes screw up - I sat down on an accuracy landing under my biggest parachute a few weeks ago.

Get video. Get it analyzed.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Flare higher! Your student canopy is not going to stall unless you are 230lbs+, it is much less painful to flare too high and slowly bring it down over the next few jumps than to flare too low and gradually bring it up.
It is way cooler to land on your feet, but way less painful to do a parachute landing fall.
Are you a chick? Lots of women have trouble learning to land because they have problems finishing their flare due to upper body strength. If you are not getting your flare done starting a bit early combined with a big bite of FINISH will help.
REMEMBER: Always check with your instructor before implementing advice you got from some yahoo on dropzone.com.

[JohnMitchell 16]

One can flare too early, one can flare too late, one can flare too little, or too much too quickly. Without more info than ice on the knees, it's hard to tell you what you're doing wrong. Get an instructor to watch your landings, either live or on video, and get some useful answers. And learn to PLF.

John

[shermanator 4]

just don't do what I did this past weekend.. no wind, and I flared late, for some reason, I have gotten into the habbit of looking down at the ground as apposed to looking ahead.. anyways, I flared a bit late, would have been a gread opportunity for a plf, instead, i brough my legs up, not enough, brough legs out, like tandem, and cringed, thinking, "ohhh this is reallly reallly going to hurt!" but, for some reason, i wasnt smacking the ground, got a nice swoop for about 9 feet or so, but just inches from the ground. WHEW! ... Lesson, same lesson as always, never stop flying your canopy! if i had said screw it, this is going to hurt, and let off of the toggles, or reached for the ground, then it truly would have HURT>

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

just don't do what I did this past weekend.. no wind, and I flared late, for some reason, I have gotten into the habbit of looking down at the ground as apposed to looking ahead.. anyways, I flared a bit late, would have been a gread opportunity for a plf, instead, i brough my legs up, not enough, brough legs out, like tandem, and cringed, thinking, "ohhh this is reallly reallly going to hurt!" but, for some reason, i wasnt smacking the ground, got a nice swoop for about 9 feet or so, but just inches from the ground. WHEW! ... Lesson, same lesson as always, never stop flying your canopy! if i had said screw it, this is going to hurt, and let off of the toggles, or reached for the ground, then it truly would have HURT>

I had 2 similar kind of free style landing on wet grass. It was a kinda fun except I got some dirt on my gear.

[chrismgtis 0]

Quote

I heard that you flare around 10 feet of the ground and pull on the toggles depending on wind conditions - fast flare on windy days and slow flare on calm days.

I have done 14 jumps so far and I think only landed softly on 3 of those jumps. I am icing my knees / legs again such that I can do some jumps next week - thank goodness I heal quickly.

Thanks for your input.

Well, coming from someone who has had plenty of non-stand up landings, what I do right now is bend my knees (holding them out slightly in front of me) and get ready to PLF. Which has helped. Problem is I flare too late now, when I was flaring too early so I need to work on flaring earlier again. I busted my knees up a few times a couple of weeks ago.

It's a pain in the ass to learn to land, I've had some perfect landings consistently for an entire weekend and done nothing but slide in on my ass an entire weekend.

According to Scott Miller, who has over 8000 jumps and worked for PD at one time if I remember correctly, you flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time. If you're doing a one stage flare, there may be some kind of different scenario there, but I doubt it.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[riggerrob 643]

If your knees hurt, then you are not doing a text-book PLF.
Try to remember to absorb the impact with the big muscles along the SIDE of your legs.

First point of contact: balls of feet
2 - side of calf muscle
3 - side of thigh
4 - side of buttock
5 -diagonally across the back

[countzero 7]

things that helped me land softer: watching others land, having others watch me land and getting feed back, asking more experienced jumps for tips on landing, and being sure to take a breath and relaxing while on final so i wouldn't tense up and brace for impact (thus not finishing my flare).

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

[mijnjiku 0]

This is not to be taken as advice on your timing at all. I'm just a student. All I know is I watch just about every other student landing and see how they flare, where they flare, and the end result pretty carefully though not too analytically. I just look at the overall picture in how all those things work together. The time it takes for the flare to complete combined with your sense of depth perception and your awareness of the sum result of these two things put together is... i suppose... part science and part finesse/art.

I've only bit it once when I flared too high. That taught me when NOT to flare. The other 7 jumps have been stand up landings.

I love my thought process though right before flaring.

"way too high.... not yet.... not yet.... almost... not yet... ready.... here's where i screwed up.... not yet... NOW *flare*"

[AFFI 0]

Quote

According to Scott Miller, who has over 8000 jumps and worked for PD at one time if I remember correctly, you flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time. If you're doing a one stage flare, there may be some kind of different scenario there, but I doubt it.

Can anyone elaorate on this?
"flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time."
This does not make sense to me...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[NWPoul 1]

Quote

Can anyone elaorate on this?
"flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time."
This does not make sense to me...

H-mm I do my flare like he said:
1. Shut vertical speed to zero - begin surf
2. At the end of the surf finish flare shut horisontal speed

Wind/Nowind/Downwind are allmost the same, only horizontal distance/touchdown horizontal speed changing

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

Can anyone elaorate on this?
"flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time."
This does not make sense to me...

I think he wanted to say that we flying against the air, so wind speed does not matter for starting the flare and the dynamics of the flare should be the same too.

One of my mentor has a theory that in no wind you have to stab fast to flare properly. I don't think that makes any sense. A canopy in laminal flow flies the same manner.

The transition in flare from full flight to plane out should be the same: from same high with the very same timing. There is an assumption: density altitude is same.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Quote

According to Scott Miller, who has over 8000 jumps and worked for PD at one time if I remember correctly, you flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time. If you're doing a one stage flare, there may be some kind of different scenario there, but I doubt it.

Can anyone elaorate on this?
"flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time."
This does not make sense to me...

If you have vertical instability you may have to do something different to deal with it, but the speed of the wind normally has exactly zero effect upon the flight characteristics of a canopy. The goal of a flare is to achieve a zero groundspeed just before touchdown; I think S. Miller's point is that a difference in horizontal wind means you need to adjust when you flare not how.

[riggerrob 643]

A canopy in laminal flow flies the same manner.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just to complicate your theory ...

Flaring is all about transitioning from laminar flow to turbulent flow - over the top skin.
During the "turf surf" portion, you try to maintain laminar flow over the top skin, trying to extract every last ounce of lift from your forward momentum.
Late in the flare, you transition to turbulent flow (stall).
Stalling the canopy dramatically increases drag, helping to reduce ground speed. This is the first point when the speed of the wind across the ground makes any difference. Then a deep-stall further helps to increase drag and reduce your ground speed, so your knees don't bleed too badly.

The goal - with any flying machine - is to touch down with the least amount of residual energy.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I think S. Miller's point is that a difference in horizontal wind means you need to adjust when you flare not how.

"Flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time."

Is this an accurate and direct quote from him?
Although I have never trained with him personally, I have read dissertations written by him and it seems that communication is important to him because his papers are written so well.

"Flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time."

That statement can obviously be interpreted many ways and it would seem to me that a misunderstanding could occur, as it seems to have here.

I don’t flare the same way every time no matter what the conditions are.
By that I am talking about the mechanics involved with the integration between me and my canopy and how I react to various and always changing conditions, which is how this statement came across to me.
So I simply wanted to clear this up in case there are impressionable minds reading these posts that may incorporate bad habits into their learning curve by misinterpreting this statement as I did.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[billvon 2,995]

>I think S. Miller's point is that a difference in horizontal wind means
>you need to adjust when you flare not how.

You don't adjust when you flare, either. Given the same approach you always flare a canopy the same way no matter what the wind is doing. The goal is to stop your horizontal descent an inch above the ground and keep the canopy there until it stalls; that's no different whether you are landing downwind, upwind or crosswind. You can do other maneuvers, like turning your canopy into the wind while flaring, but that's not really a standard landing.

[chrismgtis 0]

Quote

"Flare the same no matter what the conditions. Do it the same every time."

Is this an accurate and direct quote from him?

No no. Not at all. I don't remember exactly how he said it. He could explain it better than I can. I just know what he meant when he was explaining it. As someone said in an earlier reply the wind speed doesn't matter and it doesn't matter if your flying downwind, crosswind or upwind. You flare at the same height every time and whatever technique that works best for you in a flare, you do it the same way no matter what the conditions.

Hopefully that makes a little more sense. Sorry.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[ROK 0]

Quote

I'd like to get some advice on the timing of the flares during landing.

I heard that you flare around 10 feet of the ground and pull on the toggles depending on wind conditions - fast flare on windy days and slow flare on calm days.

I have done 14 jumps so far and I think only landed softly on 3 of those jumps. I am icing my knees / legs again such that I can do some jumps next week - thank goodness I heal quickly.

Thanks for your input.

I go through the flaring process right after I open on each jump. I'll check my airspace, turn in to the wind for a few seconds, close my eyes, and flare. My body feels the point where it starts to swing forward from under the canopy. Doing this helps my timing when landing.

The best advice that helped me was to fly my canopy all the way to the end.

When I first started I watched people landing, read books, asked questions, and evaluated my landings on every jump. Nothing was as valuable as videos of my landings though. I would start through my flare and put my legs down for jarring impacts instead of finishing my flares properly.

[jakee 1,497]

Quote

The goal is to stop your horizontal descent an inch above the ground and keep the canopy there until it stalls; that's no different whether you are landing downwind, upwind or crosswind.

Maths question: If I am landing into a 20kt wind and keep flaring until my canopy stalls, how fast will I be running backwards when my feet touch the ground?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,497]

Quote

Flaring is all about transitioning from laminar flow to turbulent flow - over the top skin.
During the "turf surf" portion, you try to maintain laminar flow over the top skin, trying to extract every last ounce of lift from your forward momentum.

I would be very surprised if canopies ever experience true laminar flow.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[riggerrob 643]

Maths question: If I am landing into a 20kt wind and keep flaring until my canopy stalls, how fast will I be running backwards when my feet touch the ground?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That depends upon your ground speed before you stated to flare.

Hint: POPS rarely jump in 20 knot winds .... something about having already been dragged a few times in 20 knot winds.
It is far more entertaining to watch the young guys get dragged by 20 knot winds!

[jakee 1,497]

Quote

It is far more entertaining to watch the young guys get dragged by 20 knot winds!

I have never yet been dragged in 20kt winds, due in no small part to the fact that I do not flare my canopy to anything approaching the stall point in such conditions.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pchapman 279]

I also don't like the concept of "flaring the same in different conditions" idea UNLESS it is presented as applying only to a certain set of conditions.

If I'm flying a big student or accuracy canopy in strong winds and coming straight down, I certainly don't flare 'like normal'! Only a sharp, short flare is needed to remove most of the vertical speed , without reducing forward speed through the air much, which would throw me backwards on the ground.

The "flaring the same" concept only has a hope of working if the wind speed is significantly less than canopy speed. I'm guessing that the concept is meant for jumpers who get spooked by ground rush when they are coming in faster either due to low winds or a recent canopy downsize. One still has to remove one's vertical speed and reduce the horizontal ground speed as much as possible before touching down. Use the full flare capability of the parachute right down to touchdown. Just because the ground is whizzing by faster than one is used to, one shouldn't start braking higher than normal, or yanking the brakes down faster than normal.

Heck, it even applies if one is on a small crossbraced canopy and does a downwind swoop when one isn't used to it. Any scary extra ground speed has to be ignored while one concentrates on a good flare. (Although the way one chooses to touch down, like a sliding weight transfer, may vary from a normal landing.)