christoofar 0 #26 October 1, 2002 Texas is the only major state that has no income tax and forbids counties and municipalities from imposing their own income taxes. A survey conducted by H&R Block in the 1980s discovered that in some households, particularly in Michigan, where there are local (city and county), state, and Federal income taxes, that the citizens there pay less of a percentage in taxes overall because other widespread taxes such as property and sales taxes are lower than in Texas. Most places in Texas that are near a large population center have enormous property taxes, or unreasonably high appraisal values placed on dwellings that counterbalance the spending local school districts and county authorities make in other states. The two worst offenders are the Harris County Appraisal District (Houston), the Bexar County Appraisal District (San Antonio). Travis County (Austin) also rapes it citizens in overappraisals that take years worth of legal wrangling to get reversed. Because of the overzealous appraising in the largest cities in Texas, population is driven to the outskirts of the city. This drives the city to overtake more propety outside its borders so it can levy tax and collect income to balance its budget. Houston is the U.S.'s biggest practitioner of this tactic. It has annexed more property in the last 30 years than any other U.S. city. Because it keeps expanding its borders, it can't afford to pay for basic city services like road repair, water main maintenance and street cleanup. So what do we do to get the books back in the black? Annex more rich peoples' homes and tax them to death! On the sales tax front: sales and use tax in Texas averages 8 1/2%, with some municipalities charging the maximum allowable amount: 9 3/4%, higher than most states. Urban Texans are paying just as much tax as any other place in the States, hands down. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #27 October 1, 2002 Go for it Rob. If you think you can do something good, you should run. Just remember to practice up high. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #28 October 1, 2002 I agree with Zennie... A flat sales tax would even things out. I just got a bonus for $5,500, take home was $3,150. That is just plane wrong. That was MY bonus for MY hard work. If I took home $5,500 of that I would have spent it all IN THE ECONOMY. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #29 October 1, 2002 QuoteA flat Tax would shift the Tax burden in this country to the lower class significantly. No it wouldn't... When the rich guy buys a $2,000,000 home he is taxed 10%, when the poor guy buys a pack of smokes he is taxed 10%. That is even and fair across the board.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #30 October 1, 2002 QuoteI just got a bonus for $5,500, take home was $3,150. That is just plane wrong. That was MY bonus for MY hard work. If I took home $5,500 of that I would have spent it all IN THE ECONOMY You could do that. If I got a bonus, I'd put it in my daughter's college fund. It would be of no value to the economy for 18 years. Or I could put in my retirement account. No value to the economy for 30-50 years. Or I could just spend it all at a dropzone in Canada. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #31 October 1, 2002 Quote think we are all in agreement on making taxation simpler and more efficient. But we differ on our predictions of what different methods of taxation would do. That's a fair assessment. That's why I like healthy debates like this one. I always learn something I didn't know or consider going into it. It forces you to think about why you believe what you believe. Quote would be much happier if the tax structure were kept the same for awhile, and the effort put into streamlining government. Having things run more efficiently and at a lower cost to taxpayers is the only way I see for reducing taxes. Then again, we could always just work on paying our UN dues or the national debt. Other than the 'keep the current tax structure the same' part, I totally agree with you. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #32 October 1, 2002 Rhino for president.... What would I do?? 1. Bytch slap Saddham out of office, telling the UN to get a fucking life 2. Eliminate Taxes creating a 10% sales tax across the board 3. Make social security Opt In instead of mandentory. 4. Eliminate the IRS 5. Eliminate family court 6. Give the military a 20% pay raise, give teachers a 20% pay raise, give police and fireman a 20% pay raise. 7. Give a 20% off an environmentally friendly car courtesy of Uncle Sam 8. Get out of the petroleum business all together 9. Make parental alienation punishable by death 10. Take care of our own backyard more 11. Tell the airline industry to quit bitching, they shouldn't have gotten too big for there britches to begin with 12. Eliminate all parties such as Democrat, republican, conservative and make it the AMERICAN party. That is just a start And if we run out of money we print more!!! Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #33 October 1, 2002 QuoteYou could do that. If I got a bonus, I'd put it in my daughter's college fund. It would be of no value to the economy for 18 years. Or I could put in my retirement account. No value to the economy for 30-50 years. Or I could just spend it all at a dropzone in Canada. That is YOUR perogative. You EARNED that money.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #34 October 1, 2002 QuoteBecause of the overzealous appraising in the largest cities in Texas, population is driven to the outskirts of the city. This drives the city to overtake more propety outside its borders so it can levy tax and collect income to balance its budget. Houston is the U.S.'s biggest practitioner of this tactic. I can vouch for this one. Sure Mayor Brown says he hasn't raised taxes. What he fails to mention is that property assesments have gone up for three straight years now. Our last one went up by almost $10,000. I have this little conspiracy theory going. I don't think it's any coincidence that major construction projects are underway/planned for I-59 and I-10... two major throughfares to the suburbs. My Oliver Stone take is that they're doing this to make the commute so miserable that everyone will want to move back inside the Beltway. We already have people buying old, dilapidated houses solely for the land it sits on. Then they build these huge houses on top of it. Landowners inside the loop are sitting on gold mines. I need to find a cheap, dumpy house inside the loop quick. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #35 October 1, 2002 QuoteI agree with Zennie... A flat sales tax would even things out. I just got a bonus for $5,500, take home was $3,150. That is just plane wrong. That was MY bonus for MY hard work. If I took home $5,500 of that I would have spent it all IN THE ECONOMY. Rhino The graduated income tax is probably not going to ever go away in our lifetime at the federal level... and most states are now too dependant on it to lose it, either. Why? The same economics that drive everything else. As a government, income taxes provide: a) an increasing source of revenue, year after year b) a consistent source of revenue, year after year c) a method for governments to encourage some behavior, and discourage others (saving vs. spending, charitable contributions, etc), because you aren't breaking a law by making your choices of vocation or how you legally acquire wealth, the tax is considered "voluntary." Depending on a flat sales tax, governments would have to change to deal with these new problems a) sales taxes don't bring in consistent revenue year after year. b) citizens will demand sales tax exemptions for certain items, which will ultimately pass. this will introduce added complexity for businesses that already must deal with complex sales and excise tax law, increasing administrative costs c) corporations easily avoid sales taxes by swapping assets and compensating loans. these entities could easily evade paying ANY tax at all! d) recent agreements like NAFTA have reduced government dependence on import/export tariffs. these tariffs would have to be reraised to substitute lost income e) individuals who reap huge amounts of income from interest earned on their capital wind up paying no tax if they choose to live outside the United States I'm not arguing for or against abolishing the income tax. I just want people to think about what they're asking for when they want what we have no go away. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #36 October 1, 2002 How can it get fixed if WE don't try?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #37 October 1, 2002 QuoteHow can it get fixed if WE don't try?? As a software programmer, I'm a staunch pragmatist. By fixed... we might fix that one anxiety... but introduce a plethora of others that might make life just as, or even more miserable than it already is. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #38 October 1, 2002 QuoteThat is YOUR perogative. You EARNED that money.. Yes. But I'm calling into question the assumption of instant trillions pumped back into the economy in equal proportion to the amount of income tax decrease. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #39 October 1, 2002 Well.. I guess you can OPT IN to pay income tax if you like.. The rest of us will take our money home if we want Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #40 October 1, 2002 QuoteThat's why I like healthy debates like this one. Agreed. QuoteOther than the 'keep the current tax structure the same' part, I totally agree with you. I see the standard way the government functions as a bigger problem than the way taxes are structured. Could the goverment (state and federal) run on 1/3 less funding with the same service? Probably. I'm not saying I love our tax structure, but I think we should fix the other problems first. And whatever we do to replace our existing tax system must be honestly, truly viable, and not just a smoke 'n mirrors political and accounting scam that will haunt our children's or grandchildren's generations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #41 October 1, 2002 QuoteAs a software programmer, I'm a staunch pragmatist. There are pragmatic software developers and renegade developers. I've always been one of the latter. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #42 October 1, 2002 QuoteWell.. I guess you can OPT IN to pay income tax if you like.. The rest of us will take our money home if we want Life isn't like that. If you want to abolish the income tax and replace it with a flat sales tax, I think you should be prepared to demand that people also give up Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. We can't afford to support those kinds of programs without the revenue that the income tax provides. Flat sales taxes aren't going to boost the economy like the pundits say it is. The two fundamental forces that drive market economics will quickly counterbalance the boost in incomes that people receive. What does that mean? Inflation. Prices for all goods overall on the whole will rise to counteract the increase in domestic spending (consumer demand), everything else being equal. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #43 October 1, 2002 Funny how a self professed non-voter thinks some sort of good will be done by running for office. Oh, and IMHO it will never happen. Hehe. "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #44 October 1, 2002 QuoteFunny how a self professed non-voter thinks some sort of good will be done by running for office. Oh, and IMHO it will never happen. Hehe. I could run for office and demand a flat tax. But when I go to an AARP meeting to get the old farts' votes they're gonna ask them hard kwest-unhs. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #45 October 1, 2002 Inflation is a function of spending power and price. With a sales tax, yes prices go up, but so does spending power. And yeah I would phase out Social Security. At least in it's current incarnation. I don't see why the current tax system is necessary to sustain Medicare and Medicaid. There's nothing inherent in an income tax system that makes it any better suited to support a particular government program than any other. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #46 October 1, 2002 If you want to increase the pay levels for the military, teachers, etc you better increase the tax percentage. What happens when the Government runs in the red? Increase the federal percentage by .5%? And then the surplus created then, what is your plan? I'm a middle class person that is looking at getting a house for the tax benifits alone. What will the incentive be for me to get a house if there is no tax break? Also I think the laws will get more complex since each company will want their product non taxed since that means they will sell more of it. Companies will be back stabing the other companies to make sure they are the oonly one in the market that is getting the non taxed benifits that will be so desperatly coveted. Also I think people want to see someone that actually votes run for office. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hagar 0 #47 October 1, 2002 QuoteRhino for president.... What would I do?? 12. Eliminate all parties such as Democrat, republican, conservative and make it the AMERICAN party. And if we run out of money we print more!!! Rhino Recyceling ideas from the junkheap of history, are we? Seriously, Russia had some very successful tax reforms recently involving flat tax here--- PCSS #10 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #48 October 1, 2002 I told you Phree!!! Print more money!! LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #49 October 1, 2002 FYI... most people get the meaning of inflation confused: inflation - A persistent increase in the level of consumer prices or a persistent decline in the purchasing power of money, caused by an increase in available currency and credit beyond the proportion of available goods and services. Cause and effect: Assume we abolish the income tax totally. Take home pay increases for wage earners, corporations no longer pay income taxes. Prices rise with the increased availability of cash, as does the added sales tax. What kind of sales tax rate would we need to keep Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and our military paid? I'm thinking something on the order of 20-25%. {also, with the immediate change in the value of the dollar... do we boost Social Security payments to compensate for its loss or let the current payments stand in their amounts and let those fixed-income people figure that mess out? how would we manage large swings in the value of the dollar... raise the sales tax even higher?} How do we keep people from avoiding not-paying the tax? How do we keep prices competitive with other countries and spending inside the United States? Where do we replace the money lost from those who keep their capital outside the U.S.? ---- What is and isn't inflation? Daily gas price changes are not inflation/deflation. But a huge upsurge in petroleum prices that directly causes all other prices to rise *IS* inflation. A change in the minimum wage is reactionary to inflation. However, prices usually increase shortly after a boost in the minimum wage, mostly to compensate the added payroll expense. This typically either amplifies inflation's effect or increases unemployment further. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slappie 9 #50 October 1, 2002 TED FOR PRESIDENT!! "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
