Tell a student to quit

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Meet Joe
Joe is in his sleep state.

Because I like to type as little as possible, call this SS

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Meet Joe.
Joe is in his couch potato state.

Call this CP

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Meet Joe.
Joe is in his stand-up and walking around state.

Call this SU/WA

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Meet Joe.
Joe is in his break dancing state.

Call this BD

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A day in the life of Joe goes like this.
Joe wakes up from his sleep state and then stands up to walk around. He has a Wheaties breakfast to get him into a higher energy state.

Joe drinks a Go-Fast energy drink. Joe now enters his break dancing state, full of energy.

Joe dances for several minutes and collapses into his couch potato state.

This is quantum mechanics, albeit simplified.

Ok, I understand all of that so far. Joe get energy to go to the BD stateWhat causes Joe to go from the CP state to SS? What causes Joe to go from SS to SU/WA state?

Dood, you lost me with all the acronyms. I wrote the lesson plan and can't relate to your abbreviations. I need a different teacher. ;)

Do you mean
Joe gets energy to go to the break dancing state. What causes Joe to go from the couch potato state to sleep state? What causes Joe to go from sleep state to stand up/ walking around state?

The answer to the second question is his Wheaties breakfast. When Joe goes from couch potato to sleep states he 'emits' more energy, but since we have no useful purpose for that energy we just ignore it and call it part of the 'cost of doing business'.

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I posted this not because I am an instructor, or know of someone that, in my opinion, should get the TUG/TUB talk, but because I was thinking of all of the people I see these days that simply have no business at all riding a motorcycle, much less a heavy, high powered bike like the HD's.

So the first year I was in CA I had to take my MC cert at a dmv. It was raining out by the time I was called up. The lady said she could not administer the test in the rain. I said 'WTF?! I have to ride in this back to work, why can't you give the test. I'll find you an umbrella.'
Umbrella found and then the lady says I have to 'look at' the signals when I turn them on or off. I again go on with the 'WTF?! attitude'.
I ended up passing the test, but it was because the lady realized how little she knew about MC riding.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[kallend 2,063]

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Can everyone learn Quantum Physics?

I have been teaching quantum physics for more than 30 years. While some apparently unlikely students had little trouble with it, my experience leads me to believe that there are people who will never get it no matter how hard they try and no matter who teaches or tutors them.

Not if they are trying to teach them without the proper foundations

Well, the people I get to see have already passed calculus, diff-eq, and three semesters of classical physics. Those who don't make it through calculus don't even make it into the course, and there are plenty of those. They become traffic engineers or go into military intelligence.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Squeak 17]

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"NO ONE is UNTEACHABLE"

Dead wrong statement. To take it to the extreme the braindead and comatose are unteachable by virtue of the fact that they have no self-awareness and/or brain function.
Do you really think you could teach my cousin to skydive??? He has moderate Down's Syndrome by the way, so that might be a problem. He can't drive so I am guessing skydiving might be unteachable to him no matter how determined he might be to learn it.
Bottom line is there are some people who simply cannot grasp some concepts. I work with plenty of them, and have seen more than a few try to learn to skydive and fail (fortunately skydiving seems to have a failsafe where those individuals realize they are in over their heads before they bounce or kill someone else).

OK I'm going to assume that you either can/t read or you chose to ignore anything other than those 4 words.
I suggest you go back the RE-read what is typed then try to make an educated comment. Because what you just typed shows a fair ammount of ignorance

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[mnskydiver688 0]

Perhaps using less definitive language would help. Instead of no one use very few and instead of anyone use vast majority.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[sartre 0]

Oh for pete's sake people, come on!! No one here, certainly not Squeak, is saying everyone can be taught to be equally skilled at all things.

But to say there are some who simply cannot be taught to get any better at something, that is just so sad. Anyone of sound mind (or at least sound short term memory) can improve at anything they do, given enough practice, the right tools, the right attitude, the right teacher. Not everyone is going to pick up things as quickly nor become as skilled as everyone else. But they can IMPROVE.

I feel sorry for people who don't have enough faith in themselves or other people to understand that concept.

[denete 3]

For what it is worth, many people who get to the point where they should "get the talk" in learning an advancement-based skill already know that they aren't advancing as they should be (especially with a program like the ISP laid out in front of them). If they didn't see it coming (the talk), I would be worried about their self-awareness. At the least you should hear something like "Do most students have to repeat their AFF-1 5 times"?

Do most students ask you guys, "Hey, am I doing alright" during the course of their learning?

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[mnskydiver688 0]

How long do you let a student who completely loses altitude awareness practice pulling at the right altitude instead of 1500 ft or low enough for the cypres to fire?

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[sartre 0]

Hey I'm not arguing the point that every person should be allowed to put their lives in danger while they practice getting the hang of skydiving. I'm arguing that every person IS teachable to some extent, can make improvements given the right tools and effort.

Should they be allowed out the door to endanger their lives? NO. But there are things, and granted, it could take a long time, but there are things that can be worked on in a safe enviroment to more adequately prepare them for a safe skydive.

Or whatever else it is they're attempting to learn. I'll never be a rocket scientist, and no, I will never have a high enough IQ. But I could definately improve my understanding of certain aspects of rocket science.

[mnskydiver688 0]

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Should they be allowed out the door to endanger their lives? NO.

That is the point we are arguing. When does an instructor no longer allow a student out the door? Say the instructor does more ground training and drills and then the instructor believes the student is prepared to try it again and the student does the same thing again? How many different instructors does it take? How many alternative means are to be explored? Ultimately no safe environment will truely parallel jumping out of a plane. Wind tunnel included. So how many attempts and how many lapses in crucial judgment are allowed? As long as it takes could mean until tragedy.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[sartre 0]

But you see, that's where you're wrong. NO ONE is saying anyone should be allowed out the door if they are so unsafe as to be endangering their or others' lives. People are not reading and COMPREHENDING what is being said by those that take a stance that everyone is teachable to some degree.

[mnskydiver688 0]

Is it ok for an instructor or a group of instructors to tell a student they should not continue skydiving or in kinder terms tell them they are not cut out for it?

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[MakeItHappen 15]

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But you see, that's where you're wrong. NO ONE is saying anyone should be allowed out the door if they are so unsafe as to be endangering their or others' lives. People are not reading and COMPREHENDING what is being said by those that take a stance that everyone is teachable to some degree.

That is precisely the point.

But what I see also on this thread is some people have a 'You cannot ever be a skydiver' reaction to Mr. or Ms. Dufus.

I don't want the 'dufus' person out on a jump. But I would not say to them that they can never be a skydiver. It's up to them to get out of the dufus box.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Is it ok for an instructor or a group of instructors to tell a student they should not continue skydiving or in kinder terms tell them they are not cut out for it?

No.

You do not have that right to do that no matter how nicely you put it.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[sartre 0]

I think a more accurate statement is that WE don't feel you should continue. We have not found a way to help you become safe enough in the air not to kill yourself, and we would be doing you a disservice to encourage you to continue training with us. Then let the person know what things need to change in order for progress to begin again: you need to work on being calm under pressure, or sequencing, or common sense stuff. Then it's on them to go find a way to improve their deficits off of the dropzone if they truly want to go on to become skydivers.

Again, I would really love to see a direct quote where anyone is defending the right of a person to continue to be unsafe in the air. We are trying to point out that it is completely wrong to point blank say there is no hope for some people. They can improve; will their improvements be enough to make them a safe skydiver? That is another question entirely. Is it the instructor's job in every instance to fix the deficit? Not every instructor can. But someone can. In every case. If not fix, improve.

OK I've said the same thing about six different ways. Let's see how many ways my words can be twisted and misinterpreted again. **sigh**

Sometimes I think people are more interested in 'winning' an argument than actually coming to any understanding of other's viewpoints.

[mnskydiver688 0]

I don't see this as an argument. I see this as a healthy discussion on a topic that has many different view points and many different suggestions. Also, I wasn't trying to twist your words.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[sartre 0]

A healthy discussion requires understanding what the other person is and is not saying.

I finally posted to this thread because people (not saying just you, I'd have to go review who exactly have been guilty in this thread) ARE twisting words or ignoring parts of posts and fixating on a phrase OUT OF CONTEXT. It's just ridiculous and in no way constitutes a healthy discussion.

[dorbie 0]

There was an older woman on the FJC I took. Whenever the instructor threw a question back to her she'd git it wrong or kinda fake it (difficult to describe), it was obvious that she was not absorbing the material.

She'd been on tandem jumps before and after the course our instructor just gently suggested that she stick with those for now.

I remember thinking as a student on the course that she might kill herself and I was relieved the instructor did what he did.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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I remember thinking as a student on the course that she might kill herself and I was relieved the instructor did what he did.

When I was doing my student freefall progression in the 1980's (under the static line system), there was a fellow student at about the same point in his training, also doing freefalls. He had a malfunction and seemed to freeze, and simply waited until his AAD fired, which fortunately it did. After the jump he seemed rather unaware of what had happened and seemed at a loss to explain what had transpired on the jump or the reasons for his inaction.

Although I wasn't an instructor--then or now--I was a peer and therefore certainly watched closely what was happening with other students at a similar point. I remember thinking, after this jump, that he might kill himself and was rather mortified when he continued jumping.

Imagine my surprise, then, when I logged on to these forums for the first time a few days ago and discovered (without naming names) that this person now has over 11,000 jumps and is considered one of the best skydivers in the world.

Again, I'm a student myself--not an instructor--so my ability to evaluate these things is limited but it seems to me that it just goes to show you it is very hard to evaluate how someone will turn out based on a scary performance on an early jump.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[sartre 0]

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There was an older woman on the FJC I took. Whenever the instructor threw a question back to her she'd git it wrong or kinda fake it (difficult to describe), it was obvious that she was not absorbing the material.

She'd been on tandem jumps before and after the course our instructor just gently suggested that she stick with those for now.

I remember thinking as a student on the course that she might kill herself and I was relieved the instructor did what he did.

So she needed to be spending more time off dz going over her SIM. Doesn't mean she couldn't become proficient. Perhaps just not in the time line others found appropriate. See the post above mine for an excellent example.

FWIW, I had test anxiety pretty badly, so when I was called upon to answer questions, I froze up. And my landings during AFF were horrible, and I was lucky not to hurt myself more seriously. I'm still a 37 jump newbie, but I have had altimeter failure, contacts fall out during free fall, line twists, off landings, crazy swoopers screaming past me....and I have been able to remain calm and handle what's been thrown at me. Thank God the people at the school in Eloy continued to encourage me and looked at alternate ways of helping me improve. I wasn't the easiest student to coach, yet they never even thought of giving up on me.

[strop45 0]

Well the discussion may not be 'healthly' but it has been interesting. IMO expecting skydivers to actually listen and understand each other is going a bit far...

One other aspect is that being an 'easy' student doesn't necessarily make you safe, nor does being a more 'difficult' student automatically make you a danger to yourself and those around you.

I think that key is self-awareness and understanding your limitations.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[AFFI 0]

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Is it ok for an instructor or a group of instructors to tell a student they should not continue skydiving or in kinder terms tell them they are not cut out for it?

No.

You do not have that right to do that no matter how nicely you put it.

I disagree…

Here have been 2 individuals so far that I was seriously concerned about when it came to handling the various life threatening aspects of skydiving.

Both instances ended not as fatalities but life changing injuries sustained after landings where routine emergency procedures, had they been carried out as trained resulted in very serious injuries and life flight rides got them to the life saving personal.

One badly broken back the first jump after acquisition of their A License and the other only a few months after that resulted in multiple extremely serious injuries.

I believe that it is a solo freefall instructors duty not only to provide the best training they are able, but also to recognize and advise when they feel that someone is a danger to themselves (and others) due to their inability to function under stress.

Since that is a difficult call to make it is imperative that other members of the instructional staff are consulted in private meetings and have other instructors assist in making such evaluations.

Regardless of the level of intellect, not everyone is cut out for skydiving, and if we allow an individual to progress in the sport that clearly should not be, then we as instructors are doing a disservice to that individual and the skydiving community as a whole.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[damion75 0]

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A case in point, back when I was doing AFF, was the guy who suffered sensory overload on every jump and went foetal. After 5 x AFF L1 doing this, he got the talk. Nothing to do with the instruction - his brain just couldn't cope. This may have saved his life - so was it wrong?

So what you are telling me is that there is no way no how that someone could have helped him deal with his sensory overload. That it didnt matter that he have have been able to go aw3ay and get the required assistance, over come his problem then come back and try again.
Well all i can say is I"m glad you were not one of my teachers

So you'll keep sending this guy up, knowing as an instructor (even though he may not as a student) that every time you are risking not being able to stay on him and deploying for him, and every time he risks ending up tangled in his AAD deployed reserve as he goes through 750ft?

I think there comes a point when trying to get an unsuitable student through a skydiving training package is more about the instructors ego (I can get anyone through) than it is about benefitting the student.

This is not Quantum Physics, this really is life or death. I don't think that you can treat them the same way.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[sartre 0]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. YOU need to learn how to read. Squeak actually said (and YOU quoted) the person could go away somewhere else to get the training they need to deal with the stress....where did he say keep sending the person up until he hurts himself?

Learn how to debate or stop making such poor attempts at it.

[Squeak 17]

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This is exactly what I'm talking about. YOU need to learn how to read. Squeak actually said (and YOU quoted) the person could go away somewhere else to get the training they need to deal with the stress....where did he say keep sending the person up until he hurts himself?

Learn how to debate or stop making such poor attempts at it.

Thank you Sartre, that saves me from trying to talk to people who seem to have fewer comprehension skills than the kids i teach
Plus your typing is way better than mine

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[riggerrob 643]

I think there comes a point when trying to get an unsuitable student through a skydiving training package is more about the instructors ego (I can get anyone through)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed!
I spent three hours - with a dull axe - getting that student's canopy out of a tree.

Oh!
And the reserve got ripped so badly that it had to return to the factory for repairs.
Did the school turn a profit on that jump?