DJL 235 #26 October 9, 2002 I don't think there should be air marshalls at all. There's nothing one (unarmed) person could do that the 5 (at least, per flight) physically fit passengers couldn't do. I think the individual and the program just adds to the cost of air fare. Do air marshalls carry guns? I said it earlier and I agree with what Chris said, that... Quote You don't open the door for anything, anytime. You land. That's it. No matter what blood curtling screems you hear you DO NOT open the door -Doug"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #27 October 9, 2002 QuoteDo air marshalls carry guns Yeah, that's kinda the point. As for getting weapons onto a plane...ever hear of a MadDog Frequent Flier Knife or a CIA Letter Opener? There are many ways to still get weapons onto an aircraft, very large and deadly weapons.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bill2 0 #28 October 9, 2002 Great answers to some of the myths curculating around about why pilots shouldn't have guns in the cockpit. Lots of people think air marshals are on every flight, it's more like about 1% since the US has up to 35000 commercial flights per day. Also don't forget, the option to not having the pilots armed as a last defense is having an F-16 shoot the plane down to prevent it being used as a missle. Think about that the next time you say pilots having guns are a bad thing and won't work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #29 October 9, 2002 QuoteI don't think there should be air marshalls at all. There's nothing one (unarmed) person could do that the 5 (at least, per flight) physically fit passengers couldn't do. I think the individual and the program just adds to the cost of air fare. Do air marshalls carry guns? Federal Air Marshalls do carry guns. What can they do that five physically fit passengers couldn't do? Well, Air Marshalls are trained at close quarters pistol marksmanship. Their "Hogan's Alley" is the interior of aircraft. They know when and where to shoot to end the situation.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #30 October 9, 2002 Quote Do air marshalls carry guns? Uuummm..yes. They also have the highest standards of any Federal Law Enforcement officer for fire arms qualification. For "Full Performance" you must be able to negotiate a "Pop-up" range and put all your rounds in a 6 in by 2 in strip in the middle of the target. That's some shit hot shootin Tex. BTW...there's NEVER just one. Quote There's nothing one (unarmed) person could do that the 5 (at least, per flight) physically fit passengers couldn't do So...if a bunch of passengers rush a hijacker with a bomb what do think will happen? If an Air Marshall puts one round in the hijackers forehead and renders the device "safe" I think you'll have a much better outcome. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #31 October 9, 2002 Quotemust be able to negotiate a "Pop-up" range That's a funny mental image. Up pops a nun...no don't shoot. Cowboy hat...safe. Turban...um, um...+ Kalishnakov = BANG!! So they have guns... I think that's fine and I trust their abilities. I'm looking at Dulles airport through my office window right now and have flown out of there and Reagan a few times over the last year. I still think that security is a joke even though I get searched half the time I come through. So a random few from the flight get searched and air marshalls are on a random few airplanes (probably more going into D.C.) It's been shown that people are still able to sneak guns and knives (I'm not sure about explosives) onto the planes. So what do you think of this: I still don't think an armed air marshall will be able to raise his gun and shoot before that hijacker has a chance to light off a few rounds or press that trigger to the bomb...unless that hijacker is standing in the middle of the plane with his back to potential marshalls. So that leaves gun play as a stalemate considering the hijacker has the upper hand with surprise because they decide when and how the hijack will occur. Also, there's USUALLY not just one hijacker... There is the situation with Rasheem with a sharpened toothbursh handle in the neck of some kid. The marshall pulls his gun and probably gets the guy before he can stick the kid. I still see it as a stalemate or possible provocation for the hijackers to start shooting or blowing up things if an armed marshall is aboard. And stalemate, etc. is exactly what will happened with no air marshalls and double-secret explosion proof doors...pilots land, etc. -Doug"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #32 October 9, 2002 Ok, so one person dies, or 2 people die, but then the terrorist asshole is killed and the rest of the plane is saved. Maybe a whole lot more people, depending on what the asshole wanted to do with the plane. It sucks, but the outcome would outway those deaths, better then nothing, ya know?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #33 October 9, 2002 QuoteI still see it as a stalemate or possible provocation for the hijackers to start shooting or blowing up things if an armed marshall is aboard Well...lets remember one thing. It's not like the hijacker nor anyone else on board will know who the Marshalls are. They retain the initiative. The hijacker...if he has an objective other than just a suicide mission will try to take control of the plane. The Air Marshalls can wait until they have a chance to get the drop on the hijacker. Unless someone is being killed...they have nothing but time. QuoteAlso, there's USUALLY not just one hijacker... Not just one Air Marshall either. Depending on the type of aircraft there may be several. Never less than two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #34 October 9, 2002 I personally know a pilot who did exactly that. Please remember that pilots carried guns on planes routinely until very recently. Also, a taser is not an effective tool for CQB. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #35 October 9, 2002 If they have a bomb and it goes off then the plane goes down. (If the bomb is big enough.) If the hijackers are standing there outside of a locked, bullet proof, cabin door and are not provoked to make immediate action then they're left to either destroy the plane or deal with whatever authorities on the ground. At least they're given that option. If they have guns and a fire fight ensues: Sounds like the best case for Air Marshalls...A few innocents go down as long as the Air Marshalls win the day. I find it unlikely that hijackers could get a fully armed group aboard the plane. After 5 Arabs in a row go through the metal detectors claiming they have a penis ring, I think the airline would suspect something. Edit: If they're unprovoked then either they kill everyone (has never happened, but then again 9/11 had never happened) or they land with the plane and deal with the authorities on the ground. -Doug"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #36 October 9, 2002 "Well...when the entire country is screaming that they want FAM's on planes NOW what do you expect. It's kind of hard to build a highly professional force over night." I remember a sign that once said, "I don't work as hard as everyone else around here, I get it right the first time." - of course this mentality never did apply to the US Gov't. They have a process in place for other departments that included a decent psychological screening, when asked how this Marshall managed to slip through, the gov't replied that they felt the screening in place for the FAM program was adequate and did not require changing - it was that response that scared me - it wouldn't have been so bad if they went, 'Due to the newness of the system and the rush to staff as many aircraft as possible with Marshalls, a few slipped through that shouldn't have.', sadly they answered quite the opposite. "Uuummm...what good does a weapon do in a lock box? You might as well just have the box. " The pilots are not law enforcement - if they require a defensive weapon on thier hip due to a significant risk of an armed standoff - we need to rethink how we approach airline security, and at that point, might as well give everyone guns. The firearm should be in the cockpit, but not on the pilot nor accesible by anyone but said pilot. Personally, I'm not too worried about another aircraft hijacking, innovation is the key to continued successful terror - if you keep doing the same thing over and over, people harden to it - I'm more worried about toxin laden beef in McDonalds Big'N'Tasty or some nut exposing himself to Ebola/Smallpox/whatever and walking through the main terminal at JFK resulting in the spread the virus all over the country or a group of fanatics deciding to copycat the DC area killings in each of the major US cities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #37 October 9, 2002 Quotesome nut exposing himself to Ebola/Smallpox/whatever and walking through the main terminal at JFK resulting in the spread the virus all over the country or a group of fanatics deciding to copycat the DC area killings in each of the major US cities. Yet another Tom Clancey plot line (sort of, the book was a little different, but similar idea).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #38 October 9, 2002 Yeah, we should get Clancy to retire, and stop giving them ideas, eh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #39 October 9, 2002 QuoteThey have a process in place for other departments that included a decent psychological screening, when asked how this Marshall managed to slip through, the gov't replied that they felt the screening in place for the FAM program was adequate and did not require changing OK....Do you know what sort of psychological test they are required to take? It's the exact same FAA psych exam given to pilots, Air traffic controllers, and a host of other employees. Why change it for Air Marshalls? It's not unlike MANY other psych exams out there. QuoteI'm not too worried about another aircraft hijacking, innovation is the key to continued successful terror I see where you are coming from but airplane hijacking has been a pretty damn successful business over the last 40 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #40 October 9, 2002 OK, I am licensed to carry a gun in California. Beat that! I'm highly trained, having completed the basic, intermediate, and advanced tactical pistol courses at Gunsite in Arizona. I did the police training too, for over a decade, but that is mostly marksmanship, not tactical decision training. Virtually all you people could do that too. I could never quite figure out why so many people want cops to be armed, but want to forbid joanie-citizen to be able to carry. The what-if scenarios always end up with people lobbing hand grenades or suitcase nukes. You're just hosed if that happens, plain and simple. On September 11, 2001 some bad guys slashed some nice stewardesses necks open and showered the interior of the aircraft with their hot copper-smelling human blood. Most folks went into shock and obeyed. If you've ever been unfortunate to see an open carotid or femoral artery you know what I'm talking about. Think kitchen sink rinse thingie on full blast, and think hot. It also has a smell that wakes something up in the base of your brain. It's the smell of childbirth, but bad. A bunch of guns at that point would not have been a bad thing. Since they caught us with that slashing trick once, it will never happen again. Yes, people will risk injury rather than risk death. The really tough thing about being a cop is getting ready to kill somebody every single day. The purpose of the pistol is euphemistically to"stop" a threat, but realistically it's to kill a human. Putting the pistol on and saying "OK, I'm ready to kill somebody if I have to" kills something inside most people when they say it to themself several times a day everyday. Soldiers kill on the battlefield, but cops have to be ready to kill anywhere, anytime, on behalf of strangers. An armed, qualified, citizenry that can defend itself is preferable to a citizenry that farms that duty out to subcontractors. You know what I miss? The 1994 Chevy Caprice with the 5.7 engine. Cop-car driving! Yeah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #41 October 9, 2002 QuoteAn armed, qualified, citizenry that can defend itself Do you know how much violent crime in Texas dropped after they passed CCW laws? 50% No shit, they dropped 50%, same idea but with pilots, ya know?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #42 October 9, 2002 Quote Soldiers kill on the battlefield, but cops have to be ready to kill anywhere, anytime, on behalf of strangers. That's the part that wears on you. Always looking over your shoulder and wondering what's around the next corner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,071 #43 October 9, 2002 >Yeah, we should get Clancy to retire, and stop giving them ideas, eh? Or just get the higher-ups at the FBI to read his books. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #44 October 9, 2002 I kinda think that is why is latest book is one done on the Jack Ryan serious, a pre-quel to Hunt For The Red October, since the last few have been about terrorist groups he may have felt like it was too sensitive to write about right now.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #45 October 9, 2002 Quote Or just get the higher-ups at the FBI to read his books. Uuumm....Bill...Check the Kevin Mitnick post. They were the one's that put him in solitary because they thought he could launch nuclear missles from a prison pay phone.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #46 October 9, 2002 Yah, let's put a tool onboard in such a way that if you actually need it there's no way you can get at it. What you gonna do? Ask the terrorist to wait at the door while you get the lockbox undone and pull your firearm? Give me a break. If I'm packing I'm wearing it on my chest or belt. Chris Schindler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,071 #47 October 9, 2002 >Yah, let's put a tool onboard in such a way that if you actually need it >there's no way you can get at it. Hmm. Are there switch guards on any controls on the aircraft you fly? If so, does that mean that there's no way to get to the fire bottles if you need them? I think what is being proposed is something that would simply prevent really stupid problems, like dropping the thing next to the seat due to a combination of turbulence and an unsnapped holster. >Ask the terrorist to wait at the door while you get the lockbox undone > and pull your firearm? I would wager that, with a well designed lockbox, it would take less time to get the gun out than it would to get it out of a holster that was on your belt but is now wedged between the seat and the map box. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #48 October 10, 2002 OK, here's one thing a bunch of people are missing. Law Enforcement is no different than you or me. They have a different job. That's great. I'm actually considering the same career. So what exactly gives them this Jedi-like mastery of guns that none of us can have? OK, so there are FAMs. So why not enlist the help of hundreds or thousands or more of volunteers. Solves that "finding a force overnight problem." Bill, I'm surprised by you. You normally don't miss the obvious. Why would the holster be unstrapped unless the pilot's hand is on it? SO it would not end up on the floor between things. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no lock box in the world that is faster or more secure than holster against the body of a competent man. [or woman]witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #49 October 10, 2002 QuoteSo what exactly gives them this Jedi-like mastery of guns that none of us can have? Training -- lot's of training. It's expensive. Which is why they can get it and you can't.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #50 October 10, 2002 QuoteWhich is why they can get it and you can't Yes you can. Go to something like Thunder Ranch or The Texas Pistol Academy (like I did).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
