Near incident low opening AAD fire

[Fullonmother 0]

Hi - my tracking is crap as a newly qualified cat 8 diver. So much so that I tracked away from m y FS coach at 4,000 and after 5-7 secs was at around 1500. Obviously I couldn't check my altitude during the track and on opening the canopy I noticed I was down to 1200 ish.
Got back to packing shed and recieved a gentle chat about altitude awareness and how dangerous this had been. I had been aware of my altitude - but the danger was more to do wih my tracking technique. If my AAD had deployed - (I have a dual cutaway system as well) would this have dumped the main at the same time deploying the reserve ? And if I had two canopies up - how dangerous is it ? I am inexperienced jumper - but I would have know to use the main toggles to steer etc. Thanks in advance

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I tracked away from m y FS coach at 4,000 and after 5-7 secs was at around 1500.

You should lose about 1000 feet for every 6 seconds on your belly, less in a track. No way did you burn up 2500 feet in 5-7 seconds. Either you started your track lower, or tracked longer than 5-7 seconds.

Did you see 4,000 feet on your altimeter, wave, then turn, stop the turn, then track?

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I had been aware of my altitude - but the danger was more to do wih my tracking technique.

Unless you were in a vertical dive, the problem is more with altitude awareness than tracking.

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If my AAD had deployed - (I have a dual cutaway system as well) would this have dumped the main at the same time deploying the reserve ?

If your AAD fired, it would have launched your reserve pilot chute and done nothing to your main.

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And if I had two canopies up - how dangerous is it ?

It can be n big deal, or it can kill you or anything in between.

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but I would have know to use the main toggles to steer etc.

I disagree with releasing the brakes on your main or reserve in a 2-out situation. If you have a stable bi-plane or side-by-side, why change anything? Why allow the main to accelerate/go to full-flight?

I recommend you sit down with an Instructor and have them go over your gear with you so you completely understand how everything works and revisit how to deal with a 2-out situation. Also discuss with them this skydive and altitude awareness and tracking technique. Remember, the goal of tracking is not speed, but the most horizontal movement for the least vertical movement.

Derek

[Fullonmother 0]

OK mate thanks for that - what I was saying about my tracking is that it probably was more like a vertical dive than a track - would this not have explained the large loss of altitiude ?

I will do as you suggest and chat through this with my instructor

[NeedToJump 0]

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what I was saying about my tracking is that it probably was more like a vertical dive than a track - would this not have explained the large loss of altitiude ?

There is no way that the large loss of altitude was due to you being a vertical dive. At least there's no way that you went 2500 feet in 5-7 seconds. 2500 feet in 5 seconds means you were averaging 340mi/h or 544km/h. According to speedskydiving.com, the world speed skydiving record is 502km/h. To go through 2500 feet in 10 seconds means you would be averaging 170mi/h or 272km/h which is still extremely unlikely.

In order to have your average vertical speed anywhere near these speeds, you would have reach a maximum speed much higher since you are starting on your belly around 120ish.

It is much more likely that you lost altitude awareness or were in the track for longer than you thought. My guess would be that you started tracking lower than 4000 feet and tracked for around 10-15 seconds.

As Hooknswoop said, sit down and talk with your instructors.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I am currently working on improving my crappy track.
When I was breaking off to track I felt like I had to frequently come out of my track to check my altimeter. I'm doing solo tracking dives until I get it. It was sugested to me to wear a chest mounted altimeter. This way you can more easily check your altitude while remaining in a track. Although I end still checking my wrist out of habit, this might be helpful to you.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[OSOK 0]

Learn to check your altimeter on your wrist while tracking... you're not always going to have a chest-mounted altimeter. It's not that hard to do. Can you tell us what you're doing on your solo tracking dives?

[airtwardo 7]

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Learn to check your altimeter on your wrist while tracking... you're not always going to have a chest-mounted altimeter. It's not that hard to do. Can you tell us what you're doing on your solo tracking dives?

Or...you can always look at the planet!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ms.sofaking 0]

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Learn to check your altimeter on your wrist while tracking... you're not always going to have a chest-mounted altimeter. It's not that hard to do. Can you tell us what you're doing on your solo tracking dives?

I'm just trying to work on getting lift and maintaining my heading.It seems like I can do one or the other. It's really the only skill I want to get down really well before I move onto other stuff.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Why don't you make becoming a crack tracker a short and intermediate goal. If have completed your cat 8 there is nothing that says that you cannot devote the next five or ten jumps to nothing but tracking. Get a coach to help set up your program. You need video on some, but not all, depending on your budget, of the jumps. With a little feedback you will be surprised how fast you improve. After this program make sure you return to it and schedule tracking dives periodically so you continue to improve.
Heres the hot hint: If there is a wing suit jumper on your DZ he may be the best guy to coach you and probably the most enthusiastic; Good tracking skills are sine qua none to the bird people, but be careful it's like religion to these folks, they can be like the Hare Krishna.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

That sounds great, but slow down. I am from a small cesna DZ. Wow, talking about budgeting coaching dives and extra for video is foreign to me.
I don't believe anyone at our DZ charges for that. But many of our coaches are instructors and busy with AFF. No wingsuits at my DZ. I'd love to gain the skills to fly a wingsuit.
Thanks for the warning about the bird people. I'll remember this if I ever meet one.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Well, you have to work with what you have. Paying for at least one video of you tracking will do you a world of good. There is nothing to translate the theoretical to the practical like looking at yourself doing it.
regardless you can still make the decision that you are going to get beter by practicing until you improve and do so not just at the end of the skydive but by tracking for the whole thing.
Tracking dives are also very fun BTW.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I think I'll take your advice on the video. It probably would help. It only took watching myself one time for me to get forward movement. But lucky me. Our wonderful coaches don't charge for that! I love my little DZ!We might only go to 9500 in 20 minutes, but we all help each other out!

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[NickDG 23]

>>Obviously I couldn't check my altitude during the track
Until you develope a "clock" in your head you should wear your altimeter on your chest - not your hand . . .

NickD BASE 194

[towerrat 0]

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Or...you can always look at the planet!


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hey, there's a novel idea...... it amazes me when whenever this comes up in conversation around the dz. My altimeters are just a guide, they can stop working at any time. It's always a good idea to know how big stuff should be around pull time. I know it takes a little time to get used to, but we really need to be paying attention out there. The dirt don't move.......

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[dkavour 0]

Buy an audible altimeter!

[stratostar 5]

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Buy an audible altimeter!

you gizmo dependant kids of the new school classes. pay attention to the old farts advice kid......

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Or...you can always look at the planet! ***

And the well informed youth of today.....

hey, there's a novel idea...... it amazes me when whenever this comes up in conversation around the dz. My altimeters are just a guide, they can stop working at any time. It's always a good idea to know how big stuff should be around pull time. I know it takes a little time to get used to, but we really need to be paying attention out there. The dirt don't move....... ***

Yea who would have thunk it, falling out of the blue
umbrella and into the green bowl, starts around 3 grand and if you can't see the big ass planet and need some beeping in your ear to tell ya, it might be a good idea to take up golf or at least turn off your AAD!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[strop45 0]

It took me quite a few jumps before I could judge altitude by just looking (even with instructors being tough on CoAs).

On the other hand, even on the first jump I could count and at 5 seconds for 1000', it isn't too tricky to work out where you are, especially starting from a known break-off height.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[pinkfairy 0]

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And if I had two canopies up - how dangerous is it ? I am inexperienced jumper - but I would have know to use the main toggles to steer etc. Thanks in advance

Well, I have talked to a man who broke both his legs because of a downplane configuration at low altitude with two canopies. And some years back at my DZ, a student went in under a main/reserve entanglement caused by simultaneous deployment of main and reserve (student pulled main at the same time as the AAD fired). So it's pretty bad.

How do you keep track of the time when you track? Do you count seconds? I do, and lose about 1000' in a 5 seconds track, with some altitude to spare to flat out and do my wave off. Didn't you notice the earth getting bigger? At 1500' it's pretty big.

Pulling at 1500 is not only a problem because of AAD fires. You have no time to deal with malfunctions if you're open at 1000. And malfunctions happen.

Have fun, stay safe!

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[iamsam 0]

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Buy an audible altimeter!

If you're losing altitude awareness DON'T buy an audible until you've fixed this problem.

complete your profile

talk to your etcetc

but what do I know

[stratostar 5]

Next time your doing a solo or other easy dive, take note that "falling out of the blue
umbrella and into the green bowl, starts around 3 grand" could a little higher depending on what part of the world your in.

When your at 5 grand the blue will be all around you to the horizon, as you keep going the green will start to fill more of the horizons around you, the lower you go the more green will fill the horizons.

In other words, you don't have to be looking stright down to see your getting low. As someone else posted @ 1500 ft the planet is pretty friken big.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Fullonmother 0]

As far as I worked it out - my last check of altitude was at 4K - which is what I was instructed to do before turning and tracking. After that - at my level I find it difficult to check altitude whilst tracking. This is the final stage in my mind before opening - track off - neutralise and deploy. Can you check altitude whilst tracking ? Difficult I would think. Is there any point in checking altitude immediately brefore deploying ? what's the point - you're going to deploy anyway. But as a consquence of this event, I will hone my tracking skills, I will find out how far I drop whilst tracking for 5 secs, and I will stop manouvres at 5K not 4 until I have alot more jumps under my belt.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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As far as I worked it out - my last check of altitude was at 4K - which is what I was instructed to do before turning and tracking.

You didn't start tracking at 4k, you checked altitude at 4k. Then you turned, stopped, and THEN you started tracking at much less than 4k.

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Can you check altitude whilst tracking ?

AS others have mentioned, you can ALWAYS check altitude. Look at the ground. It is not a matter of if, but when, your altimeter will fail.

Derek

[Scoop 0]

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I will hone my tracking skills, I will find out how far I drop whilst tracking for 5 secs, and I will stop manouvres at 5K not 4 until I have alot more jumps under my belt.

Sounds like a good plan. End of play time for me is 5.5k, then I track till 4k, fall stable again and deploy at 3.5k. Even when jumping on my own I do this as its good practice and as I'm trying some new stuff I like to ensure I'm out of harms way of other groups incase I've drifted in freefall

[stratostar 5]

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Can you check altitude whilst tracking ?

Yes I can, and in more then one way.

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Difficult I would think.

Not that hard to do even with a wrist mount dial, or has been pointed out many times already, by using my eyes to look at the big ass planet getting bigger.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[pinkfairy 0]

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Is there any point in checking altitude immediately brefore deploying ? what's the point - you're going to deploy anyway.

If you said that you were going to deploy at 3000', you don't want to mistakenly deploy at, say 4000', when people behind you are still in freefall. So, yes, there is a point.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?