OSOK 0 #1 June 7, 2007 Does anyone have the statistics about student incidents that occur under canopy between those that go through AFF and those that go through IAF? Just curious... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 June 7, 2007 Is that your way to face your fears by reading statistics? Just curious... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #3 June 7, 2007 What do you mean by "IAF?" If you are referring to IAD (Instructor Assisted Deployment), IAD probably has a fewer incidents under canopy ... primarily because we force IAD students to concentrate on canopy skills early in the program. i.e. "After you demonstrate a few good landings, I will introduce you to the (PFF) freefall instructors." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #4 June 7, 2007 QuoteWhat do you mean by "IAF?" If you are referring to IAD (Instructor Assisted Deployment), IAD probably has a fewer incidents under canopy ... primarily because we force IAD students to concentrate on canopy skills early in the program. i.e. "After you demonstrate a few good landings, I will introduce you to the (PFF) freefall instructors." That's what we do. IAD to the C&P followed by AFF. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WatchYourStep 0 #5 June 7, 2007 IAF is Instructor Assisted Freefall. It's a different progression scheme then straight AFF. I did it and enjoyed it. We do three tandems and then start student jumps with one AFF instructor instead of two. There is a ground school in between the tandems prior to the first solo. I liked it a lot and we did a lot of work under canopy while on the tandem jumps. "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoilingMidnight 0 #6 June 7, 2007 QuoteIs that your way to face your fears by reading statistics? Just curious... Is that your way of feeling superiour by greeting a new skydiver's innocent question with a veiled insult? Just curious..."Iþ ik qiþa izwis, ni andstandan allis þamma unseljin." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #7 June 7, 2007 Are you aqusing me with Thoughtcrime, Big Brother? Statistics do not matter as long you are not a part of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoilingMidnight 0 #8 June 7, 2007 QuoteAre you aqusing me with Thoughtcrime, Big Brother? Statistics do not matter as long you are not a part of it. No less brotherly than your own pointed question. But now that we know "statistics do not matter", all forms of health, life and car insurance can be eliminated, along with every safety qualification. Thank you sir. I will inform the pääministeri."Iþ ik qiþa izwis, ni andstandan allis þamma unseljin." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,317 #9 June 7, 2007 Oh my... S/L IUD AAD PLF DRP DRCP PRCP IAD AFF AFP Now, IAF (although I kinda like this better than AFP) 'nuff acronyms to make any student need CPR after two trips to the DZ. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OSOK 0 #10 June 8, 2007 Like WatchYourStep said, IAF consists of 3 tandem jumps and then 6 levels to pass AFF style, with only one instructor. It comes in handy in a busy DZ because you require only one instructor, and it's cheaper than AFF too. I'm way past student training, so I don't ask for myself... I'm just curious as to what the numbers for both are. I went through IAF myself. Since so many people are hurting themselves under canopy, including students, I think it's a great idea to make those first three canopy rides with an instructor on your back. It's something I've been meaning to ask for a while but never did, and reading the current incident of the student turning too low made me curious once again. So back to the original question... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,317 #11 June 8, 2007 I understand. I got my rating as a TI at Spacelend and the owner is one of the people who developed the AFP (IAF) program and taught me how to implement it. I think it is an awesome program and had it been developed before AFF, I doubt there would be AFF. (Paraphrasing some one else's logic). I took that program and made a couple of changes (when I had a 182 DZ), we did three learning tandems, FJC, then two IADs (which satisifies the low altitude exit and focuses on canopy control), then went back to the top with a AFF Instructor for a CAT C dive. That's the beauty of the ISP program. It's about getting the A License in 25 dives, not about soloing in 7-8 dives. It's been my experreince that there's less stress on the student and higher student retention by focusing on 25 dives. Students don't have to "flunk" a dive, they just remain in a Category until the TLO's are met.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OSOK 0 #12 June 8, 2007 BiGun, you nailed it. And not only is it easier on the student, but which would you say is better for the under-canopy section of every skydive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #13 June 8, 2007 QuoteDoes anyone have the statistics about student incidents that occur under canopy between those that go through AFF and those that go through IAF? Just curious... Would you be looking for statistics on students at comparable jump numbers? The comparison would be somewhat meaningless otherwise. At that stage there is a huge difference between jump #1 and jump #10, for example. It's "conventional wisdom" that static line students (similar to I-A-whatever i guess) are "better" at canopy control at first (because it's pretty much all they have to focus on at first) but i'm pretty sure after a certain number of jumps it all comes out in the wash.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RB_Hammer 0 #14 June 8, 2007 Quote It's "conventional wisdom" that static line students (similar to I-A-whatever i guess) are "better" at canopy control at first (because it's pretty much all they have to focus on at first) but i'm pretty sure after a certain number of jumps it all comes out in the wash. I have read that several times and I can't understand the logic. I took AFF, and I know that each jump had a canopy ride. I also know that I was in the saddle higher than the static line students even exit. This gave me more time under canopy than the static line students. "I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late." Mathew Quigley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnskydiver688 0 #15 June 8, 2007 I would say it all depends on how much the student cares about the canopy ride. There are plenty of S/L students I have seen that just wait for the guy/gal on the radio and really doesn't seem interested in learning canopy control. So I think because every skydive ends with a canopy ride as was mentioned above it just depends on how much a student wants to learn about canopy control.Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OSOK 0 #16 June 9, 2007 In IAF you have the instructor attached to you... which beats any radio communication of any kinda. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,317 #17 June 9, 2007 QuoteI have read that several times and I can't understand the logic. I took AFF, and I know that each jump had a canopy ride. I also know that I was in the saddle higher than the static line students even exit. It has to do with the psychology of learning, not the instructional methodology. We all know that each dive has an exit, dive-flow, canopy control and landing. However, for the first few dives for S/L students, it's about 4 seconds of exit & dive flow and about the 3-4 minutes of canopy control. It's about how they organize their thoughts to the majority of the time spent after exiting the aircraft.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #18 June 9, 2007 Quote I would say it all depends on how much the student cares about the canopy ride. There are plenty of S/L students I have seen that just wait for the guy/gal on the radio and really doesn't seem interested in learning canopy control. So I think because every skydive ends with a canopy ride as was mentioned above it just depends on how much a student wants to learn about canopy control. Hm, where i did SL, we had bats on our first jump and then we were on our own from the 2nd one! Nothing like that to focus the mind Probably helped that it was a huge DZ with very soft ground, but I am not aware of many incidents at all with low jump # students there (certainly none that i saw in my time there) My current DZ assists students for their first few jumps, but then the LZ is a lot smaller.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
