kinda weird

[Skyrad 0]

Scary shock news, while American servicemen gave their lives in WWII, America didn't win the war on their own!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Phil 0]

oooohhhh yyyeeesss - let's go and destroy all evil.

and after a sucessful mission the cursader comes back and sings:

[with pink floyd's singers voice] hello, is there anybody out there? [/with pink ployd's singer voice]

to find out, that all others are gone...

how fun.


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how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[happythoughts 0]

"Scary shock news, while American servicemen gave their lives in WWII, America didn't win the war on their own! "
We need to say a quick "thanks" to the French for providing bombing grids for the Germans to park on.

[rushmc 23]

Some people just do not want to have an honest
debate with someone who disagrees with them.

Too bad.........
A closed mind is a cold, lonely place.

God Bless America

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Phil 0]

The ground on which a honest debate can take place would be the one, where all parties a treated as equals and every opinion gets it's stand. I found this to be almost impossible, when certain subjects come up.

It's always: I'm right, you're wrong and there seems to be very little room for a critical opinion. - If you don't agree, you're against us and so you are our enemy! [saying this with a very dramatic voice]

Not everything is black or white.

Just seems like talking to a fucking brick wall.

A closed mind in my view is a mind that gives no room for someone else ideas...

Maybe you can elaborate on what a honest debate is? And please not in red/white/blue but with facts.

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how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[rushmc 23]

I only responded to your sarcastic reply. I am interested in why others think as they do. It is a great way to learn about my perspective and how it compares others viewpoints.

I do not think compliance or agreement should, or can be, the goal of the debate. Insight is all, in most cases, that can hope to be accomplished.

Using sarcasm to reply to an idea does not support an honest exchange of ideas.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Phil 0]

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Its not just cream that floats to the top

You're right - but then again - it might be the only thing thats left to help someone to understand, that just by copying someone else point of view won't fix the problem.

And what scares me even more, is when I start to feel, that people don't have their own opinion anymore, but just follow the piper...

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how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[rushmc 23]

"And what scares me even more, is when I start to feel, that people don't have their own opinion anymore, but just follow the piper... "

I do agee with you there.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ADRNALN 0]

Americans are America!!!!!!!

[happythoughts 0]

"And what scares me even more, is when I start to feel, that people don't have their own opinion anymore, but just follow the piper... "
What scares me more ? People who do nothing. Best example---> Bill Clinton.

[Schroeder 0]

That scares you more? I'd much rather make no action, than a potentionally mis-informed, wrong one just because we can be so easily led. That's scary you know, that some people would sooner run about with their swords, than hold on a sec, and figure out who to kill. Reminds me of that monty python sketch where they run around the castle killing everyone.... lol, ok, now I'm smiling again.

If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me?

[Skyrad 0]

British view: Hmm interesting post.
American view: Your obviously a terrorist AND a European (Ungrateful Mother Fu*ker) no doubt you've spoken to an A'rab at some point and are brainwashed. Best we bomb your terrorist pinko commie camel loving ass!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[PhillyKev 0]

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The ground on which a honest debate can take place would be the one, where all parties a treated as equals and every opinion gets it's stand. I found this to be almost impossible, when certain subjects come up.

It's always: I'm right, you're wrong and there seems to be very little room for a critical opinion. - If you don't agree, you're against us and so you are our enemy! [saying this with a very dramatic voice]

Not everything is black or white.

Just seems like talking to a fucking brick wall.

A closed mind in my view is a mind that gives no room for someone else ideas...

Maybe you can elaborate on what a honest debate is? And please not in red/white/blue but with facts.

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I've stayed out of this debate, but I'd just like to make an observation. You may see the pov of the Americans as one sided and non-yielding, but that's also how you are coming across. The majority of your posts include blanket statements based on your perception of Americans that you are getting from the media. It seems to me that your mind is the one that is closed. You portray Americans as blind followers who have a holier than thou attitude. Some of the political decisions of our representatives may be hypocritcal, but it's unfair to attribute that attitude to everyone in our nation.

Did ALL Swiss set up bank accounts for Nazi's to store plunder from the Jews and then steal it when the war ended? If I had your attitude toward the Swiss that you apparently have of us, I would probably believe so.

[ADRNALN 0]

That is just not true.

The American view is not kill 'em all let God sort 'em out. If that is what you think about americans, then you are the media brain-washed citizen.

We are not the war hungry masses we made out to be by the Euro press.

[Skyrad 0]

I was joking dude.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Phil 0]

Ok - let's be more precise about what I'm trying to say. Being happily married to an American for over 16 years I have grown to love America and the American people (this is no bullshit !)

But where I will have a strong feeling against the US, is when the US government can tell me what I can do and what not.

Who in the fucking hell gave the US justice the right to rule over what my country might have or might have not done during WWII?

By getting blackmailed "you pay or we block all assets of your banks and " that is no way that the rights like "innocent until proven guilty" will apply. Yes my government didn't have the guts to stand tall and gave in before the facts came out. What was found was a joke in regards to the claims that stood against it. At least we gave back what belonged to someone else. It didn't happen in the States. All the looting that took place by US troops has not and will not be paid back to the Countries/people involved.

Switzerland never had to ask the US for a favor and hopefully we will be able to support ourselves when ever needed. We are not perfect far from it, but we don't expect others to rule for us. And that is exactly what the US is doing.

An example: Do you know, that if anybody outside the US wants to buy US equities, they have to let the IRS know who they are, because if they don't, they will lose 33 % of the sales proceed. Try to do the same thing in return and you're up for a hell of a ride.

Go and check out all the trading issues that are being fought at the WTO.

Look at the UN. Only if the UN will vote the way the US wants it to vote, they will not put a veto in, or they will just stop paying. If everybody would follow that pattern, the UN would be out of business within weeks.

Yes all the old bad guys are gone (Russia etc) the enemy has a new invisible form and is a lot more dangerous than ever before, but still - before we're going to flatten something somewhere lets consider the possible outcome of our actions.

We have dealt with terrorism in Europe for the last 30 years and still do and I'm sorry to say that some of these sick fucks where sponsored by the US (e.g. IRA in Ireland).

So now you had the misfortune to get a brutal awakening to what we had to deal with for a long time. Welcome to the real world.

Hey and Oklahoma? - Was that an outside or an inside job?

You never had a war in your own country we had 2 within a very short amount of time and others at very close range.

Yes the US has done great things for a lot of countries in this world, but then again they fucked a lot of them up pretty bad too. (Chile, Central America, Vietnam).

This will get us nowhere unless we try to get to the root of the issue and that is RESPECT.

We obviously can not expect someone who is starving in his hole to have any respect for us, if he knows that we are responsible, that he is starving and we won't do a damn thing about it because he is an enemy to our allies.

There is a zero tolerance towards ANY criticism towards the US, but boy you can dish out against everybody and everything.

That is not patriotism but blindness.

Do I hate the US - no!
Do I hate you - no!
But I don't accept everything the US tries to feed me and wants me to do or not do and thats my right as a open minded non US citizen. Take it or stick it.

This is nothing personal because if I could, I would sit right next to you on the next load and do a jump with you anytime, then talk some more about our various views on things. And that my friend is the beauty of the countries we both live in. The freedom to express ourselves and to live our dreams.

go in peace and jump with joy

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how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[PhillyKev 0]

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There is a zero tolerance towards ANY criticism towards the US, but boy you can dish out against everybody and everything.

That is not patriotism but blindness.

Again, you're making blanket quotes. There are certain individuals who have that zero tolerance attitude. My problem is that you claim we all do. I don't blindly support every decision the US makes, in fact I'm not in favor of a lot of them, including the majority of our mid-east policy. And neither are a lot of other people. You're seeing what the media wants you to see. People who are rabidly pro-US no matter what (yes, they do exist), but that's not everyone, nor even the majority. We love our country and will defend our way of life (meaning freedom and democracy) as I'm sure you would as well. Just look how defensive you got when I took a jab at Switzerland. I just think you're being a little overly harsh and crititicizing the US populatation carte blanche and not necessarily the policies of our government.

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But I don't accept everything the US tries to feed me and wants me to do or not do and thats my right as a open minded non US citizen. Take it or stick it.

Neither do I, and that is MY right as a US citizen.

And by the way, in no way did the US gov't. ever sponsor the IRA. Some individuals or private groups may have made donations, but there was not governement sponsorship (although we have sponsored terrorists elsewhere).

[Phil 0]

I guess you might have missed an important statement I made earlier.

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Yo- go easy on the furniture here! It's not because the "class politique" sucks, that all Americans will fall under the same category.

I DO clearly distinguish between the American people and US politics - maybe I should write in german, would be easier to bring my point across, but nevermind.

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And by the way, in no way did the US gov't. ever sponsor the IRA

Fine so be it, but lets be fair, is there a difference between not doing it, but knowing that it's happening and not stopping it? And it was/is an Ally of yours for heavens sake that has to suffer because of it.

This would be the same like if some Canadian groups are financing Bin Laden and the government knows about it but doesn't stop it. The US would be all over the canucks.

So the US sponsors terrorism and do it here but not there. You will have to explain that one to me. When is it ok to finance terrorism? Unfortunately you just learned that it will backfire sooner or later and blow up in your backyard.

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how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[PhillyKev 0]

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I guess you might have missed an important statement I made earlier.


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Yo- go easy on the furniture here! It's not because the "class politique" sucks, that all Americans will fall under the same category.

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I DO clearly distinguish between the American people and US politics - maybe I should write in german, would be easier to bring my point across, but nevermind.

Yes, I did miss that. We probably do just have a case of mis-interpretation because of language differences. I think you'll see from the other political discussion on here that most of us don't think that our government (any government for that matter) is without fault. But I do find the a lot of non-Americans view us as a country of bullies and I deny that. It seemed you were making that accusation, if you weren't, I appoligize for misunderstanding.

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This would be the same like if some Canadian groups are financing Bin Laden and the government knows about it but doesn't stop it. The US would be all over the canucks.

This is actually exactly what's been happening, and not only in Canada, but Germany, Britain, and a lot of other countries. Now we are getting on everyone else's backs about it (and rightly so) including ourselves in regard to the the internal groups here that fund the IRA.

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So the US sponsors terrorism and do it here but not there. You will have to explain that one to me. When is it ok to finance terrorism? Unfortunately you just learned that it will backfire sooner or later and blow up in your backyard.

I never stated it was ever ok, just stating a fact. And I believe it already has blown up in our faces.

[jfields 0]

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When is it ok to finance terrorism?

Many countries sponsor terrorism, in one way or another. In saying that, I'm including the US, where I live. So does/did England, France, Canada, Germany, Israel, Russia, China, etc.

We support revolutions, insurgents, and lots of other folks that we think are aligned with our idealogy at the time. One of the problems is that things don't always remain that way. The other problem is the differentiation between "Terrorist", "Freedom Fighter" and "Army". Basically, there is none if you are on the other side of the gun from them.

[happythoughts 0]

"The other problem is the differentiation between "Terrorist", "Freedom Fighter" and "Army". Basically, there is none if you are on the other side of the gun from them."
Chairman Mao once said "Once man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist". He was talking about perspective. Irregular tactics make you a terrorist ? What about American revolutionary soldiers shooting at those pesky Brits from behind trees ? Not done in polite soldiering.
Palestinians use people to transport bombs. Perhaps if someone gave them some airplanes, it would be more formal, then they wouldn't be terrorists ?
They kill civilians? It's just a tactic to either inflict pointless pain or make the business climate untenable so that the powers-that-be have to negotiate or vacate. (IRA, Red Brigades, too). Governments do it. Germany-London, England-Dresden, US-Hiroshima. It seems to work. Reduce the will to contend by hitting the homeland.
"For the high crime of murder, I am condemned. For the wholesale genocide of a people, I am a hero." - Seneca the Elder
People murder each other for profit, morality, any reason. That is war. Organized murder. At the end of the war, the winners write a history book declaring themselves morally pure. There is no right or wrong side to me. There is my side and the people trying to kill me are wrong. Some people think America shouldn't use its prodigous might to step on the cockroaches who hit the WTC because it isn't fair. There is no fair, just who is left.

[billvon 2,989]

>Fine so be it, but lets be fair, is there a difference between not doing
> it, but knowing that it's happening and not stopping it? And it was/is
> an Ally of yours for heavens sake that has to suffer because of it.

Yes, there is a huge difference. We can not be, and should not be, the world's cops. You cannot discriminate against blacks in the US if you're a company, for example. If they do that in Uzbekistan? We can condemn them for it, complain about it etc. but it's THEIR country, not ours. They make their own rules.

>So the US sponsors terrorism and do it here but not there. You will
> have to explain that one to me. When is it ok to finance terrorism?

When someone thinks it will harm an enemy. Never works very well. Right now we're spending millions training and organizing the Kurds and other Iraqi opposition groups. Eventually that training will be used against us.

[quatorze 1]

we= american democratic process, and don't start with the chads please... I trust a machine without any political affilliation than a person

PS write in vote John McCain

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[kmcguffee 0]

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When u go to america, everyone loves Bush, or at least most of them do.
But if u go to europe, nobody likes him, most even hate him.

Man, you ferners don't like bush? Do you prefer them shaved or are you all gay boys?



OK........................its late.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[quatorze 1]

You never had a war in your own country...

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WHAT? The American Civil War? More Americans killed in one day of fighting ( Battle of Antietam) than in the entire Vietnam war. Aw hell, there are even Europeans that come across the pond to take part in our re-enactmens.

And to the previous post about help in WWII, you are right... in the European theater if operations the Russians carried the brunt of the blow, Hitler would have lasted a lot longer if not for that big red bear. In the Pacific theater of operations, the US Marines carried that one, granted with help from the US Navy, Austrailians, New Zelanders and the indigenous(sp) tribes of the Pacific, but none the less the US Marines. To all you Marines out there I say one thing..."Simper Fi!"

Know your history and or you are bound to repeat it

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

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