Disregard of warnings/groundings

[chanti 0]

There's this guy at our DZ who's always causing trouble. He's no newbie - has 2000 jumps and is a JM - so should definitely know better. He's had several warnings and has been grounded a couple of times, the longest grounding was 6 months. Some of his "minor" offences include cutting people off under canopy and landing downwind in traffic. The 6 month grounding was for an illegal jump onto a crowded beach.

Yesterday again, he swoops downwind into the HP area while other swoopers are landing into wind, only just missing another canopy. He received yet another warning, but I couldn't help wondering if this will ever stop. Consequently when I'm on the same load as him, I feel nervous even though I know he will land before me. I don't feel as if he has any concerns about his safety or the safety of his fellow jumpers.

When he gets a warning he protests loudly and always has some "explanation" for why he "was right" even though he blatantly wasn't. Do people like this ever learn, or does it involve an incident before anything happens?

What can be done?

-Chanti-

[tombuch 0]

Talk to your DZO or S&TA. If he is grounded, he should stay on the ground. If he keeps blowing it, even after coming off a grounding, he should be invited to jump someplace else. It sounds like a bad apple with a Jumpmaster rating who is modeling dangerous behavior for his students. Let you DZO/S&TA know you are scared about being in the air with this guy, and that if he continues to threaten the landing pattern you and other jumpers will take your business elsewhere. Peer pressure with support of the DZ management is often the best way to handle this kind of jumper.

Your profile lists South Africa as your home DZ. If that's where this is happening I can't offer any specific administrative action, but I will discuss how it could be handled in the United States. Here the S&TA has no authority from USPA to ground anybody, but can pull an instructional rating for a brief period and then discuss with the Regional Director who can confirm the rating suspension and follow-up with the full Board of Directors. That's a pretty rare thing to have happen. In most cases the S&TA has authority from the local DZ to ground a jumper, and that's how it's done. If the problem persists a jumper can be asked to leave the DZ, and in that case a representative of the DZ will often call surrounding DZ's to let them know what happened, so the new DZ can keep an eye on the jumper or also deny access if they so choose. In this country an illegal demo is a really big deal and if I was the S&TA I would at least discuss that with the Regional Director or USPA Director of Safety and Training, all within the context of his other landing area issues.

If the DZO/S&TA are unable to assist, ask what organizational structure you have in your country, and what your next step might be. If they won't answer that question then you could call the national office of your skydiving organization and just pick their brains about other solutions.

I'd say your first priority here is to improve the safety of the landing area, your second priority is probably to get this guy to learn, and your third priority is to be nice. Try and do all three, but really focus on the first.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[riggerrob 643]

He sounds like a crater looking for coordinates.

[popsjumper 2]

So what you are saying is that the DZO let's it continue and doesn't have the balls to put and end to it.
Sad.

On a related note:

It appears to me that the DGITs are procreating faster than Darwin is calling them home resulting in a world-wide population growth.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kkeenan 14]

Tom is right. The only way to get through to the person is through the DZO grounding him (and enforcing it) or the other jumpers refusing to jump with him. It's doubtful that the DZO will send the airplane up with only one person on it.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[skydave238 0]

Im not at all an expert of how PASA works (anyone please correct me if im incorrect), but from the little I do know:
Any diciplinary action taken (ie warning, grounding etc) in the past against this person should have been reported on PASA Form 6 and forwarded to the NSTO. So from what you've said, with this person getting multiple warnings and having been grounded by the DZ more than once, PASA should already have multiple records of this person on file.
Im sure you know where im going with this. If no-one else is going to do something about this, maby you should.

As Tom said:

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I'd say your first priority here is to improve the safety of the landing area, your second priority is probably to get this guy to learn, and your third priority is to be nice. Try and do all three, but really focus on the first.

I hope you find a way to solve this. I cant believe that someone with a JM rating is doing this!

Dave

Ready...Set...Go..!

SkydiveSwakop

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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He sounds like a crater looking for coordinates.

I'd have to agree and call me callous or uncaring, but I'd have no problem just walking by his busted up (or dead) body and just shaking my head and thinking "told you so"... I've done so in the past.

Problem is, these days, that sort can not only take themselves out, but can also take others with them... as recent incidents have shown.

I've sat around BSin' with a couple of DZOs about topics similar to this. The DZOs that stand out in my mind as "doing it right" when it comes to dealing with such things are the ones that just 86 such offenders... put them on the "leave and don't come back here forever" or the "forever list" for short and stick to it. Sure, they'll give a warning or two or three (depending on the seriousness of the infraction), but when it comes down to it, they don't play the, "You're grounded for X-number of days" game (i.e. 30-day board), it goes straight to "You're Outta Here! And Don't Come Back!"

Specifically, I recall the instance of a DZO I know dealing with a habbitual "low pull artist". He had warned the guy more then once and was having to warn him again after another low pull "stunt". Well, the warning quickly turned to argument with the offender having lots of excuses and trying to finish up with the DZO couldn't stop them from pulling low if they wanted to and the DZO saying something to the effect that they were right, they couldn't, but they could stop them from doing it at his DZ... at which time, the offender got on that DZs "forever list."

Frankly, I'd opt for that's how the DZ in quesiton here sould deal with the individual who is the topic of the OP. Obviously warnings and groundings aren't working.

[kaerodyne 0]

Chanti

Your first point of contact would be to address this direct with the jumper in question, explain your concerns etc, if he blows you off, have a chat to the Duty instructor, and if they blow you off go to the DZO, where upon if you have no response or no action is taken, write a letter to the DZO and express that as much as your enjoy jumping at that DZ and have built a good friends base etc, you will not be willing to risk your own and others safety due to one individual no one is willing to confront to put into place.

I would then get a letter to the NSTO of PASA, let him know the path you took and the results you had, in the end he is a very vigilant individual and trust me it will not go unnoticed.

The DZ is a business and in the end of the day they are there to make money, so your voice should be heard, and be willing to move to a new DZ if you have no success in getting this matter to a point of resolution.

Blue Skies
Karl

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

OK... I'll bite... What is a "DGIT"?

Dead Guy In Training?

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

OK... I'll bite... What is a "DGIT"?

Dead Guy In Training?

Got it in one!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[chanti 0]

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PASA should already have multiple records of this person on file.

The 6 month grounding was an NSTO grounding as it was a serious offence - it meant he was grounded in South Africa, and the clubs enforced it. That would definitely be on record. As for the club's warnings and groundings, I'm not so sure they would have been documented?

I get on very well with the CI who was asked by the DZO on Sunday to "talk" to the individual, which he did. I got the feeling he was tired of having to lecture him all the time. The tricky thing is, we're a small and close-knit DZ. Even if this guy is a bit of a Jack-a$$, he is still well-liked and a real charmer. I asked him why he swooped downwind in traffic and he apologised and mumbled something about not realising the wind direction (yeah, right).

What I'm saying is that firstly it will take something really big for him to be grounded (again) and me complaining about it to anyone probably won't do much good ... I'm small fry compared to him, a real noob still! If I threaten to leave I'll probably get "OK,bye"

Secondly, I love Pta - it's my home DZ, all my friends are there - why should I have to pack up and leave because some jerk is spoiling it for me?

It's such a tricky situation because it's serious enough that someone's life could be in danger next time, but also sucks to have to be the one running to the NSTO going "teacher, teacher, guess what Johnny did!"

I've tried talking to him - but as you can see talking doesn't help. He apologises and then just does it again.

There are no answers

-Chanti-

[riggerrob 643]

Yeah!
We used to have an instructor like that.
Other staff members tried telling him how much his landings scared them.
The boss tried talking to him, suspending him, yelling "If you do that again you're fired!" transferring him to another DZ, etc.
Nothing worked until he broke a spectator's arm and got fired!

[rehmwa 2]

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Yeah!
We used to have an instructor like that.
Other staff members tried telling him how much his landings scared them.
The boss tried talking to him, suspending him, yelling "If you do that again you're fired!" transferring him to another DZ, etc.
Nothing worked until he broke a spectator's arm and got fired!

so this guy willfully hurt someone

also, the "boss" failed to take action in time too

That's a lot of breakdowns - and an innocent paid for it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kkeenan 14]

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Even if this guy is a bit of a Jack-a$$, he is still well-liked and a real charmer. I asked him why he swooped downwind in traffic and he apologised and mumbled something about not realising the wind direction (yeah, right).

Gee, where have I heard this story ? Oh yeah. We used yo have a guy like this in the U. S. Very charming, very well-liked, very talented and skilled. No one grounded him, or chewed him out, and if they did, he would turn it into a joke and everyone went away remarking on what a fine upstanding individual he was.

That guy is dead now. A good friend of his is also dead. Friends of both of them have spent a lot of time and tears thinking about what they could have said or done to prevent the accident. Funny thing is, there is no shortage of the things that could have been said or done. The only problem is that No one did any of those things.

Get as many people as you can, who agree with your point of view, and go to the DZO and calmly explain that none of you will buy a single jump ticket at his place until this concern is dealt with. You may not even feel bad if this gent does himself in with his antics, but if he takes one of your friends in with him, you will hate yourself for your inaction.

Kevin Keenan
Florida, USA

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[riggerrob 643]

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Yeah!
... until he broke a spectator's arm and got fired!

so this guy willfully hurt someone

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

In his defence, the guy did not "willfully" hurt any one. He just swooped too hard, too close to a spectator - who was on the wrong side of the fence - etc.
He sure made an impression on her!
Nothing like letting your dick do your thinking for you while on final approach!

• Quote

[rehmwa 2]

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In his defence, the guy did not "willfully" hurt any one. He just swooped too hard, too close to a spectator - who was on the wrong side of the fence - etc.
He sure made an impression on her!
Nothing like letting your dick do your thinking for you while on final approach!

I disagree, his "accident" was a result of willful neglect.

We used to have a similar guy at our DZ that liked to swoop the spectators. He came very close and thought he was a great swooper. He never admitted any of his near misses. If he had hurt someone, it would have been willful in my mind.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[psychoswooper 2]

Kinda dealing with this same issue this weekend. Former staff TM & coach intentionally swooped directly at a group of spectators who were well outside of the landing area. The group included 4 toddlers 2-4 yrs old & a baby in a carriage. He came within arms length of them. I told him to go home & think about what he had just done & walked away.
Another staff member told me he looked at them, hunched his shoulders & gave him that kind of "what's that all about" look.
The same guy does all kinds of similar things although this was the most dangerous to date.
Mostly, it seems to many of the jumpers at the DZ that his constant need for attention overrides any sense of judgement or common sense. He's the guy that "just doesn't get it" or even understand what "It' is, no matter how many people try to tell him. He always has an excuse.

[rehmwa 2]

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I told him to go home

We need more in charge like you. Thanks

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[airtwardo 7]

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That guy is dead now. A good friend of his is also dead. Friends of both of them have spent a lot of time and tears thinking about what they could have said or done to prevent the accident. Funny thing is, there is no shortage of the things that could have been said or done. The only problem is that No one did any of those things.

Worth repeating...

I AM my brother keeper?

We all should be!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[GreenLight 8]

In reply to original poster.

At least you still have groundings. Unlike the place I jump at. People have gotten about as dangerous as you can get at my DZ and nothing is being done about it. All 3 S&TAs have a financial interest in the DZ so no one is ever disciplined.

I just read about the 4 fatalities involving collisions in Parachutist Mag. This seems to be the latest way to die in this sport. Pure stupidity. Normally I would chalk it off to 4 less dummies to worry about. But the problem is that even if I do everything right I can still be taken out by one of these dummies that INSIST on doing high performance landings in the GENERAL LANDING AREA!

When will the DZOs learn that even thought they have us waivered to death, they are still responsible to make every effort to keep people safe and that means providing a SAFE landing area for all who use it. Swoops and hook turns should be OUTLAWED in the main landing areas. And if you break that law you are GROUNDED. 2nd offense is a ban from the DZ.

I promise all you DZOs this.... IF I am ever injured due to some jerk pulling a stunt like that and taking me out, I will sue your brains out for gross neglegence. You know that it is dangerous to allow this type of activity and yet you continue to do NOTHING about it.

I and most of my OLDER friends land way out in the dirt and do everything we can to avoid the majority of the other "jumpers". It's safer that way. Too bad the old guys who have the biggest problem walking long distances have to land way the hell out in the middle of nowhere just to survive the landing.

Of course the way we got old in the first place was by NOT being stupid. Now it seems that common sense tells me to get the hell out of the sport before some idiot comes along and kills me.

Again, at least your DZO cares enough to warn people and ground them when needed. Mine could care less if I live or die.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[billvon 2,998]

>All 3 S&TAs have a financial interest in the DZ so no one is ever disciplined.

Yep, that's one thing we hope to address with a BSR. Without one, a place like that can ignore people who complain, or give them the brushoff. It's a lot harder to ignore people who say "enforce this BSR, please, it's right here in black and white."

[yardhippie 0]

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Again, at least your DZO cares enough to warn people and ground them when needed. Mine could care less if I live or die.

You have two choices.
1) Stand up and do something about it.
2) Take your business elsewhere.

If its as bad as you say, you're not alone. Find those who are likeminded and approach the DZO/S&TAs "in force". If its still no help, pack your bags. You dont have to jump there.

I opted for #1 at our DZ. Im in contact weekly with the DZO and S&TA now about piloting how to make our DZ safer for ALL pilots, and I dont have any ratings.

The reason its come to this, is too many have just sat by and let these attitudes happen. You can make a difference!

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[riggerrob 643]

I just read about the 4 fatalities involving collisions in Parachutist Mag. .... Pure stupidity. ... But the problem is that even if I do everything right I can still be taken out by one of these dummies that INSIST on doing high performance landings in the GENERAL LANDING AREA!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

At Pitt Meadows, we have two and a half designated landing patterns.

Swoopers are encouraged to fly predictable patterns towards the designated swoop lane.

Meanwhile, the majority of skydivers fly predictable, rectangular patterns towards the main landing area.

Finally, old-school accuracy competitors are pretty good about separating themselves - both vertically and time-wise - from regular traffic, so there is little need to say anything to them.

Skydivers who are too arrogant, selfish, lazy, stupid, etc. - to fly a predictable pattern - are encouraged to land at the alternate, which is forty miles down the road!

[chrismgtis 0]

It seems to me that such arrogance, ignorance and stupidity isn't something you want to purposely have when you're a skydiver. I mean, giving other jumpers a reason to be really pissed off at you just doesn't indicate the ability to think clearly.

It's one thing to be arrogant to a McDonald's employee that might spit on your cheeseburger, but it's entirely another to piss off a bunch of skydivers.

I think if I was pissing off a lot of jumpers I would be apologizing and buying lots of beer.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[billvon 2,998]

>I mean, giving other jumpers a reason to be really pissed off at you
>just doesn't indicate the ability to think clearly.

Often that's not how they see it. They are "standing up for their rights." It's not their fault if other jumpers "are afraid of people who can fly high performance canopies." Other jumpers just don't understand that they can pull low "because their mains are really reliable." Those other jumpers just don't understand.

It's not their fault that people are mad at them. They're just misunderstood - and their friends still support them. So often it has little to do with