christoofar 0 #51 October 1, 2002 BTW: I'm a fiscal conservative. Yes, I do believe in the philosophy "You cannot tax yourself into prosperity." But likewise, the reverse is also true! You cannot tax-cut yourself into prosperity. Boil down government's role in the economy and you see that it's only a mechanism that redistributes wealth or lack of wealth in the economy. If we really want to be happy, we need to get the economy going again, and not with some fiscal taxing voodoo... but with serious capital spending and investment, the way we've ALWAYS done it! If we don't spend money on buildings, machinery, labor, we can't produce much. If we're focused on cutting back, laying off, receding... then consumers will not spend because they are afraid of losing their incomes and it just continues a vicious cycle until someone breaks the chain and attitudes become more positive. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #52 October 1, 2002 QuoteTED FOR PRESIDENT I thought after his former employer, we'd all want him to have a good job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #53 October 1, 2002 A few examples of how the Flat Tax shifts the Tax Burden. 1. Joe CEO Makes 1,000,0000 a year. Currently he is Taxed at 38% on Taxable Income Plus 33% on any Capitol Gains (With That much money, he is making capitol gains). Total federal Tax Burden after Loopholes and exemptions will be about 300K. Under a Flat Tax, He pay 15% of what he consumes. Probably not more than 100K to 200K per year total spent on consumables (rest is saved or invested). His Tax Burden is now 15 to 30 K per year. (10% of what it was at most) 2. Joe Middle Class Makes 60K per year After Loopholes, Deductions and Charity Contributions, his taxable income is 45K @23% for roughly 10K per year. Under Flat Tax: He Consumes 45K per year of income, his Tax is 6500. 2. Jane Single Mom Makes 26K per year (most of which goes for child care so she can work). After she files exemptions and EIC (Earned Income Credit) she actually gets back 1K more than she paid in. Federal Tax burden = None Under Flat Tax: She now has to pay (26K x 15%) $3900 per year in Taxes because you can bet she will be Consuming 100% of her income just to get by. The people with the least end up paying more while the people with most end up paying less. Thanatos340 "Fast Cars, Easy Women and Good Beer!! Life is too short for anything less!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #54 October 1, 2002 I wasn't going to go into the people drawing EIC cuz that's a WHOLE other can of worms. Especially the people on EIC who are also drawing Medicaid, WIC, AFDC, SSI and other forms of government assistance (so... is EIC just another welfare check?).... FYI, I worked @ HRB as a coder for a while; this is one debate I've spent many many many countless hours arguing over. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mujie96 0 #55 October 1, 2002 Will you legalize certain forms of herbage? Jess Just keep swimming...just keep swimming.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #56 October 1, 2002 QuoteWill you legalize certain forms of herbage? Jess Let's not tax incomes and just tax mar-i-joo-wah-nah. Mmmkay? ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nws01 0 #57 October 1, 2002 QuoteYou guys are going to think I am nuts!!! Sorry Rob, but I thought you were nuts way before this thread! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #58 October 1, 2002 I completely agree that there are MANY abuses of the system. But the EIC is a good idea. Get out and work for a living and we will help you out. It is much better than just sit at home and draw welfare. I am referring to the single parent with 1 or 2 children that could not work otherwise because of the cost of daycare. With this program, at least they can enter the workforce and develop some skill that may someday end the poverty cycle for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #59 October 1, 2002 QuoteI completely agree that there are MANY abuses of the system. But the EIC is a good idea. Get out and work for a living and we will help you out. It is much better than just sit at home and draw welfare. I am referring to the single parent with 1 or 2 children that could not work otherwise because of the cost of daycare. With this program, at least they can enter the workforce and develop some skill that may someday end the poverty cycle for them. I wish this fountain of hope were true. If I was still at HRB I could have pulled up how many individuals living in South Texas who have been claiming EIC consistently since 1987. Also it was fun watching the dependants getting bounced around from one tax return to another one year from another. The IRS's regional office in Austin watches the same shennanegans too. I guess one redeeming thing about EIC, if you've been claiming it for many years... is that you can get a RAL and obtain "some" sort of credit... altbeit they are extremely high interest loans. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #60 October 1, 2002 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TED FOR PRESIDENT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I thought after his former employer, we'd all want him to have a good job. No kidding. Plus I'm not into bopping interns and then perjuring myself about it. I don't particularly like whoring myself out to corporate interests either. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #61 October 1, 2002 Hell, even a simple mudslinging campaign would bring down your campaign for office. hehe "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #62 October 1, 2002 QuoteWill you legalize certain forms of herbage? Remember, in addition to being hands-off economically, we Libertarians are hands-off socially as well. Herb (sales taxed of course) for everyone! - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #63 October 1, 2002 The bottom line is that you must WORK to get the EIC. This should be a requirement for all assistance programs. On another Tangent: Wanna help the current system? Make Child Support Tax Deductible!! Most people do not realize that people who pay child support do not get any form of tax deduction for this. I have been Paying 19% of my Gross income to my ex for 11 years now and get no form of tax relief for this while she get the full deduction for my daughter (Which also means I dont get Head of Household or any other credit. Just good old single no dependants) The really screwed up thing is that Alimony is tax deductible and child support is not. That is just sick!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swarley 0 #64 October 1, 2002 Rhino for president.... Go for it! Think you should change your ICON as it might SCARE some of the potential supporters Steve You could convert Airforce 1 to a jump plane! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #65 October 1, 2002 QuoteThe really screwed up thing is that Alimony is tax deductible and child support is not. That is just sick!! Absolutely agree. What's even sicker is how they calculate it... based on pre-tax income. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #66 October 1, 2002 I dunno how that will fly on TV... there will be a smear campaign with deadbeat dads looking for a quick buck, etc etc. I wonder how many congressmen/women pay alimony/child support? This requires an Act to get changed... so you're talking about both dems and reps on the same side of the issue. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #67 October 1, 2002 Yes Rhino for pres!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #68 October 1, 2002 >I just got a bonus for $5,500, take home was $3,150. That is just > plane wrong. That was MY bonus for MY hard work. If I took home > $5,500 of that I would have spent it all IN THE ECONOMY. Unless you are willing to dismantle our military, our roads, air traffic control, the FAA, police etc. "keeping it all" is not an option. That money has to get to the government somehow. A sales tax is effectively a flat tax; it doesn't matter much if they take it before or after it's in your bank account, they still get it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TequilaGirl 0 #69 October 1, 2002 So Rhino you honestly plan to eliminate the Family Court system??? That is a good one.....not possible - who is going to enforce your 50/50 child support plan...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #70 October 1, 2002 >I just got a bonus for $5,500, take home was $3,150. That is just > plane wrong. So the withholding was $2,350. Depending on your taxable income at the end of the year, you will get most of that back. You could have also adjusted your Exemptions and not paid as much right now. You simply gave the Govt an Interest free loan for them to hold until the end of the year when you figure out how much you owe based on how much you made. It is always fun to walk around your office and ask others how much they paid in federal Tax last year and listen to them reply, "I didn’t pay, I actually got money back!". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #71 October 1, 2002 To go point by point: >1. Bytch slap Saddham out of office, telling the UN to get a >fucking life Does this translate to "bomb Iraq, pull out of the UN?" >2. Eliminate Taxes creating a 10% sales tax across the board You'd need a 25-30% tax at least, if you want to keep things like the military. Closer to 40% if we switch to diplomacy-by-invasion (invading Iraq alone will cost 200-500 billion, or $1000 to $2000 per person in new taxes.) >3. Make social security Opt In instead of mandentory. Interesting. Could work, if you have the stomach to let the dumb people starve. >4. Eliminate the IRS You still need it to administer the sales tax, and to prevent abuses (i.e. if you did levy that 40% sales tax I'd buy everything in Tijuana.) >5. Eliminate family court Courts interpret the law. Unless you want the bigger parent to always keep the kid you need a court to decide matters of custody, abuse etc. >6. Give the military a 20% pay raise, give teachers a 20% pay raise, > give police and fireman a 20% pay raise. OK, make that sales tax 45%. >7. Give a 20% off an environmentally friendly car courtesy of Uncle > Sam Would work well I think; we're doing something like that now, but it's much smaller ($1000 deduction for hybrids/electric/natural gas cars.) If you tied fuel efficiency into it, it might also help reduce dependence on middle eastern oil. >8. Get out of the petroleum business all together I agree. I've long thought the government should either be in or be out of the oil business. This halfway thing we have now just doesn't work. >9. Make parental alienation punishable by death Think you might need that family court back in that case, unless you want to appoint a few Judge Dredds to go around and just blow people away who have crying kids. I don't think that would go over well. >10. Take care of our own backyard more How would you do this? More environmental oversight here in the US? Less money on foreign aid? >11. Tell the airline industry to quit bitching, they shouldn't have > gotten too big for there britches to begin with So stop bailing them out? Make them pay for ATC? (which means we would too) Stop mediating in strikes? Stop using federal money to build airports? >12. Eliminate all parties such as Democrat, republican, conservative >and make it the AMERICAN party. While I think you could 'abolish' the parties, I don't think you will ever abolish people being conservative or liberal. "Teams" would form anyway. There is something very basic to the human psyche that wants to be on "the winning team." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #72 October 1, 2002 QuoteTo go point by point: Quit being so damned... rational. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TequilaGirl 0 #73 October 1, 2002 That is just wrong......I never get what they take out of my bonuses back......not even close......I am lucky to get $500 back from the Federal Government......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #74 October 1, 2002 QuoteYou'd need a 25-30% tax at least, if you want to keep things like the military. Closer to 40% if we switch to diplomacy-by-invasion Which is why creating a build-everything-into-one-nice-and-pretty tax will probably disrupt the economy temporarily. If we built in all government outlays into a single tax built into the price of consumer goods... can you imagine how much we'll have to raise tarrifs on imports so that people don't start buying 100% imported everything? What kind of backlash will we get on our exports for raising tariffs so high? What kind of other chain reactions will happen? I don't think economists, the public, and legislators have actually completely thought through the consequences of taking this kind of action and all the change that will ensue. This isn't something that can be done within a year, or five years, or ten years. It would make the switch to the Euro look like just a fashion statement. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #75 October 1, 2002 QuoteThe really screwed up thing is that Alimony is tax deductible That's the only thing that makes April bearable. For godsakes, man, don't take that away from me. It's all I got!Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
