rehash: god and pledge of alliegance.

[AndyMan 7]

Salon.com has published an opinion piece which I think comes close to explaining why taking the god reference out of the Pledge of Allegiance might be a good thing.

An intersting excertp: " I think the real reason for the outrage at the thought of taking the words out is that most believers are furious that some people are offended by being instructed to utter the simplest, most basic tenet of their belief."

Classroom karaoke

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[reprobate 0]

I had to learn the Pledge twice! I was in school when the "under God" words were added. I don't remember any discussion, pro or con, about adding it. My Father was a minister and missionary, a WWII Marine and he and my Mother had many dinner table conversations about all sorts of things but I am not even sure he paid any attention to it.

The only thing the school did was teach the new form.

When I went into the National Guard in 1954 there was a questionaire to be answered concerning membership in Communist front organizations but I have only learned now that they were the reason for inserting a referance to God in the Pledge as it was believed a Communist would choke on the words!

In my opinion, leaving the words in it will make it more acceptable to all but Atheists as belief in God is about the only thing uniting Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus.

Carl

[billvon 3,070]

>In my opinion, leaving the words in it will make it more acceptable to
> all but Atheists as belief in God is about the only thing uniting
> Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus.

Uh, not quite - Hindus believe in several gods, so you'd have to change it to "under gods" to bring the hindus in line with other acknowledged american religions. Presumably, changing it to "under gods" would also get rid of the current "whose god is it referring to, anyway?" question and offend no one but atheists and agnostics.

[blondeflyer7 0]

Bill......if they don't believe why sould they care anyways do they feel threatened????? to them it should be just a word......to many alot more, so let it stand as is and deal with it

[AndyMan 7]

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Bill......if they don't believe why sould they care anyways do the feel threatened?????

Did you read the article I posted? I thought that explained pretty eloquently why they DO feel threatened.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[blondeflyer7 0]

ok let them feel threatened!!!!!!!!! Thats thier choice but its been the pledge for many years! If they choose not to believe that is why we are americans we believe how we want and that should be the way they should look at it... not as being defensive.

[skymut 0]

As a christian, if they change the pledge or ban it, or whatever, it's no threat to my beliefs. If they want to ban it/change it, go right ahead - it's like the prayer in school thing, even if it was outlawed, it didn't keep me or my friends from praying in school, if we felt the need.
The one thing that sort of throws me off about this case is the way this guy is using his daughter to accomplish something that he desires to see happen. I saw an interivew with the guy, and it really seems to be HIM who has the problem with God, not his daughter.

Matt
A well-informed person is somebody who has the same views and opinions as yours.

[blondeflyer7 0]

Right on the money Matt!!!!!!!!!

[JohnnyD 0]

Allow me to give an atheist point of view (these are as varied as much as religious points of view). I don't feel threatened at all by the pledge of allegiance. This country was founded, in part, on religious freedom. Mine happens to be a lack thereof. If you keep that in mind, along with realizing the "Under God" was put into the pledge in the 50's, its presence is quite understandable and a piece of American history. I have the freedom to not believe in any god, thanks to our fore fathers. Why not preserve American history and just get over being offended at every little thing you see and hear.

[blondeflyer7 0]

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and just get over being offended at every little thing you see and hear.

Thats what I mean I'm not being defensive in any way I'm just saying let the words stand and not let them get to you.

[billvon 3,070]

>Bill......if they don't believe why sould they care anyways do they
>feel threatened?????

Who? The atheists? The issue there is that they don't believe in god. Imagine having to say "Under Vishnu" in some sort of pledge you were required to learn in school. Would that bug you, even if you don't believe in Vishnu?

Or did you mean the hindus? The issue there is that they believe in more than one god, so "under god" is sort of exclusive to judeo-christian religions.

>to many alot more, so let it stand as is and deal with it

Well, it was originally not there - we changed it back in the 50's to add "under god" to fight the damn communists.

But in essence I agree with you. It is really not defensible to put a reference to god in any national song, pledge or saying. But the ones that are already there are now part of our heritage, and I don't think it is worth changing to prevent potential offense. If it remains a big issue, I think we should just issue a national proclamation that if you don't want to say the "under god" part you don't have to. Or you can say "under gods" if you want to. That way people can do whatever makes them feel better, without revising part of our history that is very important to a lot of people.

[DickMcMahon 0]

The simple solution to all this is ...
just insert the word "possibly" before
the words "under God".
______________

[sar911 0]

It has already been upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States that any person that feels offended by or does not want to recite the Pledge of Allegiance does not have to.

[Zennie 0]

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just insert the word "possibly" before the words "under God".

As the token agnostic, I like that!

I really don't feel threatened by the references to God in the pledge of allegiance, or being printed on money, or when taking oaths. I guess I view it as more of a longstanding tradition than an imposition of religious values. Actually, in some ways, making a pledge to any entity, particularly a government, is far more dangerous than a reference to God within the pledge.

I'm living with a couple who are very devout Christians. They pray at the table before eating and I say "amen" with them. They know my religious (dis)orientation and I have never felt threatened in any way by participating in the pre-meal prayer. My "amen" is basically to affirm the sentiments of the prayer, not the belief in God.

I don't have a problem with kids bringing their bibles to school. As long as they don't try to pressure others they have a right to read whatever they want.

I draw the line at the recent case involving the pre-football game prayer led by one of the band members who was a devout Baptist. Sort of for the same reason I felt uncomfortable when I'd go to Catholic Mass with my wife... I can't in good conscience recite the Apostles Creed because I don't believe those things. I'd be uttering a lie in a church of all places. Yet I feel uncomfortable being the only one not saying these things when surrounded by others who are. Same deal with the pre-game invocation. It's my understanding that people in the audience were also participating, and that's when pressure is felt by those who don't participate. And I don't condone that in a government-sanctioned setting.

And unlike my Christian friends who know me, understand me and accept me, the people at church and at a football game don't know me from Adam. You just feel pressure to conform in those settings, and you shouldn't have to.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[n2skdvn 0]

" I pledge alegance to a flag
witch is supposed to represent america
and to the distrusting for witch it falls
a natation under somthing(witch might be a god or not)
totaly divided
with no liberty
or justice
for anyone"

can this country find any more bullsh*t to bicker about
this country is destroying it self from the inside out
ever heard of divide and conqure well thats whats happening. Were so divided that we have gone blind to the reast of the world! Lets put our diffrences aside and start working together! we have people out there that hate us for who we are,and want to kill us for being an american.(i hate getting political in the forums but im tired of every one fighting amongst ourselves. were skydivers!!!we've had enough threads locked lately!) peace on earth
jumps for every one!

if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
my site

[Zennie 0]

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i hate getting political in the forums but im tired of every one fighting amongst ourselves. were skydivers!!!we've had enough threads locked lately!

There's a difference between a healthy debate and fighting. Fighting connotes anger, and I generally don't get angry with those who disagree with me. Heck, I've changed my mind on a lot of things because someone presented a view on an issue that I hadn't considered.

You ought to see me and my Dad go at it. People think we're fighting but neither of us is angry and both of us enjoy the discussion.

I can't speak for the others here, but this thread (or really any other) hasn't angered me. I was just presenting my take on the issue. People are free to take it or leave it... agree or disagree. Doesn't bother me.

Maybe people are taking my long diatribes the wrong way. I try to present my views in as non-confrontational and even tone as I can. I tend to be a lttle long-winded not because I'm upset, but because I want to clearly express where I'm coming from.

I view these things as educational opporunities (for myself and others). It's all good.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[rhino 0]

Rhino is getting hot under the collar..

Breath.... Breath... Breath....

o.k.

I am a patriot. I love my country and the people in it. I love people. I am a christian and damn proud of it.

Our freedom of speech must be protected.

Our freedom of religion must be protected.

The Pledge of Allegiance will and has to remain the same. If you don't pledge allegiance to your country that is o.k. Patriots do giving the rest of you a right not to. Just remember that. If it wasn't for those that DO pledge allegiance to the flag none of us would have the right not to.

You can pledge allegiance to being a nice person.. To being a great Dad or Husband. It is neither here nor there.

Be a good person.. Do good things for your neighbor. Arabic, Hindu, Indian, Black, Chinese, White.. Just be a good person.

You have the right to pledge allegiance in school. You also have a right not to have it shoved down your throat if you are an atheist or if you think God and country don't mix. You have that right.

But in todays day and age I think it is better to support those of us that do pledge allegiance to the flag and our country than the alternative. If you don't want to fine.. But let those who do shine. Because standing for something like God and country is better than standing for nothing and trying to take the spark out of those who do give a damn..

Rob

[AndyMan 7]

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You have the right to pledge allegiance in school. You also have a right not to have it shoved down your throat if you are an atheist or if you think God and country don't mix. You have that right.

I think that's exactly the point - in places like California, they DON'T have the rights you just mentioned. Students are required to recite. Even if they were given the option of remaining silent, I think that would still qualify as having it shoved down their throat.

BTW - I don't really have strong feelings either way. Since I don't plan on ever getting my US citizenship, it really isn't an issue for me either way. I do think it's a very interesting debate. I will say that I'm completely fascinated at how strongly people believe in words that were only written 30 years ago.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[FreeflyGoat 0]

When I was in Boy Scouts we would always have to say the pledge and a few other recitations that included pledges to god. I always felt very nervous and pressured when skipping over the god part. Everybody in my troop was Catholic except me and I was affraid I would get in trouble. My point is that I should not have felt pressured to recite sentences to god. Everytime I did I felt like I was lying to everybody in the room.
I will pledge allegience to my country and fight for it if it came down to it but i will not fight nor pledge for your god.
If "under God" was just added in the 50's then it shouldnt be that bad taking it out. There are people who remember it the old way.
This country is about FREEDOM.
Religion is about taking away FREEDOMS.
I am so sick of it being shoved onto me.

_________________________
goat
derka jerka bukkake jihad

[sar911 0]

What freedom does the USA take away by allowing you to have the choice in religious beliefs or not? A lack of conviction on your part does not constitute pressure on theirs. It is not being shoved on you if you have the right not to participate. Scouting membership is a voluntary privilege not a constitutional right.

[Zennie 0]

I figured I'd prolly rankle some people with my comments.

There's a very fine line between patriotism (which is honorable) and mindless nationalism (which is extremely dangerous).

I'm as grateful to live in this country as anyone, and I'm grateful for the sacrifices that have been made to protect those freedoms. And if those freedoms were threatened I'd do what I could (I still have a problem with killing) to protect them. But I also won't just blindly do what the government (i.e. politicians) say I should do. I won't blindly agree that some action we take is good just because a bunch of politicians say so.

That isn't a commentary on any particular issue. And it isn't a commentary on this administration as opposed to any other ones. It's just a general sentiment of mine that I've had for years.

My point is that mindless nationalism is every much a threat to freedom as an invasion by an outside entity. Patriotism is fighting for the things which make our country great. There is a big, big difference.

Like I said, I don't have a personal problem with the pledge. But I can also see how Goat and others would feel uncomfortable being peer-pressured, if not forced, to utter something they didn't believe in. I mean, how do you think teachers and other students would react if a kid actually refused to recite it? I've felt it in the other context I mentioned, and trust me it isn't a very good feeling.

Just because I choose to not trust my government, because it's run by politicians with personal agendas, doesn't mean I'm not patriotic. Actually, now that I think of it, I'd prefer to pledge allegiance to the flag and what it stands for than to pledge allegiance to the federal government.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[rhino 0]

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My point is that mindless nationalism is every much a threat to freedom as an invasion by an outside entity. Patriotism is fighting for the things which make our country great. There is a big, big difference.

I agree..

I am honestly "thinking" about running for congress,,

Rhino

[SBS 0]

Our freedom of speech must be protected.

Our freedom of religion must be protected.

-----------------------

What is messed up is that it seems that these words apply to the people who believe in God, but nobody else. I agree that it's petty, and that it's a pain in the ass, but the arguement is valid...by the default pledge having the words under god, it is unconstitutional...if the words are omitted, though, it DOES NOT change the pledge to your flag and your country, regardless of where you think it comes from. Omission leaves nobody out...there is nobody that is the outsider, and everyone is free to believe what they want to believe as far as the origins of our nation.

The first half of the pledge is what matters, the rest is fluff.

I do agree also with the fact that this man is using his daughter as means to advance his own propoganda.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[PhillyKev 0]

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I am honestly "thinking" about running for congress

I think you have to be a registered voter to be a candidate

[rhino 0]

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!


LMAO!!!!!!!!