bill2 0 #76 October 10, 2002 Yes you can. Go to something like Thunder Ranch or The Texas Pistol Academy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are lots of very good courses out there for tactical pistol. The only thing you can't get as a civilian from "reputible" places is full auto instruction and a lot of the "sniper" courses. Most of those are LE only. Plenty of pistol training out there. Thunder Ranch is a good one. Blackwater Lodge in North Carolina is another. It's gonna cost you out the ass for a course of fire with 10,000 rounds though. __________________________________________ Also frontsight just outside of Las Vegas - 2 and 4 dayd course in pistol, shotgun, and rifle.as well as a number of other courses. www.frontsight.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #77 October 10, 2002 Quote "It's not a carrier landing, Maverick." ROFL! Beautiful calm contralto voice: "Stall...Warning...Stall." Bitch from hellvoice; scathingly sarcastic; "HEY D*CKHEAD! I SAID STALL! DON'T MAKE ME FLY THIS THING!" Recovery occurs... Mumbly, pouty put-upon voice: "If you'd just f*cking listen to me I wouldn't have to shout....." Talk about Bytch-slapped! The ego-fear of having that voice on your final flight-recorder would be phenomenal. Last words would stop being "Oh sh*t!" and would become "Shut up!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bill2 0 #78 October 10, 2002 Hey John, just curious since I also live in the bay area. are you licensed to carry concealed because you were a cop or is there a secret to getting a CCW? it's almost impossible to get a ccw here. thanks[email] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #79 October 10, 2002 I heard that Larsen & Brusgaard has a full face helmet in development with GPS and Pro Dytter data presented in a heads-up display on the visor. How cool could it get>?"Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #80 October 10, 2002 Yeah, retired cop. The Chief of Rio Vista was giving them out to just about anybody, but Sheriff Rupf in Contra Costa, and Plummer in Alameda, fuggedaboutit. Become a commercial pilot! That's the ticket! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bill2 0 #81 October 10, 2002 Yeah, retired cop. The Chief of Rio Vista was giving them out to just about anybody, but Sheriff Rupf in Contra Costa, and Plummer in Alameda, fuggedaboutit. _____________________________________ you're right it's impossible to get a ccw here, unless you're an important politician like Sen Diane Feinstein or state Sen Perata who are very much in favor of gun control. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #82 October 11, 2002 QuoteAlso frontsight just outside of Las Vegas - 2 and 4 dayd course in pistol, shotgun, and rifle.as well as a number of other courses. www.frontsight.com On the other hand, check out the professional courses at Sig I -think- you'll find there's a bit of difference between these courses and the real thing offered by Sig and NO the general public can't get into all of them.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefallin14 0 #83 October 11, 2002 "The ammo we can use for inflight use does not penetrate the hull. And remember, the windshields are designed to take an impact from a goose at high rates of speed. If the bullet isn't going to penetrate the hull then most likely it will not penetrate the glass."The ammo we can use for inflight use does not penetrate the hull. And remember, the windshields are designed to take an impact from a goose at high rates of speed. If the bullet isn't going to penetrate the hull then most likely it will not penetrate the glass. I like the idea of guns in the cockpit, however, I am very unsure of the bullet not being able to penetrate the hull or passenger compartment windows. Sorry to shock most people but the metal in the most areas of the fuselage is .040" thick. Try to find a bullet that will not go through that. All the other stuff around the inside is light plastics. The windows in the passenger compartment do not have to be certified like the winshield to withstand the kind of direct strike such as a bird or ice. As a person about to enter the airline industry as a pilot, I am all in favor of being able to protect myself, my crew, and my passengers at all times. But I think guns in the cockpit can cause more harm than good in some cases. I believe we need stronger doors in every way, and a way to quickly get the cabin altitude where the time of useful consciousness will be short (knock everyone out). The pilots can get their quick-don oxygen on in a few seconds. Granted, this will not work at lower altitudes but it can be a start. I am for guns in the cockpit, however I have my doubts about them being an effective tool. I guess only time, especially after the first incident they are used, will tell. Until then lets concentrate on keeping guns, knives, etc, out of the passengers hands. Bret Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #84 October 11, 2002 Hollowpoint ammo that is underloaded might help in the penetration of things. But if the pistol is an automatic, underloaded ammo will probably cause a pistol not to feed properly and jam up. I don't think most people realize what a bullet can penetrate through. Most high powered rifles will easily shoot through a 1/2 inch of steel. Of course bullet construction makes a big difference. Pistols have much less penetrating ability, but I'd hate to depend on a bullet proof vest if someone was shooting at me with a 44 magnum that was loaded hot and using solid bullets. I would think it would easily shoot through the fuselage of an airliner or most walls on the inside of a plane. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #85 October 11, 2002 QuoteI like the idea of guns in the cockpit, however, I am very unsure of the bullet not being able to penetrate the hull or passenger compartment windows. Sorry to shock most people but the metal in the most areas of the fuselage is .040" thick. Try to find a bullet that will not go through that. All the other stuff around the inside is light plastics. The windows in the passenger compartment do not have to be certified like the winshield to withstand the kind of direct strike such as a bird or ice. Bret Bret, the munition I am talking about is called a frangable (sp?) round. It is "non-jacketed". Silver tip rounds will "splatter" so to speak when it strikes something. This is the type of round that you want in an aircraft. It is also good for home defense since it will not go through two layers of dry wall. It will go through one. But not two. You wouldn't want to shoot at an intruder while pointing at your kid's room while using the standard lead slug. On an aircraft you have several layers of "stuff" before getting to the .040" skin that will start to change the round's velocity. If it hit square on without anything else impeding it there may be a small hole. If a small hole develops then you will certainly get a loud whistle as the aircraft starts to depressurize. But, the outflow valves will compensate for this. Remember, there are usually two big holes (outflow valves) open at all times. They regulate the pressurization of the aircraft. Air is circulated through the aircraft at all times. The pressurization system would sense the loss of cabin differential (pressure between inside and outside of aircraft) and close to compensate for the increased outflow somewhere else. I won't claim as to whether the passenger windows will hold up to these rounds or not. I do not have that much information. But the risk of some explosive decompression that most people fear is not as much of a reality with this type of munition. Remember, we are making a last ditch effort to defend the flight controls of the aircraft. There is risk by putting handguns in cockpits. But I believe these concerns have been addressed and dealt with in an acceptable fashion. Also, hitting a passenger window will be a remote (not impossible) event. We will only use the gun if the cockpit door is being broken down. We will not be coming back in the passenger cabin to anything. Why reinforce the cockpit doors when you are going to just open it for them? Doesn't make sense. This is only in case of emergency. Sort of like a fire extinguisher. "In case of fire break glass." Chris Schindler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #86 October 11, 2002 It's frangeable, Chris. I shot a competition where it was required ammo, so they supplied it! Winchester was the stuff I tried. The purpose of it was that it reduces ricochet and back-splatter of the bullet fragments. It's really light in weight. A 230 grain sized bullet weighed something like 150 grains, so that when you had the appropriate amount of propellant loaded to cycle the slide, you had REALLY fast muzzle velocities. I think people get sidetracked by the technical aspects of guns and bullets and hydrostatic shock and wound channels and range drops and forget that we're just talking about poking holes. It's because is just doesn't sound all that cool to shout "Stop! Or I'll poke a hole in you!" If you miss, you'll poke a whole in whatever the pistol was aimed at when it discharged. Glock 36 Chris. Trust me, I'm an armorer. I'm also from the government and I'm here to help Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #87 October 11, 2002 Quote Glock 36 Chris. Trust me, I'm an armorer. I'm also from the government and I'm here to help Ahhhhhhhhh..... Oh, oh wait. Sorry, reflex when I hear that statement. Yep, that's what I've been looking at. DD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
